What is on your bench?

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

3 hours ago, GlenV said:

makes sense would be a leaky sac you could test them probably for leaking like fill with water and blow into it??  I've rarely bought a sac with a hole in it maybe once or twice, did get  51  vac sac with no pellet 

 

Yeah... I got a vac sac with no pellet once before as well. I ended up reusing a pellet I somehow got out of the pellet cup undamaged (well, the pellet cup got a little chipped unfortunately, but the pellet itself was fine) so at least that one was not a waste.

 

It fills fine so obviously it holds some suction but I don't know what else it could be. I know people say this is a somewhat common occurrence with old pens but I've restored a fair amount and I always use a properly sized sac (meaning, not too big - I'm usually pretty conservative when it comes to sac sizes) and very few of the pens (if any, for lever fillers) I've restored have this issue. Mostly only eyedroppers.

[VacNut]

Just curious, do you also seal the section to the barrel with rosin or shellac? The only air that can enter the pinhole in the sack is from inside the barrel if the section is sealed - or from the tiny gaps in the lever box or button filler. I am just speculating, but unless you were in a plane, there won’t be much of a pressure difference when the pen is uncapped. The cap also has a breather hole.

 

[Ron Z]

When I run into a pen with a leaking problem, I replace the sac.  It is the most likely source of the problem and cheapest to fix.   It only takes a pin hole that you may not see, to cause a pen to ooze.

 

The other thing to do is to make sure that the sac nipple is clean and smooth.  I wrap a piece of 180 grit sand paper around the sac nipple and give it a couple twists.  That both makes sure that you have an even surface, and gives a slightly roughened surface for the shellac to adhere to.  Note, I said shellac.  Thread sealant remains soft, and really is intended to seal threaded joints.  Think of it as pipe dope for pens.  ....and anticipating someone getting the idea,  don't ever think about using pipe dope to seal threads on pens.

 

Beyond that, you start looking for cracks, or air channels in the feed being cut too deep, or any number of weird little things.  But the most likely cause is the sac or the way it is attached.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I am still a little confused. I thoroughly cleaned out the pen and it fills very well, I would think if the sac had any holes or permeability issues, that would affect the filling. Maybe I used a sac that was too big after all.

 

I used the usual size for these, but I did replace the pressure bar - it came to me with a non-original j-bar instead of the usual Waterman bar. I had an extra one lying around from the same model of pen so I replaced it, but maybe it's very slightly thicker than what it would have originally had.

 

Also, a new one for me. I got a new vac 51 to work on and the hood was very stubborn to take off. When I finally got off, the collector came off with the hood! Never had that happen before. I pulled it out of the hood with little effort but it is absolutely caked in ink, was borderline "glued" to the collector with dried up ink.

 

[Ron Z]

25 minutes ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

I would think if the sac had any holes or permeability issues, that would affect the filling.

 

Yes, you would think so, but it's not always the case.  Often replacing what appears to be a good sac (the pen fills) with another one fixes a leak.  Relatively inexpensive to do, and you can always put the sac back into the pen, or another pen.

 

 There is also the possibility that the channel in the feed was cut too deep.  This picture shows two feed ends.  The slits carry ink down to the nib, the wider channel allows air back into the  ink sac.  If you've ever seen a clear Parker VS  feed, you often see the bubbles of air moving UP the feed, while ink moves DOWN as you write.

 

Note that the cut in the feed on the left is much deeper than the one on the right.  That allows more  air back into the pen than there should be, the balance is upset, and more ink flows into the feed.  The pen leaked until the feed on the left was replaced with the feed on the right.  I've encountered the same problem on a number of the first generation Vacumatics.  Again, a feed change cured the problem.   The overall diameter for the two is the same by the way - Waterman made many the diameter on the end of the feed smaller on many of their pens.  That would not cause flooding.

 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I can't see the feed very well unfortunately, it's a Taperite. Taking it apart would be more trouble than it is worth. I'll try filling it one more time, if the issue persists I will replace the sac with a new one (from a different source) and also go one size down just in case.

 

I usually use size 17 sacs for these full size Taperites and I find it is a good midway point between the size 16 that Richard Binder recommends and the size 18 that Pensacs.com lists. Usually fits well without being too tight. But maybe this one is just off a little bit and a smaller one would be better.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I have made a bit of a big boo-boo. Was putting a new diaphragm into the vac pump and the pellet cup just shattered. And by shattered, I mean only the front end of it, so I had to spent half an hour chipping the bottom bits off. So... my questions:

 

1) Where do I buy a new one?

2) What is the preferred adhesive to reattach? Will superglue be okay? I do not have epoxy. I am assuming any new replacements will be made of ebonite not celluloid so solvent welding won't be an option?

 

I have some super strong Loctite 480 that I bought to glue fix a hard rubber pen, would this be okay or just household super glue is preferable?

