Comparative Costs Of Inks

[RJS]

Just had a little shop around for Diamine ink prices in Japan. Youre looking at about a £1.50-2 markup for the small bottles and about £2.50-3.50 for the big bottles. A £21 markup per bottle it is not.

[Karmachanic]

  On 10/8/2020 at 2:27 PM, RJS said:

Come on, dont be silly... I bet you any sum you like that each Diamine bottle doesnt cost £21 more than it does in England.

 

Your turn not to be silly. Not £ difference but %

A Diamine 80ml at Cult is £5.90, on Rakuten is £12.84 /¥1760 =100%+

https://search.rakuten.co.jp/search/mall/Diamine/?p=2

 

Anyway. Doesn't really matter. There are enough customers at either end who happily pay the price to obtain the ink they want.

When I order Stipula Maschiatto from Italy I will happily pay €15 for the ink and €15 for shipping. It'll last me a few years

Edited October 8, 2020 by Karmachanic

[RJS]

Nice work scrolling through a page of Diamine search results to find the bottles that are poor value. Haha, brilliant. Look at the price of the 30ml bottles, or the limited editions, or the Blue Edition etc and compare those prices. Or look on Amazon.co.jp.

[RJS]

Don't forget at that a lower price point the %change in the price after shipping would be more exaggerated. Like buying English Worcester Sauce in China- suddenly a £1.50 bottle is £3.50 there. Looks like a massive percentage change but it's only 2 quid. An English language book might cost £8 in England and £10 in China- also a £2 increase, but then weight and shipping costs would be comparable with the Worcester Sauce, so it's only small fraction more expensive than in England.

 

Edit: The most important point being, would the English speaking person in China that wanted the £8 book be willing to pay £28 for it (a difference in line with the Iroshzuku markup)? Would you think the price was too steep in knowledge that the book will have the £8 RRP printed on it, reminding you how much you got mugged off? Probably not, even though you earn £28 fast enough that the purchase isn't a big deal.

 

You'd; a) pay for it to be shipped to you from abroad, reducing the additional cost over the RRP by £10, b ) you'd wait till you were in a country which didn't markup so horribly and but it there, or c) you'd decide against buying it and buy another English language book available locally that you also kinda want, at what you consider a fair price.

Edited October 8, 2020 by RJS

[inkstainedruth]

Last year I ordered a Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Purple Cosmos and some ink from Cult Pens because even with the actual exchange rate not being quite as the "ideal" on xe.com, it was still less expensive than in the US, and was still available. This time around, when I wanted one of the new colors of the Pilot Falcons, it ended up being easier for me to get from Vanness, along with some ink samples and a couple of bottles. Shipping ended up being free and I'm still getting the package a day earlier than the original ETA (as in TODAY, rather than tomorrow). One of the inks I wanted was a Diamine ink -- so it would have been less expensive from Cult Pens. But I also wanted to try some inks, and they don't do samples, which they don't sell. Last year? I ordered ink from them, and two other companies. But this year, decided to limit purchases to some extent. That ended up meaning I could only get a small bottle of Diamine Pelham Blue, not one of the 80 ml bottles. But at least I was able to get a 30 ml one and the other inks I really wanted the most (I can always order again later). It wasn't as cost effective for me to order from Cult Pens this time. Next time? Who knows? It all depends.

And I like that I have options and can support multiple businesses. I do the same at pen shows (well, back when there WERE pen shows...) and deal with various repair people: "I need to get a Vac restored so I will go to X, and I have that Snorkel I paid $8.50 at that antiques shop's sale in July, so I will got to Y's table...."

As for Iroshizuku? I have backup bottles of most of the colors I like, thanks to everyone at OPS last year having them on sale before the price jump. Yes, it was probably cheaper in Japan. But GOING to Japan will cost me way more (assuming that they even allow people from "COVID-19 Central" across the border, of course) than whatever the US distributor markup will be.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

  On 10/8/2020 at 4:05 PM, RJS said:

The most important point being, would the English speaking person in China that wanted the £8 book be willing to pay £28 for it (a difference in line with the Iroshzuku markup)? Would you think the price was too steep in knowledge that the book will have the £8 RRP printed on it, reminding you how much you got mugged off?

