Celluloid acidic smell - actions

[Fox Point]

Sadly my lovely new vintage Pilot in clear and purple celluloid has developed a distinctly acidic smell in the cap, which is lingering a touch on the barrel. 

 

Is there any immediate treatment I can do to stop the positive reinforcement cycle of degredation+acid? How about longer term? 

 

My plan at the moment: gentle soap and water, clean and isolate cap from everything else celluloid in darkness with ventilation. I am also going to order some of those absorptive archival papers. 

[sansenri]

regretfully it is unlikely that there may be a treatment to stop decay of celluloid if that is what is happening.

 

The precautions you are taking seem to be correct, washing away frequently any trace of forming acid is best way to act.

Absorptive paper during the storage time in between washing is also probably good, so is keeping the pen in a ventilated place (in the open if you can, i.e. do not store it back in a drawer or a box, leave it in an open box on a shelf, and I also suggest uncapped) and away from other celluloid pens is imperative.

 

Decay can be very gradual though, so my suggestion is keep using it as long as the acidic off-gas is still limited, it may keep working for quite some time still.

 

Look out for effects on ink you fill it with. If ink changes colour for example that is a sign decay has also reached the inside of the pen...(if any part of the inner system is in contact with the celluloid)

 

My considerations are from direct experience, an Omas in wild celluloid died on me a few months ago... (eventually it snapped in two...)

When decay had become evident I kept using it more frequently to enjoy it while it lasted...

[Seney724]

I think I do not fully understand the concept of "decay" when applied to celluloid.  I was under the impression that all celluloid developed what is called "off gassing" (some call it out gassing) as it matures over the years.  The off gassing of cellulose creates nitric acid and vapors which smell like camphor.  My understanding is this is a much more significant process in fountain pens who's celluloid was not fully cured before the celluloid rod from which it came was fashioned into the pen and these pens were at most risk for the destructive effects of the acid which is known to some by the name of crystallization.

 

My question is: If this is a natural and expected process in all celluloid does that mean all celluloid decays?  Although one only needs to take a quick look here in this sub-forum to see some heart wrenching stories of ruined celluloid pens I have never heard anyone say that it will happen to all celluloid pens.  

 

So, @sansenri, if one smells camphor but sees nothing how does one know if there is actual decay and the pen is decomposing or if it is just the natural creation of the off gassing related vapors? 

 

For sure, all celluloid pens should kept kept in non-humid, well ventilated places and kept away from exposure to direct sunlight. But those with any sign(s) of decay must be kept isolated from other celluloid pens.

 

I hope others will correct anything I have said which is incorrect and add additional information as well.

[sgphototn]

I'm late to the understanding of celluloid problems, not ever having a celluloid pen.

 

As I understand, and I might be wrong, real vintage celluloids are less likely to (but still may and do) develop problems. But recent celluloids of the past 20-30 years are ticking time-bombs, and that includes rather expensive celluloids.

 

I'm not sure that one can trust the makers of modern celluloids to be completely honest here as these pens routinely sell for 600 dollars and up, and have a monetary reason to not disclose information that would seriously affect their bottom line.

 

I'm all open to hearing different views, but I HAD planned to add celluloids (vintage and modern) to my pen mix, but frankly, hearing what I've heard in the past two months, I'm rethinking it.

 

Any guidance here would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sansenri]

1 hour ago, Seney724 said:

I think I do not fully understand the concept of "decay" when applied to celluloid.  I was under the impression that all celluloid developed what is called "off gassing" (some call it out gassing) as it matures over the years.  The off gassing of cellulose creates nitric acid and vapors which smell like camphor.  My understanding is this is a much more significant process in fountain pens who's celluloid was not fully cured before the celluloid rod from which it came was fashioned into the pen and these pens were at most risk for the destructive effects of the acid which is known to some by the name of crystallization.

 

My question is: If this is a natural and expected process in all celluloid does that mean all celluloid decays?  Although one only needs to take a quick look here in this sub-forum to see some heart wrenching stories of ruined celluloid pens I have never heard anyone say that it will happen to all celluloid pens.  