 

[Ron Z]

Dale Beebe at pentooling.com has reproduction pellet cups made out of hard rubber.  They work very well.  This one of the few (very few) cases where a good cyanoacrylate is OK.  Loctite makes a hardened gel version that is good, and can be found (of all places) at Wally's World.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

34 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

Dale Beebe at pentooling.com has reproduction pellet cups made out of hard rubber.  They work very well.  This one of the few (very few) cases where a good cyanoacrylate is OK.  Loctite makes a hardened gel version that is good, and can be found (of all places) at Wally's World.

 

Oh okay, I will check it out. Do you recommend doing a test fit before gluing or just do it in one shot? I am worried because the little connector where the spring sits looks fragile so if it is a tight fight I don't want to risk breaking it by putting the new cup on and then taking it off again before doing the final fit.

[Ron Z]

They fit on pretty well, but sliding it onto the end of the stem first can't hurt.  Just don't seat it all of the way on.   Because the hole is straight, after I mount the pellet cup on the stem,  I usually take a burr and open up the inside below edge a bit to make room for the pellet and diaphragm.  These are far better than all of the methods we used to kluge together to replace broken pellet cups.

[VacNut]

You can search for pellet cups on this forum and similar topics will pop up. The postage may be more than the cost of the cup, so you may want to order a few of them. The cups are fragile and easily damaged.

[Ron Z]

10 hours ago, VacNut said:

The cups are fragile and easily damaged.

 

To clarify, the original pellet cups are fragile.....  They were celluloid and often degrade and become very brittle.  I've opened some pens to find NO pellet cup because it had shattered, and it's pieces were mixed in with the crumbs of the remains of the diaphragm.  The replacements are quite good.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Sigh, I can't deal with this hobby anymore. I am supposed to get the new pellet cups soon so I got a new diaphragm from a local store. I was very clear that I needed the smallest size, the debutante size, and that it was for a Parker 51.

 

I finally got to looking at it, and comparing it to a leftover debutante diaphragm that I cut too short, I am sure that not only did they not sell me a debutante size, it is most likely the largest size. I'm just exhausted with this hobby. It seems like customer service is a foreign concept to most of the vintage pen supply businesses. Does the below look like a debutante diaphragm? 

 

 

Over the last few months, I have gotten diaphragms with no pellets, sacs with literal holes in them, other sacs that looked like someone tried using them as chewing gum, nib pliers that are borderline useless (the tips bent out of shape the first time I tried using them) and "more." I guess I am expecting too much to get the product that I paid for, I need to lower my expectations.

 

I suppose it should not surprise anyone that a hobby centered around a technology that reached maturity a century ago also has businesses that run themselves like we are still in the 1950's.

[es9]

I have ordered a lot of parts/supplies from many different people and have rarely run into problems. Occasionally the wrong part or item is sent. If it’s a big deal, I’ll contact the seller; usually it’s just a matter of one of us eating shipping. Other times I just let the loss lie—one diaphragm missing a pellet out of a bag of 10 isn’t a big of a deal. That’s happened to me a few times; I now save intact pellets for just such a situation. 

 

If you purchased nib pliers that are bent, contact the supplier. I strongly doubt someone is trying to fleece you. More likely, they are busy and missed something. 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

16 minutes ago, es9 said:

I have ordered a lot of parts/supplies from many different people and have rarely run into problems. Occasionally the wrong part or item is sent. If it’s a big deal, I’ll contact the seller; usually it’s just a matter of one of us eating shipping. Other times I just let the loss lie—one diaphragm missing a pellet out of a bag of 10 isn’t a big of a deal. That’s happened to me a few times; I now save intact pellets for just such a situation. 

 

If you purchased nib pliers that are bent, contact the supplier. I strongly doubt someone is trying to fleece you. More likely, they are busy and missed something. 

 

They were fine when I got them, but they quickly bent out of shape with very light use (literally the first time I tried to do basic nib work with a vintage steel nib). I decided to eat the cost, there's no way to prove that they were faulty or that I didn't use them incorrectly. They were not cheap and I am not rich so it was not great for me. I don't believe in anyone paying for my mistakes so I took that one on the chin. Still, it was very much not what I expected when I read the product description and considering what I paid.

 

I guess I've just been unlucky. I've restored less than half a dozen vacumatics, and out of those handful of sacs, I got one with no pellet (and I consider this a major issue because they are completely useless without the pellet), and now one that is completely the wrong size. Not a good sample size I admit, but also not a good sign that so many were not what I needed.

