Kaweco nib wetter over time?

[ENewton]

About five years ago, I arrived at my office in downtown San Francisco in the morning and discovered that I had neglected to bring a fountain pen with me.  For the first few hours of the day, I attempted to write with a ballpoint pen, but before long I realized that to do so all day would be uncomfortable and distracting, so I set out for the local art-supply store, which carried a selection of fountain pens.  I had long considered buying a Kaweco Sport, because the design appealed to me, and the pen was relatively inexpensive, so I made the purchase.

 

As I've noted in other posts about the Kaweco, the nib was a disappointment, dry and with a tendency to skip on some strokes even after adjustment by a skilled person.  Worse yet, the nib had a thin, flimsy feel, like some of the cheap earrings that my daughter used to wear when she was in high school.  At first I used cartridges, then eventually discovered that using the pen as an eyedropper mitigated the dryness.

 

Years passed, and I didn't use the pen very often, except in the context of overseas travel.  I chose it for travel because it was a pen I wouldn't mind losing, and apart from leaking in a plane once, while I was still using cartridges, it served its purpose.

 

Then, about two years ago, a colleague gave me a bottle of De Atramentis Brilliant Violet with Copper, a shimmer ink that I didn't dare use in any of my more valued pens.  I loaded it into the Kaweco and was surprised to find that the pen now produced a lush stream of ink.  After that fill, I put the pen away and didn't use it again for more than a year, but recently I have begun to use it again on occasion, and at this point I would characterize the flow as notably wet.  At the moment, the pen is filled with TAG Kyoto Kyo-Iro Soft Snow of Ohara, and the line produced by its F nib is about twice as broad as the line produced by my Sailor 1911S M nib with the same ink.

 

Has anyone else had this experience with a Kaweco nib?  I have never, in my 25 years of fountain-pen use, had a nib change its behavior over time, and I write with such a light hand that pens commonly described as flex do not produce line variation for me, so it seems unlikely that the nib has deformed as a consequence of writing pressure.   

[TheDutchGuy]

Yes. I have a few similar experiences (and not just with Kaweco). I’ve come up with some possible explanations for it, but won’t bore you with that.

[ENewton]

32 minutes ago, TheDutchGuy said:

Yes. I have a few similar experiences (and not just with Kaweco). I’ve come up with some possible explanations for it, but won’t bore you with that.

 

Thank you.  It is inconceivable to me that I would be bored by your observations.

[TheDutchGuy]

There’s some kind of process going on, otherwise the pen would stay the same. In pens that need it, I use three well-known ways to speed up that process:

-remove nib & feed and thoroughly clean them in handwarm water with some dishwasing soap in it; flush with clean water to remove all traces of soap, dry, and re-assemble.

-if you use a converter, do the same with the inside of it.

-after cleaning and re-assembly, fill the pen from a bottle with the ink of your choice, do _not_ remove excess ink from the feed, carefully cap the pen and leave it standing nib-down for 24 or 48 hours. Then re-fill as usual and write with the pen for 30 minutes or so. Repeat the last step once, if needed.

 

Of course this assumes that the nib and feed themselves are OK. The third step involves ‘weaning’ the feed to the ink. Feeds are simply, tiny objects but the physics and the chemistry involved is far from simple. It’s a balance between forces, some of which are attractive and some of which are not.

 

 

[Tseg]

Only because I recently referenced my Kaweco in another thread, then inked it, then took a picture and still have my BB link in my computer clipboard, will I respond here.

 

I spent the extra $100+ for a (tiny) gold nib upgrade on my Brass Sport.  Out of the box it was dry and hard started.  It took effort to get the ink from the cartridge out the nib.  I ended up taking a brass shim to the nib to get the flow going.  While it now writes like a mechanical tool, it is not particularly expressive nor provides a luscious writing feel.  It also provides a fair bit of feedback, but now with good ink flow and no skips or hard starts.

