Waterman Pen ID

[fingertrouble]

Just bought this 1940's? vintage Waterman, trying to identify it as it doesn't have a model number. It is double ring and dark green and the nib is a fairly generic one, semi flex (no telltale W for instance or Ideal). It's dark green/olive.

So far my research has narrowed it down to:

502/503/513 - I thought the closest is 502, but they don't seem to have the metal lever box and clip is slightly different, 513 is very similar  - some 513s have a metal lever box and some don't - but the clip is different.
W2/W3/W5 - W2 doesn't have a metal lever box as far as I can see from pics online, neither seems to W3. W5 has a metal lever box, but tends to be fancier and have different rings.

Ruled out:
It is a lot like a Commando especially the clip, perfect match -  but it doesn't have the lucite 'end plug' and that didn't come in green according to Richard Binder? http://www.richardspens.com/ref/profiles/commando.htm I guess it is possible that this is a Commando top on another pen? The colours all match perfectly though, why I suspect it hasn't faded/darkened because it's uniform.
Dauntless/Starlet/Stalwart - the end of the body is rounded, not flattish like these.

I have found a few others sold who sold exactly the same pen, they were unsure what they were as well - listing it as a Commando (I think I have ruled that out or unmarked 502- http://greenfineused.com/gorgeous_waterman_pen_dark_green_full_flex_14k_fine_nib_england.html and https://tommyspens.blogspot.com/2012/12/waterman-commando-in-green-made-in.html

So Waterman detectives - what is it?
 

Edited February 19, 2021 by fingertrouble

[joss]

The only thing that I can add to your findings is that period (USA) advertisements show that the 'Waterman' imprint on that classic Waterman's clip appeared in December 1942 and the typical 5 grooved lines at the top of the clip appeared in December 1948. So that is a rough but substantiated estimation of the production period of your pen.

 

I am certainly not an expert on these pens but I agree with you that the pen resembles a Commando. It should be noted that your pen is English and English Waterman's pens may not fit completely (eg the green colour) in the range of USA made Waterman Commando pens as compiled by Richard Binder. I do not know whether the name 'Commando' was ever used for English Waterman pens. Unfortunately, English Waterman advertisements of this period are quite scarce.

[fingertrouble]

It does resemble a Commando apart from the end...all the picture of Commandos I've seen have the Lucite end or a squarer end.

Which makes me think more likely it's an early 513 or some W5/502/503 variant? I did wonder if the pen and top were mis-matched, if that is so, they are exactly the same colour, and have faded/darkened over time exactly the same.

That's very unlikely that someone got another pen from exactly the same batch!

Thanks for the dating though - mid 1940's, that helps.

Edited February 20, 2021 by fingertrouble

[fingertrouble]

And by the way, just dip testing and this is my favourite pen. Did not look much when I got it and the nib needed a little coaxing/love/reshaping but boy, it's a soft flex, maybe more than a semi flex but not extreme flex.

I have a Blackbird that flexes as much but that's a really firm nib. And sadly a Summit that turns out to be a really nice pen, but the nib is hard as nails. I love the look and feel of those hard rubber pens more...but this pen has the nib I want to draw with.

I really hope the feed and all that is good when I fix the sac.

Edited February 20, 2021 by fingertrouble

[Manofadventure]

It's a spitting image of my Waterman W3.

[shalitha33]

I'm no expert on this matter so don't quote me on this :(.

 

As far as i'm aware of, Its difficult to go with the fading on these. (i may be wrong, correct me pls). 

Blue 515 I have on the photo has even fading matching the pattern in cap and barrel when aligned. but the cap and barrel is from two very different pens.

un-numbered long lever pen's cap (black) cap and W2 cap (Gray) is interchangeable. They fit perfectly.   

How pointy / flat the end of the barrel is may help some one who know more to point to the model of the pen. also the total length of the pen.

 

 

Sorry i cant be of much use on this matter :(.

[fingertrouble]

Thanks! I can measure the pen later, it has a rounded end, unlike the Commandos/Starlets etc, and the cap is very similar to the bottom picture? Is that the unnumbered one?

So yes it could be the top of one and the bottom of another then....that said I've seen enough variance in W-series and 5-series to think they produced unnumbered end of lines or just mixed the pens up interchangeably during and after WW2.

Understandable since materials were scarce, they would just create a template pen or pens that was interchangeable and then brand it according to the extras - nib, clip, bands etc. I mean even the numbering and lettering (Bookkeeper, W2, etc) I have seen on barrels looks more etched in than cast.

Edited February 22, 2021 by fingertrouble

[fingertrouble]

On 2/20/2021 at 5:51 PM, Manofadventure said:

It's a spitting image of my Waterman W3.

Yes that is interesting - I looked at the W-series and was told the W3 didn't have the metal lever box - you see the difference in the picture shalitha33 posted? The first one has the metal around the lever, the second doesn't:
 

16 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

I

 

 

 

If yours is marked W3 and does have that metal lever box, then yes it could be an unmarked W3.

Edited February 22, 2021 by fingertrouble

[Manofadventure]

8 hours ago, fingertrouble said:

Yes that is interesting - I looked at the W-series and was told the W3 didn't have the metal lever box - you see the difference in the picture shalitha33 posted? The first one has the metal around the lever, the second doesn't:
 

 

If yours is marked W3 and does have that metal lever box, then yes it could be an unmarked W3.

My Waterman 515/Commando has a box lever mechanism, just like Shalitha's above.

 

My post war, economy range, W2 and W3, do not have box levers. I attach images of another W3 that I have in striated celluloid.

 

[sidthecat]

Funny...I've bought a couple of Commandos (I gave one to my boss) but neither had a Lucite end. They were a wartime model without fancy stuff like Lucite, which I'd imagine they needed for airplane windshields or something like that.