Oxidation Of Tipping Material

[ralfstc]

Echt jetzt? Steel is harder than iridium. Mind blown.

 

Now we need somebody with a spectrometer to have a look at a 51 nib!!!!

[BaronWulfraed]

Hardened steel is what you find in metal working files and maybe chisels and hammer heads... Not objects known for springiness or flexibility; they shatter before bending.

 

I doubt steel nibs qualify as "hardened"... Or, hardened to that level -- maybe initially hardened and then tempered to soften again to provide some springiness

 

The Mohs scale is a relative scratch test: does substance A produce scratches on substance B

Plain steel is around 4-4.5 on the Mohs scale https://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Blog/rockwell-scale-vs-the-mohs-scale/ A typical knife blade reaches 5.5 https://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Blog/what-is-the-mohs-scale/ while a file is 7-8... It is the rare knife blade that shows flexibility (filet knives, and some the the cheap stamped stainless knives, but few of the forged/ground blades -- I have some steel nibs that flex more than a pen-knife blade)

 

But look at the "absolute hardness" values on those links. Corundum is 2 to 4 times harder than that file, and around 6 times harder than the average knife blade.

Edited April 4, 2020 by BaronWulfraed

[OMASsimo]

Thanks to the kind contributions of Newton Pens and OMASsimo I spent a fascinating hour with wikipedia learning about the Mohrs hardness scale and Aluminium Oxide a humble mineral with fascinating properties - I didn't know it was used in lipstick. I spy the chance to be extra boring when I tell my wife about this.

 

So corundum (impure Al₂O₃₎ has a Mohrs rating of 9.5 - similar to Tungsten Carbide whereas

Osmium is rated 7 and

Ruthenium and Iridium 6 - 7,

Rhodium and Titanium 6.

 

I couldn't find a rating for the ruthenium, tungsten, rhenium alloys used by high-end pens but I guess they are in the same range as the pure elements.

 

But here is the interesting thing - hardened steel has a rating of 7.5 - 8.

 

So an untipped hardened stainless steel nib would not erode in writing as it is harder than a theoretical pure Iridium tip. However it would be less chemically inert (but perfectly adequate for most modern inks).

 

I have read there are some pure steel nibs for fountainpens without tipping but I had mentally categoried them as cheap, short lived and eventually scratchy (like a dip pen nib). But it seams this need not be the case.

 

Which begs the question, do we still need tipping?

 

If this assumption was true then making alloys wouldn't make much sense. Alloys often have properties which are very different from those of even the major components. Think of stainless nonmagnetic steel in contrast to raw iron or even carbon steel.

[AidenMark]

 

If this assumption was true then making alloys wouldn't make much sense. Alloys often have properties which are very different from those of even the major components. Think of stainless nonmagnetic steel in contrast to raw iron or even carbon steel.

 

 

Oh I don't know. You might be after ductility or malleability or even softness as is the case for some magnetics. But you are right - its a ball park guess in the absence of available facts.

 

Did you ever come across figure for the famous Re Ru W tipping Montblanc uses?

[tim77]

But here is the interesting thing - hardened steel has a rating of 7.5 - 8.

 

That's an interesting point. You'd still need to make the nib from a softer steel and weld the tip on, but you might save a small amount by not using "iridium". For all I know this is exactly how cheap nibs are made.

 

High-carbon steel workshop tools can rust rather easily unless kept covered in a thin layer of oil. They are also sharpened frequently. I'll look for a piece of hard steel and see how it fares when immersed in ink...

[Astronymus]

My guess is it won't take it well. Carbon steel is hard, elastic and has the ability to hold an edge thanks to high levels of carbon, but is delicate when it comes to acids, leachs or even oxygen. That's why you cover it against the air or liquids with oil or paint to prevent corrosion. So somoeone invented stainless steel and such. Thanks to chrome and/or nickel in the alloy it's much more resistent to chemical reactions.

 

And there is magnetic stainless steel. In case you really need one. I have a piece on my wall for my notes.

[AidenMark]

There are a few threads on the forum about nibs without tipping. This one for example.

 

I wonder if tipping material is like a gold nibs - used more through tradition and aesthetics of the writing experience than though necessity.

