X-Height And Script Weight

[dms525]

Too much time on my hands, sheltering in place with pens and ink.

 

 

 

Stay well all, and Happy writing!

 

David

[antarmukhee]

This is amazing !

Forgive me for my ignorance of variable width writing - I am new to calligraphy.

In the first sentence written with blue ink, did the shades of dark and light colour develop by itself or did you shade them intentionally?

What nib width would be appropriate if I want to use such a pen for routine writing? I want to use it primarily for routine writing but showing some degree of line width variation.

[BaronWulfraed]

For "routine writing" (note-taking, correspondence) you probably won't want anything over 1.1mm, and likely smaller. I have a Pilot Vanishing Point with a "stub" nib. It produces a 0.6mm x 0.2mm line.

 

And it may be a "stub" you want rather than an "italic" nib. The gamut (at least in my mind) runs from stub -> cursive italic -> formal italic.

 

Stubs have the least variation, but are most supportive of "routine writing". They have more rounded corners and do not dig into the paper. Cursive italics have more variation while retaining slightly round corners -- they don't dig into paper, but do require the nib to held properly flat to the paper; lifting one side will result in losing ink contact with the paper. Formal italics provide the greatest variation within a width, but are not really suited for anything done at speed. They have sharp corners, and any tilting of the nib will result in the corner cutting into the paper -- imagine trying to write with a small wood chisel.

 

What actual size to choose comes down to what your "routine writing" line heights are... Consider a lower-case "e" -- say your normal stroke with a common medium (0.4mm ball) leaves an opening that is just 0.4mm across, then 0.6mm stub will leave only a 0.2mm opening, and a 0.8mm stub/cursive italic is going to completely fill in the opening.

[antarmukhee]

For "routine writing" (note-taking, correspondence) you probably won't want anything over 1.1mm, and likely smaller. I have a Pilot Vanishing Point with a "stub" nib. It produces a 0.6mm x 0.2mm line.

 

And it may be a "stub" you want rather than an "italic" nib. The gamut (at least in my mind) runs from stub -> cursive italic -> formal italic.

 

Stubs have the least variation, but are most supportive of "routine writing". They have more rounded corners and do not dig into the paper. Cursive italics have more variation while retaining slightly round corners -- they don't dig into paper, but do require the nib to held properly flat to the paper; lifting one side will result in losing ink contact with the paper. Formal italics provide the greatest variation within a width, but are not really suited for anything done at speed. They have sharp corners, and any tilting of the nib will result in the corner cutting into the paper -- imagine trying to write with a small wood chisel.

 

What actual size to choose comes down to what your "routine writing" line heights are... Consider a lower-case "e" -- say your normal stroke with a common medium (0.4mm ball) leaves an opening that is just 0.4mm across, then 0.6mm stub will leave only a 0.2mm opening, and a 0.8mm stub/cursive italic is going to completely fill in the opening.

 

Thank you.. Your explanation made it clear. I will try out a few stub nibs to get a feel of routine writing for my handwriting. I have been looking at videos on youtube and other posts here about oblique nibs. Do you write with oblique nibs for your calligraphy or just straight ones? Is it just a user preference related to how one holds the hand while writing or is the oblique nib used in certain types of calligraphy?

Edited July 28, 2020 by S_B_P

[BaronWulfraed]

 

Thank you.. Your explanation made it clear. I will try out a few stub nibs to get a feel of routine writing for my handwriting. I have been looking at videos on youtube and other posts here about oblique nibs. Do you write with oblique nibs for your calligraphy or just straight ones? Is it just a user preference related to how one holds the hand while writing or is the oblique nib used in certain types of calligraphy?

I have no luck with oblique nibs -- and actually purchased a replacement nib unit for my Pelikan because the OB just didn't work for me. Besides making my horizontal strokes too fat and verticals thin (pretty much the opposite of most calligraphic hands) I just couldn't keep the nib flat on the paper -- I, almost instinctively, tend to keep the nib slit "up", but the OB nib required me to rotate the pen and nib putting the slit off-center to the left.

