Montblanc 149

[meanwhile]

  Brian said:

(2) the earlier 149s are pretty good writers and consider yourself lucky if you have one of them. Should you ever have to send it in for service do ask to keep the same nib, feed, and section-barrel. Unfortunately, if the piston needs replacement I think the only option is to go with the heavier brass units v. the earlier plastic units which I love.

 

So they switched back to a design with *more* brass in it at some time? This does get complicated!

 

  Quote

Also, for some reason MB keeps changing the feed units over time. Why???? IMHO the 2 piece as well as the solid single rib units from the 70s and 80s are excellent and should not have been changed;

 

Were the 70s feeds ebonite? Perhaps if they decided to go to plastic for ease of manufacturing they would then have to start tweaking the feed until it worked exactly as they wanted?

 

[TheNobleSavage]

I have 2 MB 149 FP from the Late 1970's to Early 1980's era. Both have 14kt gold 2 tone nibs and both have ebonite feeds. They are fantastic writers too. I also have a an older 146 from around the same time frame and it too has an ebonite feed. OTOH, my Pops has a later version, I believe late 1980's early 1990's MB 149 with a plastic feed and 18kt gold nib. His writes nice but not as nice as mine, to be quite honest.

 

I find that the 14kt gold nibs from the older 149's seem to have more spring to them than the later 18kt versions of the pen. I find that the later pens use a more stiff nib that I am not really all that crazy about. I have a MB Alexandre Dumas Writers Edition pen w/18kt gold nib that I bought at the LA Pen show. It is a wonderful writer but the feed is plastic and the nib is somewhat rigid. I am seriously considering swapping nibs with my older 149 with an ebonite feed and 14kt gold broad cursive italic nib. I really love my writers edition pen and is one of my daily writers but the nib is a bit less than perfect because it is a bit on the rigid side. It would be so much more enjoyable with the other nib.

 

TNS

[Brian]

  The Noble Savage said:

I have 2 MB 149 FP from the Late 1970's to Early 1980's era. Both have 14kt gold 2 tone nibs and both have ebonite feeds. They are fantastic writers too. I also have a an older 146 from around the same time frame and it too has an ebonite feed. OTOH, my Pops has a later version, I believe late 1980's early 1990's MB 149 with a plastic feed and 18kt gold nib. His writes nice but not as nice as mine, to be quite honest.

 

I find that the 14kt gold nibs from the older 149's seem to have more spring to them than the later 18kt versions of the pen. I find that the later pens use a more stiff nib that I am not really all that crazy about. I have a MB Alexandre Dumas Writers Edition pen w/18kt gold nib that I bought at the LA Pen show. It is a wonderful writer but the feed is plastic and the nib is somewhat rigid. I am seriously considering swapping nibs with my older 149 with an ebonite feed and 14kt gold broad cursive italic nib. I really love my writers edition pen and is one of my daily writers but the nib is a bit less than perfect because it is a bit on the rigid side. It would be so much more enjoyable with the other nib.

 

TNS

 

Yes, I am a big fan of the 14k nibs, ebonite feeds, and smooth plastic sections that do not have the small bit of textured plastic on the end. I have an early 90s model too and while it is good, the older models are better.

 

I am a fan too of the A. Dumas and have been through three like this: #1 - wrong signature, medium nib, was stolen after months of work on it by the MB service center. Just before it was stolen it was begining to write well; #2 - correct signature, broad nib, was perfect out of the box. Good flow, great profile on the nib making for wonderfully thin (for a broad) cross strokes transitioning to a nice big fat downstoke; #3 - i think i bought this to overcompensate. It is the wrong signature and it is a medium. And no, I haven't inked it yet.

 

About putting an older 149 nib on the Dumas. I LIKE IT. That is a great idea that I am sure some will find pure heresy. Do post some pics and handwriting samples if you ever get to it.