 

What caught me off guard today was I syringe filled the mini-cartridge half way, re-assembled everything, and was thinking I may need a glass of water to get this going.  I put the nib to paper, maybe the first time in nearly a year, and it wrote perfectly, albeit, still lacking emotion and with more feedback than I prefer (but maybe the ink still has to "settle in"?).

 

[ENewton]

4 hours ago, Tseg said:

Only because I recently referenced my Kaweco in another thread, then inked it, then took a picture and still have my BB link in my computer clipboard, will I respond here.

 

I spent the extra $100+ for a (tiny) gold nib upgrade on my Brass Sport.  Out of the box it was dry and hard started.  It took effort to get the ink from the cartridge out the nib.  I ended up taking a brass shim to the nib to get the flow going.  While it now writes like a mechanical tool, it is not particularly expressive nor provides a luscious writing feel.  It also provides a fair bit of feedback, but now with good ink flow and no skips or hard starts.

 

What caught me off guard today was I syringe filled the mini-cartridge half way, re-assembled everything, and was thinking I may need a glass of water to get this going.  I put the nib to paper, maybe the first time in nearly a year, and it wrote perfectly, albeit, still lacking emotion and with more feedback than I prefer (but maybe the ink still has to "settle in"?).

 

 

How nice for you.  I have long been tempted by the Brass Sport, but I have such low expectations for the nib that I have never bought one.  

 

Had you ever tried Shin-Kai in the pen before?  I ask because I bought a Pelikan 140 in 2018.  It didn't skip, but it was dry and draggy for a year and a half, while I tried ink after ink, until finally I filled it with Iroshizuku Kujaku.   

[mtcn77]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:09 PM, Tseg said:

Only because I recently referenced my Kaweco in another thread, then inked it, then took a picture and still have my BB link in my computer clipboard, will I respond here.

 

I spent the extra $100+ for a (tiny) gold nib upgrade on my Brass Sport.  Out of the box it was dry and hard started.  It took effort to get the ink from the cartridge out the nib.  I ended up taking a brass shim to the nib to get the flow going.  While it now writes like a mechanical tool, it is not particularly expressive nor provides a luscious writing feel.  It also provides a fair bit of feedback, but now with good ink flow and no skips or hard starts.

 

What caught me off guard today was I syringe filled the mini-cartridge half way, re-assembled everything, and was thinking I may need a glass of water to get this going.  I put the nib to paper, maybe the first time in nearly a year, and it wrote perfectly, albeit, still lacking emotion and with more feedback than I prefer (but maybe the ink still has to "settle in"?).

 

Hi, same here. I had converted the pen into an eyedropper. I had set it aside. Now, I changed the nibs (it was extra fine before), cleaned it and put it back together. Success! It is writing just like a part of me. What do I do? I top it up with new ink up to the brim - now it is skippy and very inconsistent. Why on earth does the pen write normal when all others would be starting to leak and blob with a near empty barrel, but not write normally when it should with a full barrel of ink!

This is too much deliberation for what should be a simple process... I think this feed has air issues, or I couldn't wound the screws(since I haven't silicone greased the barrel) tightly. Sure enough, the section to barrel gap left an inky impression on my knuckle, which it only does when it leaked previously.

PS: forgot to check tine gap ink slit alignment. Now it writes full letters. I'm such an amateur.

[mtcn77]

I just got a brand new Kaweco broad nib. A slight update and a pointer that might sum up my experiences, I think ink bleedthrough really defines how good a nib is. Those with the least initial pressure to write don't bleedthrough and write instantly - at least after the initial occasional hardstart. Therefore, I think wetness is not as good a benchmark as bleedthrough.

[txomsy]

Sorry to disagree, but

 

My understanding (and note that I may very likely be wrong) and my individual and personal experience is that bleed-through is rather a function mainly of ink and paper, and to a lesser extent the pen (only in how much ink it delivers to paper).

 

The role of a nib in bleed-through is limited to the amount of ink deployed, with EF-F nibs delivering little ink (and making bleed-through less likely) and M-B-BB nibs delivering more ink and making it more likely.