I've been tested by the reverse situation. My late father wanted an English-Chinese dictionary of a particular description, and after quite a struggle I found one local Chinese bookstore (most of those have disappeared from Sydney CBD and Chinatown areas in the past decade) selling its only two copies for what amounted to three-and-a-half times the domestic price printed on the book cover. However, finding a Hong Kong-based retailer that takes online orders for that item and will agree to ship the book to Australia would be difficult; and, even if I could find one, international postage for a dictionary would be as substantial as the weight of the volume itself. So he demanded that I go buy it (with his money) from the local bookstore anyway.

Edited October 8, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[XYZZY]

One of my favorite posts on Pen Economics is The Pilot Pricing Puzzle. In there he also references a post on a different blog that contains a response from Pilot's UK Managing Director about pen prices. I think both posts are well written and describe some of the issues that businesses have to balance re pricing.

 

[Karmachanic]

  On 10/8/2020 at 3:59 PM, RJS said:

Look at the price of the 30ml bottles

 

As you wish.

30ml Diamine at Cult = £2.35. At Rakuten ¥660/£4.80. Same page, same 100%+ price difference.

https://search.rakuten.co.jp/search/mall/Diamine/?p=2

Edited October 8, 2020 by Karmachanic

[Shaggy]

It's a confluence of economics, marketing and capitalism. Plus the costs involved in shipping goods overseas to a foreign country.

 

And the neat part is, the consumer gets to decide whether or not to make the non-essential purchase.

 

It's ink. It's not like we're talking about a $3900 markup on heart medications.

[RJS]

  On 10/8/2020 at 9:19 PM, Karmachanic said:

 

As you wish.

30ml Diamine at Cult = £2.35. At Rakuten ¥660/£4.80. Same page, same 100%+ price difference.

https://search.rakuten.co.jp/search/mall/Diamine/?p=2

I explained where a couple of pound price increase comes from, and if you'd looked at Amazon you'd see those 30ml bottles can be bought for less than on Rakuten.

 

Anyway, what's your point? Are you equating a bottle that jumped by two pounds with a bottle that jumped £21?

[RJS]

  On 10/8/2020 at 9:42 PM, Shaggy said:

It's a confluence of economics, marketing and capitalism. Plus the costs involved in shipping goods overseas to a foreign country.

 

And the neat part is, the consumer gets to decide whether or not to make the non-essential purchase.

 

It's ink. It's not like we're talking about a $3900 markup on heart medications.

Americans get the bum end of most medicine markups...

[RJS]

  On 10/8/2020 at 5:21 PM, XYZZY said:

One of my favorite posts on Pen Economics is The Pilot Pricing Puzzle. In there he also references a post on a different blog that contains a response from Pilot's UK Managing Director about pen prices. I think both posts are well written and describe some of the issues that businesses have to balance re pricing.

 

The Pilot UK MD makes good points about the pens, but I can't see anything there that justifies the extent of the ink markup.

[Barkingpig]

I enjoyed A Smug Dill's post when he mentioned the cost of wine & its transitory nature. I stopped drinking in 1985 but well remember enjoying $100. bottles of wine with a pic nick or liquor bills equal to the food charges in nice restaurants. In fact a Friend (that enjoyed many of those times with me) & I were laughing @ our choice to have $10. bottles of water with dinner after we were both sober @ a meal in Brussels. We both remembered our extravagant indulgences when we were previously drinking in College & years after.

 

I buy whatever inks interest me & am not sorry to have spent what I have on them. I live simply & frugally, with the exception of this hobby. I enjoyed many other things earlier in life that cost a lot of money & now consider the pens, ink & paper my entertainment that has replaced travel & its related cost for me. I have spent more on landscaping my grounds that I will live to spend on this new hobby. I think this hobby is the right one for me to enjoy @ this "time in my life" & am grateful I discovered it.