 

I seriously wonder if tipping a chromium steel nib is functionally needed. Imagine a tiny, shiny, steel ball-bearing on the end of the nib - how much writing would make it wear out - more than a lifetime's worth I would suspect. How many ball points ever wear out and they are moving parts.

Edited April 6, 2020 by AidenMark

[BaronWulfraed]

I seriously wonder if tipping a chromium steel nib is functionally needed. Imagine a tiny, shiny, steel ball-bearing on the end of the nib - how much writing would make it wear out - more than a lifetime's worth I would suspect. How many ball points ever wear out and they are moving parts.

Most ball-points are 1) wrapped in a lubricant ink, 2) disposed of when the ink runs out.

 

I have an old Levenger roller-ball that uses International Standard cartridges. These are not lubricated, and the section with the ball goes through multiple cartridges.

 

I also have about 5 remaining spare sections for the pen, since after some (uncounted) number of cartridges, the ball (and/or socket) does wear enough to create unsightly irregular lines with "globs" of heavy ink on one side or the other.

[Astronymus]

But ballpoint balls aren't smooth, are they? I think they are a little bit porous to overcome the surface tension and carry the ink with them when rolling?

[BaronWulfraed]

But ballpoint balls aren't smooth, are they? I think they are a little bit porous to overcome the surface tension and carry the ink with them when rolling?

Not "porous", but likely micro-dimpled (think golf-ball, shrunken down)

 

"Porous" would be a felt-tip -- Flair, for example, or the precise nylon tips of things like the Pigma Micron.

[Astronymus]

That's what I meant, thx.

[FarmBoy]

Early alloys of Platinum group metals were porous. They resemble a sponge with holes or pores throughout the material.

[basterma]

In terms of corrosion resistance, I think you are right, tipped of untipped won't make too much a difference with modern pens and inks. However, I think it is more about the writing experience for me. The folded and rolled stainless steel nibs that I have are all smooth writers, but the sweet spot is smaller than with tipped nibs. These untipped nibs will be unforgiving of twisting the pen around the central axis of the pen. The folded ones will scratch and skip very quickly when rotated around the central axis of the pen, while the rolled ones will lose inkflow very quickly. Tipped nibs are much more tolerant of different ways of holding the pen.

[Newton Pens]

I've seen a dozen pictures of porous pitted nibs online over the years, and I've had several in my hands, too, but for the life of me I can't find a picture right now.

[JosephKing]

There are a few threads on the forum about nibs without tipping. This one for example.

 

I wonder if tipping material is like a gold nibs - used more through tradition and aesthetics of the writing experience than though necessity.

I was under the impression that tipping was added precisely because of gold nibs: the gold was more prone to wearing away, so tipping was added to save it.

[Honeybadgers]

There are a few threads on the forum about nibs without tipping. This one for example.

 

I wonder if tipping material is like a gold nibs - used more through tradition and aesthetics of the writing experience than though necessity.

 

I seriously wonder if tipping a chromium steel nib is functionally needed. Imagine a tiny, shiny, steel ball-bearing on the end of the nib - how much writing would make it wear out - more than a lifetime's worth I would suspect. How many ball points ever wear out and they are moving parts.

 

Yes, because stainless steel nibs aren't fully quench hardened. If they were, they'd shatter if you dropped them, not bend.

 

They can be hardened/tempered (most aren't) or just have the mild amount of work hardening from being stamped.

 

So untipped isn't terrible (which is why we see it used) but will noticeably wear down over time more than tipping.

 

The rolled tip on my esterbrook 1xxx steel nibs are worn in very flat with heavy use.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[AidenMark]

I've seen a dozen pictures of porous pitted nibs online over the years, and I've had several in my hands, too, but for the life of me I can't find a picture right now.

 

There is a nice illustration on Nibs.com of a pummice-stone textured Sheaffer"s 1918 nib here. The article is we worth reading, incidentally.

[Bo Bo Olson]

"Iridium' often has no super expensive iridium, but other hard rare earths. It don't matter.....in I use to buy cheap old pens.... vintage, that sat in the dark of the drawer for a generation or three, there was micro-corrosion or invisible iridium rust....................equals drag.

