Which Pilot Is Finer?

[Maurizio]

Some of you may have seen my post in the First Stop forum last fall when I posted a few pen and ink drawings and mentioned my appreciation for Frank Lohan's pen and ink drawing books. Well my drawing skills are very slowly coming along. I am practicing drawing with pencil and with pen and ink. Pen and ink yields a better final result but is more difficult than pencil because once that ink line is on paper theres no correcting it. I l am drawing with traditional black ink and with some colors. The attached color ink of the trees uses just 3: Noodlers Old Manhattan Black, Noodlers Sequoia, and Sailor Doyou ( brown).

 

I have dip pens with Zebra G nibs but so far prefer to do my pen and ink sketches with fountain pens. I use a Pilot Desk Pen, fine point, and a Pilot Elite, fine point primarily. I also have a Sailor Realo, extra fine, but, believe it or not, this is still not as fine as the 2 aforementioned nibs. I also have a Pilot Falcon Metal, fine point, and this lays down a nice wet line but still not quite as fine as the first two pens. I also have a Platinum Desk Pen but was disappointed with that as not very fine. I do also have a Platinum Preppy .02 and a Platinum Plasir .05. The Preppy does lay a nice fine line too.

 

I want to buy another Pilot Pen because the way their nibs feel - for me - is better than the Sailor or the Platinums, but don't have the extra money to just buy 3 or 4 pens at once and try all the nibs, so Im asking you good folks here for your collective wisdom and hoping to hear from someone or some few people who have actually experienced these nibs.

 

So, my question: which nib is finer? A Pilot Elite extra fine, which Im leaning towards because the Elite fine I have lays such a nice fine line, or, a Pilot Custom 912 with a posting nib? Or, as a less likely candidate, is a Pilot Falcon extra fine nib going to be finer than those first two? Or finally, if I get a Platinum Ultra Extra Fine in a 3776 will that be finer than the three Pilots noted here?

 

Thanks in advance for any comments (last 3 attached photos are pen and ink).

Edited June 29, 2020 by Maurizio

[aimi]

I feel like I speak the PO nib gospel, but the PO is a drier-writing Pilot EF, so it will be marginally more fine than the Pilot EF (and it is my every day writing nib). This difference is most noticeable on poor paper. I don't have experience with the UEF.

 

Edit: here is a comparison I wrote and recently linked in another thread:

https://imgur.com/a/Qjuiydo

 

You'll notice the Pilot PO is a smidge finer than the EF (tallest character is about 3.5mm). I recently noticed that on regular envelopes, the PO performed significantly better than the Pilot Kakuno EF, probably due to the fact that it's more dry writing. Both were inked with Pilot Iroshizuku Kon Peki when I wrote on the envelope, and in this picture. I now have the pen inked with Waterman Serenity Blue, and I think it produces a finer line than the Iro line, which is probably just more wet.

Edited June 29, 2020 by aimi

[A Smug Dill]

So, my question: which nib is finer? A Pilot Elite extra fine, which Im leaning towards because the Elite fine I have lays such a nice fine line, or, a Pilot Custom 912 with a posting nib? Or, as a less likely candidate, is a Pilot Falcon extra fine nib going to be finer than those first two?

 

 

In my experience, the EF nib on the Pilot Elite 95S writes marginally finer than the SEF nib on a Pilot Elabo/Namiki Falcon.

 

There's no accounting for how much of the observed differences are attributable to variation between nominally identical nibs on each pen model, and also whether the pen-ink combination just works to deliver a drier (and consequently finer) line. though.

[AmandaW]

Ah, the never ending quest for a delicate line.

 

Is your Platinum Desk Pen the Platinum Carbon Ink Pen (it should say that on the barrel) or one of the other desk pen models? I ask because I have the Carbon one running Platinum Carbon ink and honestly it is beautifully fine and lovely to draw with - it's by far my favourite even though I have a number of other very fine and more costly pens!

 

Among the pens you list I have the Pilot Falcon SEF and Platinum #3776 in UEF. And another to consider which is the Pilot Penmanship EF it has a nice nib in a strange cheapy pen (I pulled the nib and put it in a Prera). None of those are inked at the moment, but I can do that later today and scan some squiggles for you to compare, if that would help.

[AmandaW]

All drawn with a light hand to show the finest line I can get.

 

[A Smug Dill]

All drawn with a light hand to show the finest line I can get.

 

 

 

Wow! Good job!

[mke]

Excuse me,

question 1: why does it need to be a Pilot/Platinum pen

question 2: does it need to be a gold nib?

 

Have you ever tried a needlepoint Jowo nib - as e.g. fpnibs.com sells?

The line width is 0.1 mm. I guess, this is really fine.

 

Or if it needs to be a Pilot/Platinum pen with gold nib, nibmeisters like fpnibs or others can grind it the way you want.

[Maurizio]

Excuse me,

question 1: why does it need to be a Pilot/Platinum pen

question 2: does it need to be a gold nib?