 

[MY Opinion] A "left-foot" oblique seems more suited to a left-handed underwriter as it puts the widest stroke on the vertical, closer to how a non-oblique nib is oriented in a right-hander.

 

While I've dabbled with calligraphy over the years, I've never spent the time to actually learn a hand. For this dabbling I've accrued a significant number of pen sets: Sheaffer NoNonsense era set of three in small/medium/large [they don't provide numeric measurements], the German produced (as I recall) Sheaffer sets with the rubberized sections, I've got a late production Osmiroid set (one pen, 6 nibs), a Platignum set [i think], a Staedtler set (5 pens, 6 nibs as I recall -- might be 4&5), and a pair of Lamy Joys (1.1 and 1.5mm). a pair of Aurora pens with chisel edged formal italic nibs.

 

Addendum: If discussing /dip/ pens, an oblique nib holder is useful for the Flex-based hands (Copperplate, Spencerian), as it puts the nib in alignment for a pull stroke in the direction that is often the thickest line (top right to bottom left). I don't see it being of much use for flat-edge hands (Blackletter/Gothic, Uncial, Italic) as those typically have the thinnest line in the / orientation, thickest \ and horizontals and verticals about even.

Edited July 28, 2020 by BaronWulfraed

[dms525]

This is amazing !

Forgive me for my ignorance of variable width writing - I am new to calligraphy.

In the first sentence written with blue ink, did the shades of dark and light colour develop by itself or did you shade them intentionally?

What nib width would be appropriate if I want to use such a pen for routine writing? I want to use it primarily for routine writing but showing some degree of line width variation.

 

You are not going to find many stock italic nibs that narrow. Almost all the pens I use routinely have custom-ground nibs. Stipula makes a nice 0.9mm nib both gold and steel. The Pilot "CM" nib on the Plumix and Metropolitan pens are very reasonable and very usable. There are others, but most narrow stock "italic" nibs don't have much line variation. However, if what you mean by "routine" is Palmer-type cursive, you don't want as crisp a nib as for italic calligraphy or other styles using a chisel tipped nib.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[BaronWulfraed]

Ink/paper choice can also have an influence.

 

In my test, a Lamy Joy 1.1mm pen produced 0.8mm x 0.4mm (so, only a 2X thick/thin variation)

 

An old Stipula Passaporto italic nib produced 0.9mm x 0.2mm (for a 4X variation)

 

And, as previously mentioned, my Pilot Vanishing Point 18K stub nib gave me 0.6mm x 0.2mm (a 3X variation) (For comparison another Vanishing point with a 14K B nib produced 0.6mm x 0.4mm, so even that qualified as "stub")

 

 

The Passaporto is not a pen for learning calligraphy -- it is the size of a large horse pill, or average Swiss Army knife model (Tinker class).

[A Smug Dill]

What nib width would be appropriate if I want to use such a pen for routine writing? I want to use it primarily for routine writing but showing some degree of line width variation.

I will try out a few stub nibs to get a feel of routine writing for my handwriting.

Or you can start off with measuring the objective x-height in examples of your subjective "routine writing". If you routinely write with an x-height of 2.5mm, then (according to Eleanor Winters in her book, Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond, the standard x-height being five nib widths) you'd be looking for a broad-edged nib with a 0.5mm-wide edge; or an x-height of 3.5mm would "require" a 0.7mm Italic nib. Nemosine used to sell 0.6mm and 0.8mm Stub nibs (in #6 size) made by JoWo, on its pen models and also as standalone nibs. The M nibs on the Pilot Plumix, in my experience, leave lines of roughly 0.7mm at their widest; but you can get a F nib for the Plumix, as I've belatedly discovered, as long as you're not limiting yourself to what is readily available from local or even US retailers, but are prepared to order from wherever and deal with shipping and tax/duty as required. Or you can pay a nibmeister to customise a nib to your specifications; Dan Smith at Nibsmith.com did one for me when I ordered a Pelikan M600 from him, and it's one of my very favourite nibs. Nibs.com and FPNibs.com offer the service, as does Fontoplumo (and I think La Couronne du Comte, too) in the Netherlands.

