Is Waterman Serenity Blue and Parker Blue Quink the same ink ?

[fabian3194]

Hi,

 

Would Waterman Serenity Blue and Parker Blue Quink be the same ink  ? They're both owned by Newell, both made in France and I can not distinguish any difference in their colour.

 

Thanks,

 

[Runnin_Ute]

I wouldn't think so, but you never know...

[yazeh]

You can do a chroma test, and it might answer your question

[bunnspecial]

The only inks from these two brands I've heard it speculated about in the past were their respective Blue-Blacks. Now, Waterman Mysterious Blue is still the old formula that writes like a good old Waterman ink, and Quink blue-black is a dty-as-a-bone faded denim colored ink.

 

 

[ajcoleman]

In some ways I am surprised they are not the same, but I don't think they are. Quick dries to a lighter, softer, more neutral shade of blue in my opinion, and Waterman has a bit more leaning to purple or royal blue, and does not lighten as much as it dries. I use and like both, though at the moment I am favoring Waterman.

 

For the blue black, I agree, they used to be more similar. Waterman is the old formula, that I found often faded to a teal color, depending on the paper. I really didn't like that shade. Quick blue black is bluer than some blue black inks, almost a navy, and doesn't fade toward green at all. It is a favorite.

 

All are very well behaved inks. I hope that the market continues to support our friends at Newell continuing both lines.

[Olya]

The suspicion has always been there.

 

The biggest sign for a yes was that both their blue blacks used to fade to a teal colour.

 

Parker changed their formula a couple of years ago and now it doesn't fade anymore and is a wonderful colour and I have read that Waterman's blue black has undergone the same change.

 

Even chroma and water tests of their black inks seem to show the same ink.

 

I have both their blues, but never did a side by side test.

 

Going by everything I've read (behaviour tests and experience) and my own experience (even if I never came around to test them side by side), I've always thought they are the same and continue to think so.

[RJS]

Parker Blue and Serenity Blue are definitely different from my experience of pretty recent bottles, and I much prefer the colour of the Waterman ink. I don't have a bottle of Parker Blue Black any more (gave it away years ago), but I did buy Mysterious Blue a few months ago, and I'm not much of a fan. It's greyer and less blue than I recall Parker Blue Black of old being.

[Paganini]

Interesting notion. Is there some sort of test that could be done that would provide a definitive answer? 

 

I remember this thread that revealed and compared the PH levels of various inks. Parker Blue, Black, and Blue-black have very similar PH to Waterman Blue, Black, and Blue-black, but not absolutely identical. I don't know enough about chemistry to say whether or those variations are large enough to mean anything. Maybe someone else does? 

[bunnspecial]

  On 2/14/2021 at 8:24 PM, Paganini said:

 

I remember this thread that revealed and compared the PH levels of various inks. Parker Blue, Black, and Blue-black have very similar PH to Waterman Blue, Black, and Blue-black, but not absolutely identical. I don't know enough about chemistry to say whether or those variations are large enough to mean anything. Maybe someone else does? 

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A couple of thoughts:

 

1. I really would like to see the actual values for those. pH is a logarithmic scale, and a change of one pH unit is a 10 fold change in the acidity(defined as the concentration of H30+ in the solution) so the "small changes" can be significant.

 

2. Depending on the exact dyes used, the color can be pH dependent. That can make it really important or not so important to hold the pH to tight tolerance. The chemistry of many dyes is such that holding the correct pH can be important to keep the dye soluble. Dyes themselves tend to be acidic or basic, although they're used at such small concentrations that I doubt they have an appreciable affect on the pH.

 

3. I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the pH meter shown, and I'd want to see exactly how it works. Laboratory grade pH electrodes are calibrated before every use(or at least should be) and also checked periodically during use. Calibration is done using purchased reference buffer solutions.

 

That chart to me provides some general information, but I wouldn't necessarily take the numbers "to the bank" so to speak.

 

Once I can actually get back into the lab for a full day, which between COVID and now the weather has been a difficult thing, I'd like to spend some time looking at inks. I have Quink BB and Waterman Mysterious Blue that were both bought late last year. I also have a bottle of Florida Blue from ~2012 and a bottle of Serenity Blue bought last year. I can get some Quink Blue. I'd like to test several things in them, not just pH.