 

Have you ever tried a needlepoint Jowo nib - as e.g. fpnibs.com sells?

The line width is 0.1 mm. I guess, this is really fine.

 

Or if it needs to be a Pilot/Platinum pen with gold nib, nibmeisters like fpnibs or others can grind it the way you want.

No it doesn't. Thanks mke. Such a pen was not even on my radar and I wasn't aware of it. I will check the site and see if I like something. The idea of a .1mm needlepoint fountain pen nib is intriguing.

 

Addendum

I looked at the fpnibs website. The .1mm is a custom grind. For that, I'd prefer to send a pen I already own to a nibmeister here in the States rather than over to Spain. As I noted to Amanda, maybe I'll send a pen I'm not using, like my sitting-in-a-drawer Platinum Desk Pen to a nibmeister. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Maurizio

[Maurizio]

 

 

In my experience, the EF nib on the Pilot Elite 95S writes marginally finer than the SEF nib on a Pilot Elabo/Namiki Falcon.

 

There's no accounting for how much of the observed differences are attributable to variation between nominally identical nibs on each pen model, and also whether the pen-ink combination just works to deliver a drier (and consequently finer) line. though.

 

Thanks Smug, you're helping me confirm that I want to get another Elite; and of course you're right that normal production variation can account for differences and ink and paper choice also factor in. For my ink drawings I use fp-friendly paper such as Clairefontaine, Fabriano and Marumen and either Sailor Kiwa-guru or Platinum Carbon Black.

 

But, mke has given me another option to explore and I'm going to check out the needlepoint nibs on fpnibs.com, before I pull the trigger on another Elite, but not sure I have an extra pen to put one of those needlepoint nibs in, unless they sell them attached to some kind of pen.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Maurizio

[Maurizio]

Ah, the never ending quest for a delicate line.

 

Is your Platinum Desk Pen the Platinum Carbon Ink Pen (it should say that on the barrel) or one of the other desk pen models? I ask because I have the Carbon one running Platinum Carbon ink and honestly it is beautifully fine and lovely to draw with - it's by far my favourite even though I have a number of other very fine and more costly pens!

 

Among the pens you list I have the Pilot Falcon SEF and Platinum #3776 in UEF. And another to consider which is the Pilot Penmanship EF it has a nice nib in a strange cheapy pen (I pulled the nib and put it in a Prera). None of those are inked at the moment, but I can do that later today and scan some squiggles for you to compare, if that would help.

 

Thanks for your comments and posted examples Amanda. From what you've posted, the 3776 nib seems to be the finest.

Yes, there is something a bit neurotic about wanting that "perfect" fine pen, especially as I already have so many. But I do feel I need to chase that holy grail just a little bit more until I give up and get used to using the nice ones that I have. Or, I should just get used to using the dip nibs, but the fountain pens are so much more convenient for sketching and practice sketching, than the more involved procedure necessary to use the dip nibs.

 

mke has given me a new idea and I wasn't aware I could get a Jowo .1mm needlepoint nib and I'm also going to check that option out.

 

I looked at my Platinum desk pen. I believe the nib is supposed to be fine, so maybe a .5mm size. I got it direct from Japan via a Japanese seller. It is black plastic with a gold section ring and a gold tail (just gold-colored metal). The characters on the nib are in Japanese so I can't discern the actual nib size. Writing this post it just occurred to me that maybe I could send this Platinum off to a nibmeister for a grind into a needlepoint, a bit of a pricey option, but, since it's "retired" and uninked in a drawer, I won't care that much if the grind ruins it and just maybe I'll get a pen I'll actually appreciate using. I'll have to look at nibmeister recommendations.

[Maurizio]

I feel like I speak the PO nib gospel, but the PO is a drier-writing Pilot EF, so it will be marginally more fine than the Pilot EF (and it is my every day writing nib). This difference is most noticeable on poor paper. I don't have experience with the UEF.

 

Edit: here is a comparison I wrote and recently linked in another thread:

https://imgur.com/a/Qjuiydo

 

You'll notice the Pilot PO is a smidge finer than the EF (tallest character is about 3.5mm). I recently noticed that on regular envelopes, the PO performed significantly better than the Pilot Kakuno EF, probably due to the fact that it's more dry writing. Both were inked with Pilot Iroshizuku Kon Peki when I wrote on the envelope, and in this picture. I now have the pen inked with Waterman Serenity Blue, and I think it produces a finer line than the Iro line, which is probably just more wet.

Thanks Aimi. I would like to try out a posting nib and wish I could afford to order all the pens I mentioned in my post to compare them. I think I'm going to go for the EF Elite, both because it's about $100. less expensive than the 912, and because I already like the way the unique nib on the Elite I have writes.

[peroride]

There is no finest perfection.

 

My conclusion after the hunt is the tripod needs two more legs to watch out for: Different ink and/or paper

 

Platinum Desk Pen is EF so it is the same as the Preppy 0.2 EF then no need to add the Preppy but who knows of manufacturer variance?