 

Other factor in the pen/nib combination (and IMMHO more important) is the feeder, which may deliver more or less ink and make bleed-through more or less likely conversely (that is what is usually called a wet or dry pen).

 

But bleed-through is mostly dependent on ink and paper: It requires that ink permeates the paper and makes it to the opposite surface. Whether the ink is deployed with a syringe, and eyedropper, a cotton swab or a nib, is irrelevant if the amount of ink laid down per unit surface is the same.

 

What makes ink "cross" to the other side of the paper† is the quantity and time it is in contact with the paper (e.g. fast drying inks will have less chances, large blots of ink will have larger chances of "flooding" the paper), the permeability of the paper (e.g. plastic coated paper may be so impermeable as to not allow ink to get in contact with fibers --and even not allow writing), the material with respect to the ink (e.g. whether it absorbs or "repels" a given ink -as a function of relative ionic strengths, surface tensions, relative acidity), the "tightness" of the paper fibers (e.g. looser fibers may leave more space for ink to cross over), paper thickness (thicker paper results in a longer path for ink to travel to the other side), and a number of other inter-related characteristics.

 

Just try with the same pen/nib and a few different inks on different papers and you'll see. Some inks have a lot of surfactants, some are acidic or basic,... try them on coated and uncoated paper of different qualities, try them on toilet paper, kitchen towels, acidic or non-acidic papers, of different thicknesses and see how the same nib can give a whole gamut of behaviors. Try that with a couple of different nibs, or at least with an F and a B and compare the same inks on the same papers.

 

You will likely find that bleed-through is usually mostly a function of paper quality (there is more variation), then on ink (most inks tend to be well behaved) and lastly on the pen (of which the feed system will often be more relevant than the nib).

 

--

As for instant writing, I believe that it is also a function of surface tension between nib, feed and paper, and most of all, pen and cap design and ink chosen (and storage position): some inks evaporate faster and so the nib/feed dries and hard-starts, if the cap closes tight, ink evaporation is less likely, if the feed is "wet", and the pen stored point down, you may get ink spills but no drying and instant writing.

 

My experience with Kaweco pens (EF, F, B, 1.1mm nibs) is they close tight enough that they can instantly start after two-three months unused and stored inked, nib-up. If I leave them uncapped on the table, depending on the ink, they may dry up faster or slower and take less or more time until a hard-start. So, it's not as much the nib as the ink/sealing/feed system combination as well.

 

NOTE: these are my beliefs, based on my experience. YMMV and I may be totally off.

 

† I know, it sounds like an archetypal joke of "why did X cross to the other side"...

[Azulado]

On 6/5/2022 at 7:43 AM, txomsy said:

My experience with Kaweco pens (EF, F, B, 1.1mm nibs) is they close tight enough that they can instantly start after two-three months unused and stored inked, nib-up.

I have two Kaweco Sport and the cap seal is not perfect. After a few hours the ink condenses on the tip, but it has never dried out or caused writing problems.

@ENewton In general, the first few lines are wetter due to condensation, then the flow stabilizes. This can give the impression that the feed is not supplying as much ink as the nib demands.
In addition to the Sport, I have a Perkeo. Since the former are Bock and this one is Jowo, I should not identify the problems of one with the other. But I have needed to disassemble the nib feed assembly of all three to get them to work properly. It was enough to reassemble it for them to work properly. On one Sport EF the nib came out of alignment when disassembled, but it was fine out of box. Fortunately, adjusting Kaweco nibs is child's play.
It has happened to me on occasion that when I put in a new cartridge, the ink started coming out like a fire hose. Taking it out and putting it back in has solved the problem. And as with almost all pens, the ink and paper are critical to the performance of the pen. That affects feedback and even scratching.