[I-am-not-really-here]

It is not simply the ink that is being purchased but also the container it comes in. Plastic versus glass. If glass, how intricate is the shape? Is the cap plastic or metal? What is involved in printing the box, number of colors, etc.

 

For example, Caran d'Ache Chromatics with their big thick glass angled bottle within a hexagonal sandwich stand box. How could that be priced like Noodler's?

[lapis]

  On 10/9/2020 at 5:45 AM, Barkingpig said:

I buy whatever inks interest me & am not sorry to have spent what I have on them. I live simply & frugally, with the exception of this hobby. I enjoyed many other things earlier in life that cost a lot of money & now consider the pens, ink & paper my entertainment that has replaced travel & its related cost for me. I have spent more on landscaping my grounds that I will live to spend on this new hobby. I think this hobby is the right one for me to enjoy @ this "time in my life" & am grateful I discovered it.

 

Amen.

[sciumbasci]

Somehow I faintly remember that the cheapest available is ESSRI, as per sandy overall comparison. Am I correct? I tried to search the topic to no avail.

[RJS]

  On 10/9/2020 at 6:32 AM, I-am-not-really-here said:

It is not simply the ink that is being purchased but also the container it comes in. Plastic versus glass. If glass, how intricate is the shape? Is the cap plastic or metal? What is involved in printing the box, number of colors, etc.

 

For example, Caran d'Ache Chromatics with their big thick glass angled bottle within a hexagonal sandwich stand box. How could that be priced like Noodler's?

 

Like perfume, the container costs more than its contents. Edited October 9, 2020 by RJS

[aurore]

With all respect, the whole idea of these comparisons is objectively a bit pointless. At least because it looks completely different in any particular country and even within one country the retailers have different prices.

 

As mentioned several times, the prices of most inks/brands are very much geographically dependent and we can discuss all night long why or why not it is so.

One of the reasons is retailers themselves. An average retailer is often argumenting an XY ink has to be expensive because of XYZ bla bla bla (not rarely it means tons of BS, for instance the owner of the biggest local pen store claimed Iroshizuku inks are "flax seed oil based, not water based, hence the price", beside the whole idiotism of this claim I must mention the ink costs about the equivalent of 40 USD here). But to be fair we must compare comparable, being in the EU Iroshizuku inks are a good little example: the retailers buy it from the very same source but the prices vary from 25 EUR to 40 EUR. Why? Because the retailers set it this way. It is their right and the decision who buy the ink from is up to us. Fair enough.

 

The other reason is the manufacturer's policy. While GvFC and perhaps MB inks prices are rather similar, some other inks differ almost ridiculously. As mentioned, a Pelikan Edelstein ink (with a bit of luck but without any special discounts) can be bought in Europe for about 10-11 EUR (and that including about 20% VAT!), but usually retails at 15 EUR (incl. VAT). while the price in States is often nearly triple. The same goes for a plenty of other inks/brands.

 

Also, as for the manufacturer's policy, kicking up the prices as a reaction to the growing popularity, which is something Sailor performed not a long time ago discontinuing their 15 USD Jentle 50ml round bottles replacing them with 15 USD 20ml bottles subsequently introducing new inks in Manyo line in cube bottles cheaper per ml than in 20ml bottles but more expensive than it used to be. And even reintroducing the old round 50ml bottles with old inks as LE but for 20 USD (at least this is what they cost from pensachi). This is a very unpleasant attitude.

 

I wholeheartedly believe buying inks is mostly about some kind of pleasure (even the purchase itself pleases many of us). So logically there is no logic. What is the point of buying some ink cheaply if you don't enjoy the ink or eventually the process of getting it? So theoretically whatever some ink costs and wherever you buy it from it is all perfect as long as you are happy with it.

Any attempts to objectify the whole subject are misleading. All the "we pay for the bottle" and "transport is expensive" etc. Why is it important? For instance an Iroshizuku 50ml ink in a glass bottle incl. outer box and selling tax costs about 13 USD in Japan and (currently) 22 USD in States. What does the bottle or transport have to do with the 40 USD price in some European countries? Nothing.