 

Good luck and best wishes

[meanwhile]

  The Noble Savage said:

I have 2 MB 149 FP from the Late 1970's to Early 1980's era. Both have 14kt gold 2 tone nibs and both have ebonite feeds. They are fantastic writers too. I also have a an older 146 from around the same time frame and it too has an ebonite feed. OTOH, my Pops has a later version, I believe late 1980's early 1990's MB 149 with a plastic feed and 18kt gold nib.

 

If MB switched from an ebonite feed to a plastic one, that can explain a lot of the following fiddling around with feed changes that Brian noted. Richard Binder has a superb article on this issue on his site. I don't think I can link directly, but go to www.richardspens.com and search on "feeds":

 

  Quote

Plastic, although it is an ideal material for economical high-speed manufacture of complex parts in large quantity, is not so felicitous as a material for feeds. It is nonporous, and because it is injection molded, it frequently has a very smooth, polished surface. Feed makers employed various ways to combat these deficiencies, such as roughening the surfaces of the molding dies. Not all of these techniques succeeded in producing reliable feeds...

 

Some modern feeds, especially those in pens of higher quality, are made of hard rubber, while others are made of plastic. Many plastic feeds today are coated with a substance that gives them the desired slightly rough, porous surface. In most cases, the result is a good feed; but some designers, in an apparent attempt to make their feeds aesthetically pleasing, have sacrificed function; they have produced designs that are notoriously balky and unreliable due to inadequate airflow handling. In some cases, but not in all, these feeds can be modified to work reasonably well.

 

 

[kazoolaw]

You can also find a very well done two part article on the evolution of the 149 by Barry Gabay in PenWorld magazine. He meticulously track the changes in the piston mechanisms, the trim rings, the nibs AND the feeds.

gary

[slimnib]

Changed a life time warranty to a two year warranty, just after the current owner acquired Montblanc. Why? Did the same thing with Montegrappa.

 

 

Harv

[meanwhile]

  georges zaslavsky said:

I have talked about Mr MORA (an owner of the oldest paris penshop) with the 823 and there are several customers he knew who had leaking problems due to the plunger filling systems.

 

Strange. This is a guy in France who owns a store that doesn't sell 823 as far as I can tell, in a country where the pen isn't even sold, and yet he has customers who have had this problem and come in and tell him about? While I can't find one report on FPN - or any other forum - about this? And you don't think that a guy who is selling pens that cost several times the price of an 823 but which reviewers regularly say aren't as good as the 823 mightn't be, oh, a little biased - assuming he did say this? This is about as poor as evidence can get - it's third hand, relayed by two potentially biased sources, and very hard to reconcile with other sources. (Do 823s only break down for French people? Do 823 owners swear an oath of secrecy, even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

 

And how are we supposed to reconcile this claimed detailed knowledge of yours - which you had supposedly when you made the now somewhat notorious post - when you mis-identified a much smaller, patterned, blue, non-translucent cc fill as being an 823 - a pen that rubs in the fact that it is a vac fill by being translucent? And wasn't supposed to be at Mora's store that you were shown this "823"?

 

Really - nothing here makes sense!

 

  Quote

There are also problems with Montblancs but you seem to overexagerate Montblanc problems.

 

No, I counted them.

 

  Quote

please don't tell me that every japanese pen produced has no flaw because it is not true.

 

No, but what is true is that counting reports of faults with, say, Pilot VP's, and adjusting for the number owned, suggests that they are literally on the order of 1% as likely as faults with MBs.

Edited July 20, 2007 by meanwhile

[Lloyd]

  meanwhile said:

even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

Quite an exaggeration. Heck, it's not even one of the most talked about pens at FPN.

  Quote

No, I counted them.

Did you really count the 10% of all the MB149s that have been manufactured to verify Mr. Dubiel's allegations?

[meanwhile]

  Lloyd said:

  meanwhile said:

even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

Quite an exaggeration. Heck, it's not even one of the most talked about pens at FPN.

 

"Talked about" is a colloquial phrase. I haven't counted posts. The 823 is certainly becoming a cult pen and one that seems to impress users most.

 

  Quote

  Quote

No, I counted them.

Did you really count the 10% of all the MB149s that have been manufactured to verify Mr. Dubiel's allegations?