From the reviews I have seen of the premium steel nib, where it is compared to the gold nib, the ink flow is much greater in these two than in the standard steel. In my opinion, Kaweco has tuned the gold and standard nibs to write very wet. The idea is that they are glassys and they have applied two simultaneous solutions, super polishing and abundant ink flow. In the comparison tests, the premium and gold nibs had a wider line than the standard nibs. I suspect there is some variation in the "premium" feeds, perhaps it is not design, it may be a different plastic, but I have not been able to verify.
 I have not tried Japanese nibs. I don't know how they do it to make them soft and juicy. The question I have is whether it is possible for an EF nib to be glassy and have a balanced flow. With polishing may be enough? My experience tells me that ink plays an essential role in EFs.

 

[mtcn77]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:43 PM, txomsy said:

Whether the ink is deployed with a syringe, and eyedropper, a cotton swab or a nib, is irrelevant if the amount of ink laid down per unit surface is the same.

Great! We have an ongoing conversation!

Regarding bleedthrough, it is widely known Kaweco nibs have a reknowned dryness to them. They can have a chalky feel from the dryness, or it might be due to BBS overpolishing by rounding the inner edges of the tines that  tones down the writing feel. The disadvantage of all this smoothing might be that the pen can have less line variation with pressure, leading to a heavy handedness. I think it serves to push the nib hard into the paper and that may result in more bleedthrough.

On 6/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, Azulado said:

@ENewton In general, the first few lines are wetter due to condensation, then the flow stabilizes.

I had gushing levels of wetness that rapidly tapered off into nothingness just in one paragraph when the nib collar wasn't pressed all the way. 

On 6/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, Azulado said:

I have two Kaweco Sport and the cap seal is not perfect. After a few hours the ink condenses on the tip, but it has never dried out or caused writing problems.

I recall there was heavy condensation when the converter was either vapor locked, or leaking air. Ink would get so gunky, I would have to clean it from the cap, or else my fingers would get smeared in ink. Ironically, eyedroppering without silicone grease just securing the barrel tight does not cause inky fingers.

[txomsy]

1 hour ago, mtcn77 said:

I think it serves to push the nib hard into the paper and that may result in more bleedthrough.

But then that is not a problem of the nib, but of the hand.

 

Yet, Kaweco nibs used to have inconsistencies until they got enough feedback and fixed it. My current nibs, none have issues, except for papers that are bad in themselves. It is possible some old nibs might had those problems. Still that is also a relatively subjective problem, with different people preferring different feels in how the nib moves over the paper.

[mtcn77]

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

But then that is not a problem of the nib, but of the hand.

Well, the sentence before your quote I was saying the pen was hard to initiate. It isn't out of personal preference.

2 hours ago, mtcn77 said:

The disadvantage of all this smoothing might be that the pen can have less line variation with pressure, leading to a heavy handedness.

It gets tiresome and I don't think any pen should feel this way - it was really heavy. Call it splaying, or not, it wasn't pleasant to write with. It wasn't wet enough to keep a steady line width and when it wass, it felt scratchy. The lines weren't supple.

Notice that aftermarket nibs didn't have this issue initially, so it is safe to say the problem exists only for previous stock users that were expecting a wider default stock nib and made nib modifications causing splaying issues.

For instance, I have been using mediums all the time and this broad is just what I needed - smooth and supple. The M didn't have that, one side of the nib felt less lubricated and catchy while the ink bleed through and feathering was noticeable.

PS: I put a disclaimer that only users expecting one size wider lines who modified their nibs had it for clarification of the issue.

[mtcn77]

I had a full day of writing today. The new broad nib actually feels just like the other ones - closed, hard to initiate, but overall supple and smooth.

Ironically it really doesn't change its writing after the occasional hardstart. Still prone to hardstarts eventhough it doesn't skip during writing.

What is the upside, there is almost no feathering and what are the downsides; there is no line variation, you can't feel the give, it has a heavy feel to it and the pen sometimes hard starts and that causes some palm aching. I have this weird angle of my wrist that really tugs on my thumb tendon(de quervain tenosinovitis if you know), so after a day of writing this is where it feels achy.

The one upside of a new nib is it writes just perfect without resistance in either direction - clock and anticlockwise. I still have to use my top ink if I want to get it to write easier, KWZ 4704 is too hard and gooey, although that makes it smooth.