[peroride]

  On 2/14/2021 at 8:16 PM, RJS said:

Parker Blue and Serenity Blue are definitely different from my experience of pretty recent bottles, and I much prefer the colour of the Waterman ink. 

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@RJS is correct, Waterman Serenity Blue is not the same as Parker Quink Blue Black.

 

In my observations:

• The color is different both wet and dry
• Surface tension appears to be higher in Quink than Serenity
• Both smell similar but Quink is stronger/more distinct than Serenity

Whether the base formula or manufacturing facility is the same remains a mystery. Update: both boxes say made in France

 

I enjoy them both and was surprised that Waterman's affords a bit of water resistance that I thought was only reserved for Parker Quink Blue Black

 

Talk is cheap, here's a picture

 

And here's Professor Dave explaining liquid properties, i forgot

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by peroride
made in France update

[bunnspecial]

  On 2/15/2021 at 8:36 PM, peroride said:

  On 2/14/2021 at 8:16 PM, RJS said:

 

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@RJS is correct, Waterman Serenity Blue is not the same as Parker Quink Blue Black.

Expand  

 

There was never any discussion about Serenity Blue and Quink Blue-Black being the same ink.

 

Serenity blue(formerly Florida Blue) is Waterman's standard "Washable" blue. It is being compared here to Quink Blue, also a standard washable blue.

 

The equivalent of Quink Blue-Black would be Waterman Mysterious Blue.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/14/2021 at 8:24 PM, Paganini said:

Interesting notion. Is there some sort of test that could be done that would provide a definitive answer? 

Expand  

 

A single test? I don't think so. Although the answer as to whether two (identifiable or unidentified) substances are identical is binary, testing it cannot be that simple. Two identical substances would be identical in every property, so to establish that they are identical you'll need to be prepared to cover each of umpteen properties in your exhaustive testing. If you're only after a quick answer, and happen to get lucky, then the first test you administer under controlled conditions will reveal that they're different. However, it'd be very cool if you (have to) go to the trouble of running a dozen tests, and find that the two inks are only different in one respect that wasn't revealed until the twelve test, and then you'll need to repeat that to make sure it wasn't in error, to establish that they're in fact different substances in spite of all the similarities.

[bunnspecial]

  On 2/16/2021 at 1:01 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

A single test? I don't think so. Although the answer as to whether two (identifiable or unidentified) substances are identical is binary, testing it cannot be that simple. Two identical substances would be identical in every property, so to establish that they are identical you'll need to be prepared to cover each of umpteen properties in your exhaustive testing. If you're only after a quick answer, and happen to get lucky, then the first test you administer under controlled conditions will reveal that they're different. However, it'd be very cool if you (have to) go to the trouble of running a dozen tests, and find that the two inks are only different in one respect that wasn't revealed until the twelve test, and then you'll need to repeat that to make sure it wasn't in error, to establish that they're in fact different substances in spite of all the similarities.

Expand  

 

I'm saying this as an analytical chemist who has in the past been paid to figure out this kind of stuff.

 

If I had access to an HPLC(high performance liquid chromatograph) with preferably a diode array detector, I'd feel reasonably confident in declaring two inks "the same" if they had the same grouping of dyes(as determined by both retention time and by their absorbance spectra) in the same concentrations. A standard variable wavelength detector could primarily be relied on to identify by retention time, but could possibly "miss" dyes outside the wavelength it is set to. HPLC-MS would tell you if the dyes are the same and could potentially identify the dyes.

 

That's the primary technique I can think of to determine, and would be relatively simple to perform. The last unit I priced out was a refurbished Agilent 1100 with a DAD and it was $20K with an academic discount. Double that for new, and an MS gets you to $100K+.

 

 

[Intensity]

Waterman Mysterious Blue was reformulated a few years ago.  Those who are seeing a faded, grayed tealish color are using the older formulation.  Some shops might still have it in stock.  The latest version of Mysterious Blue is a vibrant medium-dark blue leaning slightly teal.  It's a beautiful ink with a velvety look on the page, especially when using broad nibs.  But completely different from the grayed teal that it was before.  