[inkstainedruth]

If I'm doing calligraphy (which, on extremely rare occasions I do) I look to see what the x-height for a specific hand is (as well as how much to add for ascenders and descenders) and mark x-heghts for ruling lines (a t-square is really useful for this, BTW) in pencil. The x-height is going to be correspondingly taller or shorter, depending on the nib -- but that's all going to be proportional to the specific nib.

The easy way is to mark the x height (as in David's examples, with the alternating boxes) on a separate piece of paper, and then use it to mark the edge of the paper you're going to be actually writing on (or along a vertical line marking the left margin). I don't do italic all that much (for the stuff I do, I often prefer stuff like uncial or various blackletter/gothic scripts), so I don't know about what the "standard" x-height and ascender/descender heights are for italic (or what is considered "proper"/"ideal" for that hand.

I have a lot of friends in the SCA who do calligraphy, and I remember a story one guy told me years ago. He and someone else were looking at some extant manuscript, and trying to figure out the posture of the original scribe because the lettering was apparently, well, odd.... He said that they finally decided that the original was written by someone sitting at a 45° angle to the work surface (i.e., instead of facing the desk directly), and with his free arm draped over the back of the chair....

Ruth Morrisson aka instainedruth

[BaronWulfraed]

If I'm doing calligraphy (which, on extremely rare occasions I do) I look to see what the x-height for a specific hand is (as well as how much to add for ascenders and descenders) and mark x-heghts for ruling lines (a t-square is really useful for this, BTW) in pencil. The x-height is going to be correspondingly taller or shorter, depending on the nib -- but that's all going to be proportional to the specific nib.

The easy way is to mark the x height (as in David's examples, with the alternating boxes) on a separate piece of paper, and then use it to mark the edge of the paper you're going to be actually writing on (or along a vertical line marking the left margin). I don't do italic all that much (for the stuff I do, I often prefer stuff like uncial or various blackletter/gothic scripts), so I don't know about what the "standard" x-height and ascender/descender heights are for italic (or what is considered "proper"/"ideal" for that hand.

Ever seen one of these before? https://www.amazon.com/Alvin-AL666-Lettering-Guide-Template/dp/B001DNAHRO

Edited August 9, 2020 by BaronWulfraed

[dftr]

I hope it's okay to revive an old thread here?  I was curious to see what the thoughts were on how widely spaced the letters and writing was?  In general I think you should have enough space to fit an 'a' between each word.  But within the word, is it preference how wide you make the bowl of your 'a' or 'h' ?  

 

I've been using an old 2.3mm Reform Calligraph pen and it is wonderful for seeing your errors and inconsistencies.  I also do realize my tendency is to write at 2.5-3 nib heights which has a big effect on my 'e' and 'o'  

[inkstainedruth]

In my experience (and of course to some extent it depends on the hand you are using) you want to have a bit more space between the straight letters (stuff like h and l, as well as m & n, etc.) than you do between the round letters (o and a, the bottoms of b and d, as well as the the curve part of e).  That will make the spacing look "right" to your eye, without crowding the letters too much (the term is called "kerning").

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[dftr]

Oh, I thought "kerning" was that Canadian sport where they brush the ice.  Thanks for adding to my vocabulary.  

I'm just trying to use basic informal italic.  I didn't think of the letter combinations, but what you say makes sense?

 

Which letter do you use as a guide/reference?  For example, I feel my 'm' should be twice as wide as a 'n' ; 

I feel the letter 'a' is what I'm judging things around but not sure if that's the best choice.  I am practicing w/ a 2.3mm nib on Rhodia 5mm grid so it is helping to see 

the places I can improve.  

[inkstainedruth]

LoL -- you're thinking of 'curling" (why that's an Olympic sport completely escapes me, just like why table tennis is an Olympic sport...).

Are you working from some exemplar or book?  Because that will help you with the x-height and such for different hands, and looking at a manual will help you see what the spacing and width of the letters should nominally be.  