 

And after all any such discussion is about everyone's personal approach. So I would add my own. Since I know (better than any human being really needs) prices of most inks worldwide I am lately trying to concentrate purely on inks I enjoy (or I suppose I might) made by companies and bought from retailers I respect. That said I usually buy from LCDC and my favourite brands are R&K, Diamine (with all discounts their inks cost appx. a dime per ml) and Waterman, beside those I have some older Sailor/Kobe inks I enjoy, I also have quite a lot of Pilot Blue-Black ink. Particularly R&K inks (considering EU prices) are fabulous (in my opinion) - the company treats the customers extremely well in every way and all the products are great (standard, sketch and document inks and even the cleaning fluid which unlike Diamine or Herbin pen flush removes dried nano-pigment inks such as those made by R&K or Sailor).

Overall I very much agree with what white_lotus stated in a thread regarding "premium" inks.

 

 

  On 8/8/2020 at 5:54 PM, white_lotus said:

I acquired a good number of Sailor Japanese store-exclusive inks back when they were relatively cheap and easy to obtain. I even got a number of Maruzen, Sankodo, and a couple others that were much harder to obtain. Are they that much better than the regular Sailor ink? Probably not. Some of them are unique like P&M Cigar/Sailor Rikyu-cha.

 

These days I'm not interested in paying super premium prices for ink from any brand. Ink is still mostly water with some dye, and chemicals to help with the flow and keep the ink shelf-stable over time. I can't even imagine what "premium" would mean for an ink: fancier bottle, fancier box/packaging, more dye, all of these? Or does the ink magically write better? My guess is the last is not true at all for any premium ink.

 

To answer the original question, I'm very happy to have Ishida Bungu inks, Pen and Message inks, the Maurzen's, the Style Dee Delta shop inks, and an Iron Blue from one of the shops that is my favorite of all time dark blue. KWZ Monarch, Northern Twilight, and Confederation Brown. Would I seek them out now, if I didn't have a bunch of ink? Probably not.

Edited October 9, 2020 by aurore

[inkstainedruth]

  On 10/8/2020 at 5:21 PM, XYZZY said:

One of my favorite posts on Pen Economics is The Pilot Pricing Puzzle. In there he also references a post on a different blog that contains a response from Pilot's UK Managing Director about pen prices. I think both posts are well written and describe some of the issues that businesses have to balance re pricing.

 

Thanks for posting these. Very interesting stuff.

Of course that doesn't explain Pilot's (IMO completely boneheaded) decision to ONLY sell some of the Decimo colors in the US (since my complaint to Pilot USA, I'll note that they're now selling some of the colors formerly not offered here -- but still not the Grey). So Pilot-US's loss is my gain, and that of the eBay seller in Japan who I got the pen from.... And while the Dark Blue is now available, I may decide that if I want one, I'll go to eBay again for a better price (even with eBay now charging local sales taxes...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Mysterious Mose]

To repeat a question in the OP, why is there such a variance in the price of inks? E.g., in both my list (FPH, $/oz.) and the list supplied by Lapis (Germany, euros/ml), Pelikan Edelstein ink costs about two or three times what Pelikan 4001 ink costs. Ink by the same company! Is there some advantage of the former over the latter?

 

I have done some correlation of the two lists and the results are pretty much the same. Diamine, Parker, Waterman, Sailor and Pelikan 4001 are in the least expensive range and Pilot (iroshizuku), Graf Von Faber-Castell, Pelikan Edelstein and Caran D'ache are in the most expensive range. The order of ink by price is about the same on the two lists.

This thread has gone into interesting discussions, such as how prices for the same ink vary by location and how users are willing to spend a lot for ink they like.

 

I took a year of Economics in college and remember the concept that in a free market, price depends on supply and demand. What about different products with different properties? The question in the OP remains: what do you get for the higher prices? I'm in the process of ordering from The Writing Desk. Pilot ink costs about 29 pounds for 50ml and Waterman and Diamine inks cost about 5 pounds for 50ml. Is Pilot ink worth six times the other inks?