 

Lloyd -

 

We both know exactly what I counted because I detailed what I counted in the review and it has been discussed several times since - ie I counted online reports of MB faults. If you disagree, fine!

 

Dubiel's findings I clearly presented as Dubiel's findings. You know this because you questioned whether he could have looked at a significant number of pens without being thrown out of stores - I think this was by private mail? I then referred you to newsgroup posts showing that he was on very friendly terms with people who ran stores selling MB, so had easy access, and you said "Oh, yeah."

 

So having spent quite a bit a time discussing this with you and clarifying matters (even though I'm am *deeply* bored with the subject) I'm not sure why you should want to resort to making this sort of post. You know exactly what Dubiel did, you know exactly what and how I counted, and you could question each. Instead you've chosen to deliberately confuse the two so you can - well, I really don't know! I'm sure it seemed a brilliant rhetorical manouvre at the time, although to me it seems utterly pointless.

 

Oh, well - each to their own!

 

 

[kazoolaw]

Dear Meanwhile-

At the risk of offending you by asking, of the identified MB complaints you counted (could you repeat the number again for me please?), could you tell us how many were specifically for the MB 149?

And, knowing that this info would be proprietary, how many MB 149s would you estimate have been produced over the model run?

Thanks,

gary

[georges zaslavsky]

  meanwhile said:

1)Strange. This is a guy in France who owns a store that doesn't sell 823 as far as I can tell, in a country where the pen isn't even sold, and yet he has customers who have had this problem and come in and tell him about? While I can't find one report on FPN - or any other forum - about this? And you don't think that a guy who is selling pens that cost several times the price of an 823 but which reviewers regularly say aren't as good as the 823 mightn't be, oh, a little biased - assuming he did say this? This is about as poor as evidence can get - it's third hand, relayed by two potentially biased sources, and very hard to reconcile with other sources. (Do 823s only break down for French people? Do 823 owners swear an oath of secrecy, even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

 

2)And how are we supposed to reconcile this claimed detailed knowledge of yours - which you had supposedly when you made the now somewhat notorious post - when you mis-identified a much smaller, patterned, blue, non-translucent cc fill as being an 823 - a pen that rubs in the fact that it is a vac fill by being translucent? And wasn't supposed to be at Mora's store that you were shown this "823"?

 

3)Really - nothing here makes sense!

 

  Quote

There are also problems with Montblancs but you seem to overexagerate Montblanc problems.

 

4)No, I counted them.

 

  Quote

please don't tell me that every japanese pen produced has no flaw because it is not true.

 

5)No, but what is true is that counting reports of faults with, say, Pilot VP's, and adjusting for the number owned, suggests that they are literally on the order of 1% as likely as faults with MBs.

1)You should seriously quit making assumptions on someone who is way longer than you in the business. He is an official pilot and namiki distributor since the 50's. He has sold 823s two years ago.

And while we are at it perhaps the stylophile review of the 823 was so realistic and unbiased? Lies.

Pull out very strongly the plunger fill and there are possibilities your 823 will have probs. Not always what is cheaper is better. A piston filling system is far more secure and reliable than a plunger filler.

The 823 most talked on line? On fpn, yes but not everywhere else.

 

2)And your claims about knowing how much MBs are faulty are void because you are not a member of MB quality control staff. Just because there were some reported incidents on line that doesn't mean all MBs or many MBs are bad. At the end of the assembly line each product is controlled and tested to avoid these flaws. There are no verifiable sources to back up these numbers. You think that you are more knowledgeable than other people but you are not. You are somewhat arrogant.

 

3)Your statistics about how many MB fail are misleading.

 

5)Where did you get that percentage from? From some trusted source or did you just invent it yourself? With all respect I have for you, trying to pass japanese pens for flawless pens is not true and not realistic. Perhaps you were so disappointed with MB that you decided to give them a very bad image.