 

And before anyone says that Mysterious Blue looks different based on nib and paper used--that used to be the case.  The latest version is fairly consistent.  And I've had Waterman confirm to me that the formulation was changed.

[TSherbs]

  On 2/15/2021 at 5:47 PM, bunnspecial said:

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. I really would like to see the actual values for those. pH is a logarithmic scale, and a change of one pH unit is a 10 fold change in the acidity(defined as the concentration of H30+ in the solution) so the "small changes" can be significant.

 

2. Depending on the exact dyes used, the color can be pH dependent. That can make it really important or not so important to hold the pH to tight tolerance. The chemistry of many dyes is such that holding the correct pH can be important to keep the dye soluble. Dyes themselves tend to be acidic or basic, although they're used at such small concentrations that I doubt they have an appreciable affect on the pH.

 

3. I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the pH meter shown, and I'd want to see exactly how it works. Laboratory grade pH electrodes are calibrated before every use(or at least should be) and also checked periodically during use. Calibration is done using purchased reference buffer solutions.

 

That chart to me provides some general information, but I wouldn't necessarily take the numbers "to the bank" so to speak.

 

Once I can actually get back into the lab for a full day, which between COVID and now the weather has been a difficult thing, I'd like to spend some time looking at inks. I have Quink BB and Waterman Mysterious Blue that were both bought late last year. I also have a bottle of Florida Blue from ~2012 and a bottle of Serenity Blue bought last year. I can get some Quink Blue. I'd like to test several things in them, not just pH.

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 I, for one, would love to read your results. I like when these threads get sciencey and rely on hard (reasonably) data.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/16/2021 at 1:58 AM, bunnspecial said:

If I had access to an HPLC(high performance liquid chromatograph) with preferably a diode array detector, I'd feel reasonably confident in declaring two inks "the same" if they had the same grouping of dyes(as determined by both retention time and by their absorbance spectra) in the same concentrations.

Expand  

 

I'll defer to your expertise and access to specialist testing equipment, then.

[fabian3194]

The image shows what I mean by the ink colours look the same and the packaging shows the same company address. I was thinking along the lines that this could be a case of 'badge engineering' ie the product rolls off the same production line but they stick a different label on it.

 

 

[peroride]

  On 2/15/2021 at 11:04 PM, bunnspecial said:

There was never any discussion about Serenity Blue and Quink Blue-Black being the same ink.

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Thank you @bunnspecial for the clarification!

 

That said, I'm glad the OP has the original inks to test, please share observations.

 

Perhaps the same simple tests can be run as suggested: chromatography (paper not gas 😅), water test, smell, other liquid properties: drop on plastic for surface tension, etc

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/16/2021 at 1:58 AM, bunnspecial said:

I'd feel reasonably confident in declaring two inks "the same" if they had the same grouping of dyes(as determined by both retention time and by their absorbance spectra) in the same concentrations.

Expand  

 

Here's a question for you, out of sheer curiosity on my part. It's a well-known trick that a tiny, tiny bit of detergent in a full fill of ink would make it flow wetter through the pen, and most likely change how it presents on the page all else being equal (same pen, same paper, same user writing with the same technique, etc.); thus essentially making it a different ink (or writing fluid) from before. How would the before and after comparison appear, in the test involving the HPLC stuff you mentioned?

[Licue]

  On 2/16/2021 at 2:30 AM, Intensity said:

Waterman Mysterious Blue was reformulated a few years ago.  Those who are seeing a faded, grayed tealish color are using the older formulation.  Some shops might still have it in stock.  The latest version of Mysterious Blue is a vibrant medium-dark blue leaning slightly teal.  It's a beautiful ink with a velvety look on the page, especially when using broad nibs.  But completely different from the grayed teal that it was before.  

 

And before anyone says that Mysterious Blue looks different based on nib and paper used--that used to be the case.  The latest version is fairly consistent.  And I've had Waterman confirm to me that the formulation was changed.

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Is there any outer sign to tell the two Mysterious Blue versions from each other?

I know Waterman also changed the packaging, but does that change correspond with the change of the ink formula? E.g. when I see the "ribbon" design, can I safely assume the ink in it is the old formula?