Rohrer Und Klingner 'salix', Possible Safety Concerns?

[Ius est vigilantibus]

Greetings fountain pen friends,

 

As I take quite good care of my Montblanc pens (146, 149, Heritage 1912), I was wondering if I could safely use R&K 'Salix' Iron-gall ink in my Montblanc pens?

I clean my pens weekly and I use pen flush when changing inks, especially when I've used Pelikan BB in a pen. I also make sure to use my pens daily.

 

What are your - long or short term - experiences with regards to R&K 'Salix'? Did it damage any feeds, discolour any ink windows and/or did it behave badly in any other way?

 

Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to your responses.

 

Warm greetings,

 

Heidegger

 

 

[katerchen]

I wouldn't put IG in anything that I can't easily take apart and clean. Eg: a C/C filler and friction-fit nibs (or where the nib and feed are otherwise easily removable).

 

No scientific explanation, other than a Diamine Registrar's (yes, totally different ink) ruined my Visconti by completely fusing the nib collar to the section.

 

I know it's paranoia, but my pens, my prejudice

 

-k

[meiers]

Like Katerchen, I err on the side of caution. The Heritage 1912 is expensive and difficult to repair. If I were you, I would limit the use of the iron gall ink to the Meisterstück pens because they are easily cleaned and disassembled. I have used iron-gall inks in my 146 without any difficulty.

Edited February 26, 2020 by meiers

[inkstainedruth]

Salix and Scabiosa are supposed to have a lower IG level than some other brands (which is why Salix stays bluer longer). As a result they are supposed to be more benign than other IG inks. I have not tried it in a pen with a sac, but I routinely put IG inks into pens with stainless steel nibs.

I don't know how a commercial pen flush would do with an iron gall ink, but then I don't use commercial flushes. For low pH inks (like IG inks), I don't use the "normal" flush recipe (roughly 9 parts distilled water to 1 part ammonia, with a drop of Dawn dish detergent); instead, after flushing with distilled water a few times, I use a solution that substitutes white vinegar for the ammonia). Flush/soak that for a bit, then rinse well with distilled water. After that, I do use the ammonia solution (someone on here with more chemistry education than me explained in a thread a while back why that works -- but you definitely do NOT want to start with the ammonia solution with anything that is acidic.

I have Salix in a Parker Vector at the moment, and other than that the ink is on the dry side (and I think it's a relatively dry pen as well -- it's one of the reissued French-production Vectors from last year), I haven't had any issues with it. It's pretty well behaved (I just used it to fill out the vehicle info on a hotel reservation form about an hour ago, and that printout was not exactly on Tomoe River paper.... I didn't see any feathering and I don't expect there to be any bleedthrough).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[tinta]

In my experience, with only Sailor 1911S/Pro-Gear Slim pens & the occasional Kaweco, I have not experienced any staining or clogging with neither R&K Salix nor Scabiosa. I consider them mild IG inks.

 

Any pen filled with ferrogallic ink should not be allowed to dry out, but then, neither should any pen with dye-based ink

Using FPN member Sandy1's thorough & concise cleaning recommendations have kept all my Sailor & Kaweco pens happy, not to mention a 60+ year old MB.

 

I regularly use iron-gall inks like the two inks mentioned above plus old MB Midnight Blue (still good), Akkerman Ijzer-Galnoten blauw/zwart #10, Platinum's Blue/Black, Lavender/Black, Cassis/Black. One of my pens is always filled with Platinum's B/B (For a while, this ink was the only Japanese ferrogallic ink available in Canada, now Platinum's Classic inks give a greater variety.)

 

IMO the iron-gall inks formulated for fountain pens by pen or ink manufacturers can be completely safe if a reasonable pen hygiene is observed.

 

 

[silverlifter]

Montblanc produced an iron gall ink for decades for their pens. There is no reason that you would not use a modern iron gall like Salix with zero concerns, other than superstition.

 

The amount of FUD around iron galls is truly staggering. They are great inks, they won't damage your pen and they are not particualrly difficult top flush even if you do let it dry out, just add some ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to your water and flush away.

[Ius est vigilantibus]

Thanks everyone for your great, informative replies.

I will heed your advice and err on the safe side.

I agree with the observation of FUD. I lean towards only using it in my 146.

 

Warm greetings and thanks again,

Heidegger

[txomsy]

As a general rule, if you use IG inks, it is advisable to clean your pens twice a year...

 

That said, I've been using MB IG-based inks for decades on MB pens with no problem. I have even let them dry out (I forgot they were loaded) with no problem either. I have bought many vintage pens with encrusted IG BB ink and they washed out with tap water and no problem.

 

I do not question that IG inks may be troublesome, but from my experience, not as much as usually stated.