[Lloyd]

Hi George,

I'm trying to remain centrist on this subject. I have a question for you: Have you purchased any brand new MB's from a MB boutique? My assumption is that most of the MBs you have purchased went through a secondary (and probably superior) set of inspections and tweeking at Mr. Mora's or elsewhere. A well tuned MB that has gone through an independent technician's inspection and adjustment is going to be better than the general inventory at a boutique that only went through MB's inspections. If you've had several MB's from general inventory, then you might have a sense of their initial quality. On the other hand, if all of your MBs went through Mr. Mora's technicians' hands first, you might not know MBs true quality level.

[LDF]

Here's my experience: I have bought 8 Meisterstucks over the past 20 years.

6 came from store based, non-MB boutique retailers and 2 were from Ebay.

All were new except one Ebay pen.

All worked perfectly out of the box except for the used Ebay pen, which required restoration at MB for a leak and misaligned nib.

The new Ebay pen worked fine, but I had MB exchange the medium nib for a fine.

They are all inked and used daily, and none have developed problems yet.

None of the sellers have pen adjustment skills as far as I know.

It's a small sample, but based on this experience ( and some disappointing experiences with other brands),

I am an enthusiastic fan of the Meisterstuck series (149, 146, Writers) and would buy another.

 

 

 

[georges zaslavsky]

Hi Lloyd

 

No, I haven't purchased any new pens in MB Boutiques but I had my first 149 repaired through a MB Boutique. My first 149 that I bought was purchased initial in a pawn shop for 100 € and it had a broken piston. For repairing it, I went to the Montblanc flagship store of Paris and I paid 50€ for having it repaired. The repair was done by MB France in less than 3 weeks, MB France even gave me a warranty of one year for the repair and did something which wasn't included which was to polish the pen. The result of the repair was excellent. It was one of my best writers and it had a 18kt 750 semi flex fine nib. Sadly that 149 was stolen from me at work 4 months ago.

After that with some extra money, I decided to buy two 149s. I went through Mora for three reasons: it is an official MB retailer, the repairs can be done immediately and you can have good prices on pre owned models. For the note, the pre owned models are overhauled and inspected before sale. I even bought a 146 from the 80's two weeks ago at Mora.

To sum up, MB customer service is very good and the price of the repair was reasonable. Mora's shop is good for buying pre owned and vintage 149 for a reasonable price.

I will not hesitate to go back to the MB Boutique for a repair or buy some pen accessories if needed because the customer service is excellent.

Hope this answers your question.

 

very best regards

 

georges

[Ronin]

  georges zaslavsky said:

  meanwhile said:

1)Strange. This is a guy in France who owns a store that doesn't sell 823 as far as I can tell, in a country where the pen isn't even sold, and yet he has customers who have had this problem and come in and tell him about? While I can't find one report on FPN - or any other forum - about this? And you don't think that a guy who is selling pens that cost several times the price of an 823 but which reviewers regularly say aren't as good as the 823 mightn't be, oh, a little biased - assuming he did say this? This is about as poor as evidence can get - it's third hand, relayed by two potentially biased sources, and very hard to reconcile with other sources. (Do 823s only break down for French people? Do 823 owners swear an oath of secrecy, even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

 

2)And how are we supposed to reconcile this claimed detailed knowledge of yours - which you had supposedly when you made the now somewhat notorious post - when you mis-identified a much smaller, patterned, blue, non-translucent cc fill as being an 823 - a pen that rubs in the fact that it is a vac fill by being translucent? And wasn't supposed to be at Mora's store that you were shown this "823"?

 

3)Really - nothing here makes sense!

 

  Quote

There are also problems with Montblancs but you seem to overexagerate Montblanc problems.

 

4)No, I counted them.

 

  Quote

please don't tell me that every japanese pen produced has no flaw because it is not true.

 

5)No, but what is true is that counting reports of faults with, say, Pilot VP's, and adjusting for the number owned, suggests that they are literally on the order of 1% as likely as faults with MBs.

1)You should seriously quit making assumptions on someone who is way longer than you in the business. He is an official pilot and namiki distributor since the 50's. He has sold 823s two years ago.

And while we are at it perhaps the stylophile review of the 823 was so realistic and unbiased? Lies.