 

So, @sansenri, if one smells camphor but sees nothing how does one know if there is actual decay and the pen is decomposing or if it is just the natural creation of the off gassing related vapors? 

 

For sure, all celluloid pens should kept kept in non-humid, well ventilated places and kept away from exposure to direct sunlight. But those with any sign(s) of decay must be kept isolated from other celluloid pens.

 

I hope others will correct anything I have said which is incorrect and add additional information as well.

It's been discussed before, and you will excuse if I will use approximate terms to describe what happens.

Celluloid tends to be an unstable material, but it all depends how it was produced. If the production process was done with all due care, celluloid can be much more stable. There are examples of very old pens in celluloid and they are perfectly ok. Possibly, if manufacture was hastened in the "curing" process, celluloid can be more unstable.

This seems to have happened in more recent celluloid possibly due to (I speculate) the fact that at some point celluloid became rather desirable for modern pens, as a precious material (undoubtedly some celluloids are the most beautiful materials ever seen), and so manufacturers (note that in general celluloid manufacturers are not the pen manufacturers) were pushed to hurry the production process to keep up with demand, skipping or shortening some of the "curing" processes.
I will not go into the complicated details of what happens chemically when celluloid starts to "decay" (check the search, there are other threads about it).

Camphor smell is the natural odor of celluloid (which is made of nitrocelluoid and camphor), a camphor smelling celluloid pen is usually more recent (old celluloid pens tend to lose the smell) but is perfectly ok. When celluloid starts decay that is a different matter, chemically nitric acid is produced and that causes metal trim to corrode, the surface of the pen becomes sticky, misty, and smells of acid.

The process as far as I know is irreversible.
Only some pens made of some celluloids have actually developed this problem, others made of the same celluloid are perfectly ok. So it is really difficult to say, but certainly certain celluloids have shown more of these events, possibly particular batches had problems (not all the production).

 

Your question as to whether all celluloid decays is difficult to answer, the answer might be "eventually" but when, is extremely difficult to say (the second principle of thermodynamics substantially says that with time all systems dissolve into chaos... )
Celluloid was invented in 1860-70 so there are objects made of celluloid (not just pens) that are very old and they still survive.

It is more likely a problem with specific batches of specific celluloids.

Generally speaking nonetheless it is a good precaution to store celluloid pens in a relatively ventilated place or at least let them "breathe" periodically.
Any decaying pen on the other hand should certainly be separated from any other celluloid as the process is transmissible (nitric acid can start off the problem in perfectly good celluloid).

[sansenri]

40 minutes ago, sgphototn said:

I'm late to the understanding of celluloid problems, not ever having a celluloid pen.

 

As I understand, and I might be wrong, real vintage celluloids are less likely to (but still may and do) develop problems. But recent celluloids of the past 20-30 years are ticking time-bombs, and that includes rather expensive celluloids.

 

I'm not sure that one can trust the makers of modern celluloids to be completely honest here as these pens routinely sell for 600 dollars and up, and have a monetary reason to not disclose information that would seriously affect their bottom line.

 

I'm all open to hearing different views, but I HAD planned to add celluloids (vintage and modern) to my pen mix, but frankly, hearing what I've heard in the past two months, I'm rethinking it.

 

Any guidance here would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your concern is understandable, and I partially share it, but risk has already been taken (on my part) as I own a number of celloloid pens...

To be fair only one pen of the ones I own has developed this problem, and I need to add I knew it would, because when I bought it some signs of the decay starting (notably warping of the celluloid) were already notable...

I took a chance, because I really liked the pen (and cost was low) and have used it for a number of years anyway...

 

I would not let that stopping you from buying a celluloid pen.
Perhaps read some of the topics to learn more on the mostly affected types of pens/celluloids, and choose one that has not been reported for this issue.
 

[lionelc]

time to crack out the a-d strips?