 

I got a whole batch of sacs where half of them were in horrible condition (from a few posts ago). Some of them literally had holes in them, others were severely disfigured like they had been subject to extreme heat or someone had been chewing on them. I don't think this happened during shipping, because the other half were perfectly fine. So whoever sold them to me didn't care to actually take two seconds to inspect the products they were sending to me. I installed one of the ones that looked fine in the Taperite I mentioned a few posts ago and it has severe burping problems so it is likely even the ones that look cosmetically "okay" are in poor condition.

 

I don't think anyone in the community is fleecing or cheating anyone intentionally, but I think that there is a lapse in quality of service and/or product from some sellers. It's very much a niche hobby and I think a lot of people have a "my way or the highway" attitude because they might be the only one who sells that particular part or supply or tool.

[Ron Z]

Sacs in the condition that you describe are  I suspect, old sacs, starting to decay.  Martin Smith at Woodbin in Canada (now passed), had a bad batch of sacs that were missing a key ingredient, and started to "melt" just sitting in their storage bags.  Headaches for repair people who had used them. 

 

There is IMO one source for sacs and diaphragms - the Pen Sac Company.  They are I believe, the only ones who actually make latex sacs.  Anyone else is just a reseller, and you never know how old their stock is.  I have not had a problem with PSC sacs failing in storage in the 30 years or so that I've used them.

[gweimer1]

30 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

Sacs in the condition that you describe are  I suspect, old sacs, starting to decay.  Martin Smith at Woodbin in Canada (now passed), had a bad batch of sacs that were missing a key ingredient, and started to "melt" just sitting in their storage bags.  Headaches for repair people who had used them. 

 

There is IMO one source for sacs and diaphragms - the Pen Sac Company.  They are I believe, the only ones who actually make latex sacs.  Anyone else is just a reseller, and you never know how old their stock is.  I have not had a problem with PSC sacs failing in storage in the 30 years or so that I've used them.

 

Agreed.   You should know, though, that Pete was in the hospital over the holidays.  Orders from PSC may take a little time right now.  He emailed me about my order just before Christmas.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I've never had problems with the sacs I've bought from Pen Sac Company directly. I've gotten lazy sometimes and I'll order sacs from other sources as an "add-on" if I'm ordering other stuff though, to save on shipping. I guess I'll stop doing that.

 

1 hour ago, gweimer1 said:

Agreed.   You should know, though, that Pete was in the hospital over the holidays.  Orders from PSC may take a little time right now.  He emailed me about my order just before Christmas.

 

Oh no, that is really sad to hear. I hope he is doing better now.

[FarmBoy]

8 hours ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

I've never had problems with the sacs I've bought from Pen Sac Company directly. I've gotten lazy sometimes and I'll order sacs from other sources as an "add-on" if I'm ordering other stuff though, to save on shipping. I guess I'll stop doing that.

 

 

Oh no, that is really sad to hear. I hope he is doing better now.

He is. Spoke to Peter a few days ago. 

[VacNut]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:38 PM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

Sigh, I can't deal with this hobby anymore. I am supposed to get the new pellet cups soon so I got a new diaphragm from a local store. I was very clear that I needed the smallest size, the debutante size, and that it was for a Parker 51.

 

I finally got to looking at it, and comparing it to a leftover debutante diaphragm that I cut too short, I am sure that not only did they not sell me a debutante size, it is most likely the largest size. I'm just exhausted with this hobby. It seems like customer service is a foreign concept to most of the vintage pen supply businesses. Does the below look like a debutante diaphragm? 

 

 

Over the last few months, I have gotten diaphragms with no pellets, sacs with literal holes in them, other sacs that looked like someone tried using them as chewing gum, nib pliers that are borderline useless (the tips bent out of shape the first time I tried using them) and "more." I guess I am expecting too much to get the product that I paid for, I need to lower my expectations.

 

I suppose it should not surprise anyone that a hobby centered around a technology that reached maturity a century ago also has businesses that run themselves like we are still in the 1950's.

I think it is a great idea to take a break. We are collecting pens that are 80,90, or over 100 years old. They are everyday items that were never intended to last, much less work after so many years. Keep in mind most of the pens are made from or have parts made from organic materials which naturally degrade over time.

 

This hobby became much more widespread and popular in the early 1980’s. Prior to that I don’t think there was much interest in collecting fountain pens. (You can hear great stories from collectors of finding boxes and boxes of pens in people’s garages and buying them for Pennie’s on the dollar). The hobbyists had to rediscover or relearn the technical skills and knowledge to restore the pens. The repair manuals from that time give some guidance, but they were written at a time when parts were readily available so they aren’t really a perfect guideline for repairing pens today. ( I doubt there were instructions on how to remove dents and dings on a Parker 51 cap. The mandrels and clutch pulls you find today were developed through trial and error).

 

For the most part hobbyists that sell parts or other repairs are honest and reputable people.  They do what they do for the love of the hobby. No one is getting rich off this hobby. Contact them if you encounter any problems.