 

I have the 0.2 EF Preppy but it can finer than UEF with different ink and paper

 

UEF and PO are close but again it depends on ink and paper.

 

I also found steel concord grinds act like POs as the tines close the tine gap from the bend, but again ...

 

See the pattern?

 

Plus adding @AmandaW lovely mix of drawings shows the hand is also a factor.

Edited June 29, 2020 by peroride

[Maurizio]

Ah, the never ending quest for a delicate line.

 

Is your Platinum Desk Pen the Platinum Carbon Ink Pen (it should say that on the barrel) or one of the other desk pen models? I ask because I have the Carbon one running Platinum Carbon ink and honestly it is beautifully fine and lovely to draw with - it's by far my favourite even though I have a number of other very fine and more costly pens!

 

 

Amanda - after your nice comments about your Platinum Desk Pen I decided to give mine a 2nd chance. It does write nicely fine, but I do have to be more conscious of using the lightest touch possible. I don't have any Platinum Carbon Ink - I ordered a bottle today - but I'm using Sailor Kiwa-Guru and it's working ok. Before I decided I liked to sketch with fountain pen ink, I "juiced up" all of my fountain pen inks with drops glycerin and Liquitex flow aid, so all of my inks are wetter than average, which is generally good for writing smoothly and practicing calligraphy (my interest in which has waned as I've developed on interest in sketching), but not so good for achieving a fine line for drawing. When the Platinum Carbon ink arrives I will leave that bottle unadulterated and expect it will draw "drier" than the inks I have now.

[Bounce792]

 

Here is what I did in another post. As others have said, ink and paper affect the line width.

[Maurizio]

Thanks Bounce. Based on your sample this seems to be another bit of data in favor of the Platinum UEF. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet on a new pen and your and Amanda’s posts have me wavering between my leaning toward a Pilot Elite and the Platinum UEF.

 

As I explained above, I have “juiced up” all of my inks so they are all wetter than average. I’m waiting for my new bottle of Platinum Carbon Black to arrive so I can test my existing nibs for sketching with an “ordinary” ink that hasn’t been adulterated for wetness.

 

Of course paper too makes a difference. The paper I use for sketching is either Canson sketchbook acid-free paper, at maybe 65 lbs. not designed to stand up to ink, Strathmore watercolor paper (140 lb.), or Clairefontaine and Japanese paper such as Marumen which all handle ink nicely.

[GreenMountain]

 

Amanda - after your nice comments about your Platinum Desk Pen I decided to give mine a 2nd chance. It does write nicely fine, but I do have to be more conscious of using the lightest touch possible. I don't have any Platinum Carbon Ink - I ordered a bottle today - but I'm using Sailor Kiwa-Guru and it's working ok. Before I decided I liked to sketch with fountain pen ink, I "juiced up" all of my fountain pen inks with drops glycerin and Liquitex flow aid, so all of my inks are wetter than average, which is generally good for writing smoothly and practicing calligraphy (my interest in which has waned as I've developed on interest in sketching), but not so good for achieving a fine line for drawing. When the Platinum Carbon ink arrives I will leave that bottle unadulterated and expect it will draw "drier" than the inks I have now.

How exactly do you juice up ink with glycerine and Liquitex, please?

[Maurizio]

Hi GreenMountain - here is my post from 3 years ago:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/321641-shocking-ink-adulteration/

 

Let me know if you're unable to read it or if you have any questions.

[cellmatrix]

To the OP, congratulations on your writing progress! I am not an artist, but I have explored many of the extra fine nibs out there, which I mainly use for monoline business penmanship.

 

I have used a custom heritage pilot 912 with po nib extensively and it writes noticeably thinner than a pilot EF nib and much thinner than a Falcon SEF nib, the latter of which is very wet.

In my experience the Platiumn EF nib falls in between the pilot EF and pilot PO nib in terms of line thickness. I don't have the platinum UEF, but I remember Ethernautrix mentioning in her experience it was a smidgeon finer than the pilot PO.

Another nib, not pilot, that no one mentioned yet is Esterbrook 9550. It writes about as wide as a pilot EF, and is pretty smooth.

Another nib which has not yet come up on this thread, is the sheaffer quasi imperial with an EF short diamond steel nib. They are as fine as a pilot EF. The thing that makes them unique is that they have a slight waverly style upturn which gives a great combination of thinness and smoothness.

Having said all that, my favorite of the bunch and the one I have been using as my one pen for quite a while is my scratched up old black matte pilot vanishing point EF. Its pretty beat up but still writes really well.

[Maurizio]

Thanks you cellmatrix. You've got me wavering. I was leaning towards an EF Pilot Elite when I made this post, but the comments here have changed my mind. The choice is now between the 912 PO nib, and the Platinum UEF. Since I really like the way all my other Pilot nibs feel, and I have a few, including 2 VP's, a Custom Kaede, and a Falcon, I'm leaning strongly towards the 912.

[GreenMountain]

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Edited July 14, 2020 by GreenMountain