 

Back when I use to buy lots of affordable old pens, and micro-mesh was much harder to come by than now....I used good quality Brown Paper bags, to smooth the drag off. One Does have to know the difference between a good and a poor quality brown paper bag...........which many of the youth of the round plastic back just don't know. Do Not Use a Hairy Brown paper bag!!!!!! (Smooth white ones are no good either.)

 

Ask your local old folk for one if they got a good brown paper bag laying around.....you can use 8 sides.

 

With micro mesh you have to do mini work and be real careful to get rid of the drag......lots of folks think they got to smooth a nib to butter smooth at all costs.

IMO don't. Good and Smooth is the level just under Butter Smooth, is smooth enough and you don't slide off of slick paper. If a nib has the drag removed and it is back to good and smooth.....dry ink will let you feel the paper, wet ink will take away paper feel. I do prefer 90g or better papers....but I like shading inks also.

 

Brown Paper back trick.

The nib has to be aligned.....sometimes to often that is the only problem with a nib.

 

(Do not make figure 8's...Ol'Griz a passed repairman here, said figure r8's cause baby bottom)

 

Rotating the nib always make big circles left and right, squiggles up and down.......left and right. Do that for 15 seconds. Test. Is the drag gone?

Do that two to three times more for 15 seconds, your drag problem should be over. (If more than 4-5 times...use micro-mesh (if you have already ruined two dirt cheap pens's nibs...for experience) Richard Binders micro-mesh smoothing kit, has tow pens to ruin to learn how to smooth a nib.....but if one is only after getting rid of drag...smoothing is a level deeper than is necessary.............you don't need a 10X loupe using a good quality brown paper bag, like you 'have to have' when smoothing.

 

If you rotate your nib always the brown paper bag can not hurt your nib.............all it will do is get rid of the drag....it is not good for making a nib butter smooth.

Micro-mesh was once was lots harder to find than now....so being cheap used a good quality paper bag. Being old knew the difference between a quality brown paper bag and the cheap junk.

 

I now use micro mesh, but did learn all the tricks on a brown paper bag.To get rid of drag, I do two-three seconds of rotation, perhaps three times.... Micro-mesh is dangerous in Ham Fisted hands, and many of us had or have Ham Fists.

 

Many of the pro's say don't use a brown paper bag (and are much against it) it is not as regular made as micro mesh. They of course smooth nibs for a living....so do practice/ruin two cheap pens first with micro-mesh.

The Brown Paper bag trick is only to remove invisible iridium rust./drag.

[Ron Z]

Bobo, please don't suggest using any paper bag for smoothing nibs. You know better than that.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Ron...

I don't recommend the brown paper bag for smoothing**...just removing drag.....

Which is a quite step away from smoothing...to butter smooth, .the way I see it. The Brown paper bag is Not and I mentioned it often is not good for smoothing, just removing drag.

 

***Smoothing is looking from the way I've been reading for the last decade.....is looking for butter smooth,. Which a good quality brown paper bag won't do.. For butter smooth, first ruin a couple nib tips with micro-mesh, use a 10X loupe and go for it.

 

The Brown paper bag trick was quite common here on the com until micro-mesh became more available.. I learned it here, and with out it, would not have a fountain pen collection.

I live in Germany.

Buy a old use pen for E15-20/$20, mail it $5 across the Pond, get the drag smoothed off +$20 . Pay super expensive US postal cost to airmail back by F35. +$15-20/

I'd have three two pens,...no.... just the P-75. The others I inherited with 30-40 years of none use = drag would have been sold at the flea market....for the 1 Euro and the one I'd sold for E5 befoer finding it was worth a lot of money.

No.... I'd sold the Osmia-Faber-Castel 540....worth $240 before the last depression. And that P-75 $225 way back then, would have ended up back in my wife's Jewelry jail.

I'd never had a reason to get into ink or paper with just one hidden away fountain pen...if I had old pens with drag..

 

I do realize no one buys old cheap pens any more with out all sorts of experience with micro-mesh, in the only cheap pens that are bought are new..