Pull out very strongly the plunger fill and there are possibilities your 823 will have probs. Not always what is cheaper is better. A piston filling system is far more secure and reliable than a plunger filler.

The 823 most talked on line? On fpn, yes but not everywhere else.

 

2)And your claims about knowing how much MBs are faulty are void because you are not a member of MB quality control staff. Just because there were some reported incidents on line that doesn't mean all MBs or many MBs are bad. At the end of the assembly line each product is controlled and tested to avoid these flaws. There are no verifiable sources to back up these numbers. You think that you are more knowledgeable than other people but you are not. You are somewhat arrogant.

 

3)Your statistics about how many MB fail are misleading.

 

5)Where did you get that percentage from? From some trusted source or did you just invent it yourself? With all respect I have for you, trying to pass japanese pens for flawless pens is not true and not realistic. Perhaps you were so disappointed with MB that you decided to give them a very bad image.

 

[Ronin]

  georges zaslavsky said:

  meanwhile said:

1)Strange. This is a guy in France who owns a store that doesn't sell 823 as far as I can tell, in a country where the pen isn't even sold, and yet he has customers who have had this problem and come in and tell him about? While I can't find one report on FPN - or any other forum - about this? And you don't think that a guy who is selling pens that cost several times the price of an 823 but which reviewers regularly say aren't as good as the 823 mightn't be, oh, a little biased - assuming he did say this? This is about as poor as evidence can get - it's third hand, relayed by two potentially biased sources, and very hard to reconcile with other sources. (Do 823s only break down for French people? Do 823 owners swear an oath of secrecy, even though the 823 is one of the most talked about pens online?)

 

2)And how are we supposed to reconcile this claimed detailed knowledge of yours - which you had supposedly when you made the now somewhat notorious post - when you mis-identified a much smaller, patterned, blue, non-translucent cc fill as being an 823 - a pen that rubs in the fact that it is a vac fill by being translucent? And wasn't supposed to be at Mora's store that you were shown this "823"?

 

3)Really - nothing here makes sense!

 

  Quote

There are also problems with Montblancs but you seem to overexagerate Montblanc problems.

 

4)No, I counted them.

 

  Quote

please don't tell me that every japanese pen produced has no flaw because it is not true.

 

5)No, but what is true is that counting reports of faults with, say, Pilot VP's, and adjusting for the number owned, suggests that they are literally on the order of 1% as likely as faults with MBs.

1)You should seriously quit making assumptions on someone who is way longer than you in the business. He is an official pilot and namiki distributor since the 50's. He has sold 823s two years ago.

And while we are at it perhaps the stylophile review of the 823 was so realistic and unbiased? Lies.

Pull out very strongly the plunger fill and there are possibilities your 823 will have probs. Not always what is cheaper is better. A piston filling system is far more secure and reliable than a plunger filler.

The 823 most talked on line? On fpn, yes but not everywhere else.

 

2)And your claims about knowing how much MBs are faulty are void because you are not a member of MB quality control staff. Just because there were some reported incidents on line that doesn't mean all MBs or many MBs are bad. At the end of the assembly line each product is controlled and tested to avoid these flaws. There are no verifiable sources to back up these numbers. You think that you are more knowledgeable than other people but you are not. You are somewhat arrogant.

 

3)Your statistics about how many MB fail are misleading.

 

5)Where did you get that percentage from? From some trusted source or did you just invent it yourself? With all respect I have for you, trying to pass japanese pens for flawless pens is not true and not realistic. Perhaps you were so disappointed with MB that you decided to give them a very bad image.

Georges, why is it then that in the pen shop I work in we get back far more Mont Blanc pens to be repaired than any other make? Or is it because Mont Blanc pens sold in France are better than the ones sold in the UK.Or perharps I don't know anything about them because I don't repair pens and therefore my opinion is worthless.

 

Ronin.

[georges zaslavsky]

  Ronin said:

Georges, why is it then that in the pen shop I work in we get back far more Mont Blanc pens to be repaired than any other make? Or is it because Mont Blanc pens sold in France are better than the ones sold in the UK.Or perharps I don't know anything about them because I don't repair pens and therefore my opinion is worthless.

Ronin.

 

Hi Ronin

 

I have also seen quite a number of MB being given for repair but I have also seen a bunch of Italian pens being given for repair as well. No,the MBs sold in France aren't better than those soldin the UK. All I can suspect is a lack of quality control or perhaps bad use from the customer's side. I have seen quite a lot of people who use their fps as if it was a bic then it is not astonishing that they have to repair them. It is not the matter of knowing the 149 or not.

The former 149s used to have better feeds (ebonite feeds) and better nibs which were smooth. Also MB switched to a new resin in late 80's which was said to be prone to fracture. I know people who never had a single problem with their post 1995 and post 2000 MB Meisterstücks.

A lack of quality control when inspecting the assembled product or a lack of care when using the product are responsible of these flaws. A constructive opinion is always good and interesting.

best regards

 

georges

Edited July 22, 2007 by georges zaslavsky

[MichaelD]

I have been monitoring this interesting conversation.

I have a question that maybe someone with more experience or who works in a pen shop may help answer.

Do you think we seem to here about Montblanc pens having to be returned for repairs because Montblanc pens sell a much higher percentage of the fountain pen market?

I ask because I have two friends who own Montblanc pens; if I were to ask if they have heard of Pelikan or Sailor or Pilot fountain pens, I don't think that they would know much, if anything, about these brands.

Before this forum I did not know any of these companies made fountain pens, even though I knew of Montblanc.

And if I were to go to a pen store, I would think many salepersons would push a higher priced good, e g Montblanc, than a lower priced one.

Perhaps people buy more Montblanc pens because of brand recognition and reputation? If more Montblanc pens are sold, then we would hear more of their quality control problems?

 

I'm curious whether I might be too greatly influenced from attending business school?

 

Michael

 

 

[LDF]

  MichaelD said:

Do you think we seem to here about Montblanc pens having to be returned for repairs because Montblanc pens sell a much higher percentage of the fountain pen market?

I ask because I have two friends who own Montblanc pens; if I were to ask if they have heard of Pelikan or Sailor or Pilot fountain pens, I don't think that they would know much, if anything, about these brands.

Before this forum I did not know any of these companies made fountain pens, even though I knew of Montblanc.

 

Michael

 

I think you have a valid point.

I also know MB users who own one fountain pen, a MB, and don't know any other brand.

And for those who buy a MB or are given a MB as a gift based on its brand visibility, and don't know much about fountain pens, will have a much higher likelihood of damaging

the pen than someone who is a fountain pen enthusiast.

[Ronin]

  georges zaslavsky said:

  Ronin said:

Georges, why is it then that in the pen shop I work in we get back far more Mont Blanc pens to be repaired than any other make? Or is it because Mont Blanc pens sold in France are better than the ones sold in the UK.Or perharps I don't know anything about them because I don't repair pens and therefore my opinion is worthless.

Ronin.

 

Hi Ronin

 

I have also seen quite a number of MB being given for repair but I have also seen a bunch of Italian pens being given for repair as well. No,the MBs sold in France aren't better than those soldin the UK. All I can suspect is a lack of quality control or perhaps bad use from the customer's side. I have seen quite a lot of people who use their fps as if it was a bic then it is not astonishing that they have to repair them. It is not the matter of knowing the 149 or not.

The former 149s used to have better feeds (ebonite feeds) and better nibs which were smooth. Also MB switched to a new resin in late 80's which was said to be prone to fracture. I know people who never had a single problem with their post 1995 and post 2000 MB Meisterstücks.

A lack of quality control when inspecting the assembled product or a lack of care when using the product are responsible of these flaws. A constructive opinion is always good and interesting.

best regards

 

georges

 

That's fine,but my question remains why is it we don't receive,for example, many Waterman,Caran D'ache or Pelikan pens for repair? We do sell Montergrappa pens but so far none back for repair. Maybe the people who buy MB are very clumsy with them!

 

Ronin.