 

What I do have seen is that some IG inks tend to be dry and may result in hard starts in fine nibs (which I specially favour), likely due to the ink drying in the nib. But it rarely went so far that a "lick" (actually, I just humidify a cloth and pass it over the nib, or I would lick a finger and pass it over the nib), or a shake will not fix it. Even then, a quick dip in tap water (I always have a small recipient with tap water) --or maybe two- will usually get rid of the problem. It's only very rarely that I have had to prime the nib by twisting the piston or converter, and I think I only had to worry beyond that when a pen that was full of ink had been left to completely dry over several years (and then, yes, I had to load it with water, but then also I would typically not clean it, but just use the newly reconstituted ink).

 

So, again, in my experience, IG ink is not as much troublesome as usually stated.

 

I.e. with your current routine maintenance I would say you should be more than OK (personally, I would likely consider it overkill, but...). Again, from my experience.

 

Disclaimer: I am by no means an überexpert, just an "aficionado" who is by most standards "largely unknowledgeable", so take my words for their worth (i.e. nil).

[Ius est vigilantibus]

Yeah, Im a bit obsessive about cleaning my pens. Just my tools in general. I have 30 year old pens that are still working perfectly well.

[peroride]

Thank you for creating the thread; I learned lots. I recently starting using the "safe" IG inks: Platinum Classic series, R&K Salix and Scabiosa with my better pens without issue. I love seeing the color change and relative permanance. But after this thread, I realize that for all the benefits, I'd be so sad if a dollars worth of ink ruined my precious pen so now I just use IG on pens that are easier to clean.

[Ius est vigilantibus]

Youre welcome! You should thank the kind people giving advice, though. 😉

[silverlifter]

I'd be so sad if a dollars worth of ink ruined my precious pen so now I just use IG on pens that are easier to clean.

 

If you are using a reputable brand (R&K, Diamine, ESSRI, KWZ, Platinum, or Akkerman) there is zero chance of you damaging your pen.

 

As an illustration: in the early 1990s I bought a bottle of Montblanc Blue Black and used around a third of it in my 146. At least a couple of times, I let the pen dry out completely. Instead of flushing it, I would just refill it and go about my business. When I went to change inks, did flush it and it did take quite a while for it to run clean.

 

It was only in the last couple of months that I learned that the bottle of blue black I was using (and subsequently put away only to discover earlier this year), was in fact an iron gall. No damage to the pen, and the inks still works great.

[peroride]

Thank you all for the first hand IG experiences

 

I will still save heart and headache from expensive and prolonged turnaround time of pen repair on the infinitesimal 0.001 % potential chance that a bad luck/batch will strike from IG interaction with precious pen material.

 

Were it to happen, this wonderful thread, however compelling would not secure manufacturer warranty satisfaction.

[silverlifter]

Thank you all for the first hand IG experiences

 

I will still save heart and headache from expensive and prolonged turnaround time of pen repair on the infinitesimal 0.001 % potential chance that a bad luck/batch will strike from IG interaction with precious pen material.

 

Were it to happen, this wonderful thread, however compelling would not secure manufacturer warranty satisfaction.

 

Note that the ink Ken used is not what I would classify as "as a reputable brand"; it is essentially a hobby project. Caveat emptor.

[peroride]

Good point and thank you for mentioning it. And similar report - no issues with the safer IG inks mentioned here :-)

[alexander_k]

I've often been warned of the dangers of IG inks but the R&K and KWZ ones I've been using never gave me trouble. Still, just like with any ink, there's always a possibility that a particular pen might not suit them and clog up. When this happens (not if), just switch to a different ink-pen combination. It doesn't take too long before you find a good match.

[tinta]

On occasion an IG ink can "go bad", as one large Akkerman bottle did for me after about four years of continuous use. I'm still trying to get the crud off the walls of this particular bottle. This big bottle is rather attractive, so I do want to keep it. Two small 60 ml.Akkerman # 10 bottles were used down to the very last drop, with no issues in the bottle or in my pens.

 

My Platinum IG inks have performed very well. With Cassis Black, a lovely colour, you can expect some nib creep. Creep happens with any ink that contains red or orange. It's not the fault of the iron-gall content but specific dyes in the ink.

 

That said, I would highly recommend using ferrogallic inks in most modern fountain pens, particularly those that have gold nibs.

[Ius est vigilantibus]

Thanks again, I guess Ill fill up my 146 with Salix.

Hals- und Beinbruch!

[Ius est vigilantibus]

So far, so good.

Used Herbin nettoyant pour stylo before filling it with Salix.

Its a bit dry, but it works well.

[tinta]

You will find most of the ferrogallic inks dry but most are manageable depending on the pen. Some folks will add certain additives to the inks to make them less dry.

I read something about this concerning Salix I believe, but cannot now remember what the additive was. For me, I like to keep my inks with their original formulations. I can make some modifications to the nib instead.