Of course I know some people who once tried to figure out what the posture of the original scribes were in some cases, while looking at medieval manuscript reproductions.  And was told that in one case they were convinced that the scribe had to be sitting at an angle to the writing surface, twisting, and having his free arm hanging down behind the back of his chair.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[dftr]

Long story but no specific exemplar.  I tried a long time w/ a Lefty Calligraphy book but have just now picked it up using my Right hand.

Perhaps the issue is when I was watching the classic LLoyd Renolds' video on youtube, he says offhand things like look at how ugly that 'n' is and my mind says it's a beautiful 'n' that I'd be happy with...  so I just want to find consistancy so my letters are all x'height.  But when writing, I notice for example how I automatically kern the last 2 words to squeeze it on a line where I may not do so if I wasn't reaching the end of the page...

 

I've looked at some of the historical documents and I can appreciate the technique and the scribe, but it doesn't appeal to me.  It's almost too good that it looks like a typewriter and not a human hand.  Consistancy is important in that the little inconsistancies show a human hand and spirit.  In some ways I prefer the postings other board members have put up here.  

 

Do you have exemplars or suggestions?  

[inkstainedruth]

Not to hand, sorry.  But somewhere in the house I have a copy of Jacqueline Svaren's book from back when I took calligraphy in college.  And I have an autographed copy of Marc Drogin's Medieval Calligraphy from a talk a friend of mine and I went to years ago (as in she and I were both still single and my 35th wedding anniversary is next year).  I've seen calligraphy books reproduced online as well but I don't remember where offhand.

Some calligraphy pen sets include pamphlet instructions for figuring not only how to make the letters themselves, but also the x-height and how to calculate the height of ascenders and depth of descenders for specific hands (basically in order to mark the rule lines with a pencil which can be erased later).  I ended up with a couple of those when I was buying a calligraphy pen set at an estate sale company's warehouse sale a couple of years ago -- one pamphlet was from Sheaffer and I forget what company did the other one (the pen set itself was IIRC the Osmiroid set, which came with 3 or 4 different nib units).

You make a marks on a separate piece of paper to use as a template: some number of (alternating, for visibility) of boxes using the nib's width [I'm using Xs because I don't know if I can make rectangles in this font easily]:

X

  X

X

  X

X

  X

and do enough for the required heights and depths (which will vary according to the hand -- and also vary depending on the size nib you're using to get the correct heights).  Then make little tick marks on your page margin or edge, and use a T square to have the lines be parallel to each other, and perpendicular to the edge of the paper.

For figuring out the kerning, though, that's more the case of just eyeballing the letters (when I took calligraphy, the way we learned a lot of hands was to write each letter with a lower case O in between), and practicing a lot.

And the spacing and x-height is going to vary by the hand.  Uncial, for instance, is very round, whereas blackletter was designed to cram as much writing on a page as possible, and is very angular.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

 

[dms525]

Re. word and letter spacing: What I was taught is to have the space between words a bit less than the width of your "n." The spacing between letters is less straightforward, but one can generalize about the relative distance between different letter pairs. As has been said, the objective is to have the subjective visual spacing be consistent. So, the spacing between two vertical straight lines is greatest, for example between two l's or an l and a b. The space between two round letters is least, for example between two o's or an o and a d. The distance between a straight and a round letter is intermediate.

 

The spacing of some letter combinations is more challenging, for example the r-y combination. And you will find that adjusting the width of the exit serifs of minuscule i, l and t helps with letter spacing.

 

Changing the absolute spacing yields different visual effects. I recommend experimentation. However, for most types of writing, consistent letter and word and line spacing is more important than the absolute spacing.

 

Here is an exemplar from Lloyd Reynolds' 1969 edition of his "Italic Calligraphy and Handwriting Exercises and Text:"

 

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[amberleadavis]

Thank you for the explanation.

[inkstainedruth]

On 8/9/2020 at 3:42 PM, BaronWulfraed said:

Ever seen one of these before? https://www.amazon.com/Alvin-AL666-Lettering-Guide-Template/dp/B001DNAHRO

Never used one, but a friend of mine has one, or something very similar.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth