Montblanc 149

[TheNobleSavage]

  meanwhile said:

  Lloyd said:

  Quote

...Most MB owners have bought a Status Stick and are deeply invested in it. A Pel is just a pen.

 

...By the way, most of the Pelikan line-up cost more than $100; hardly the price of "just a pen" to most of us.

 

An M800 might cost $300, but it is still bought as a pen An expensive pen is still a just a pen - a pen with a lot to prove. M800 = expensive pen. 149 = status stick. And yes, I know some people buy 149s as pens. But, honestly, I don't think many do.

 

 

Please explain!!! It is a status stick for YOU!!! That is your opinion!!! Just because it is your opinion, it does not make it fact!!! The ocean is wet, or Bubba has hair on his back, that is a FACT!!!

 

TNS

[HDoug]

  LDF said:

That is a STATUS STICK! And what's with that metal trim near the nib? What's its function besides a corrosion magnet? It's a purely decorative touch to sparkle as pocket jewelry.

 

Okay, you've crossed the line on this one. I love section trim rings! My Pels have them, and so does my Namiki Falcon (although in kind of a weird position -- not quite at the end of the section). Section rings tell you that you've dipped your pen deep enough into the bottle, and like the dipstick in your engine, they also tell you when to get more ink.

 

I only have one MB fountain pen, but I wish I had more. I'm more attracted to the 146 than the 149, though.

 

Doug

 

P.S. IMHO, the continuing attacks on MBs are becoming empty provocation...

Edited August 11, 2007 by HDoug

[OboeJuan]

If anyone cares, this is my last straw. I am tired of the trying to discuss my Montblancs (and Caran d'Aches ansd Sheaffers and Pilots)and I don't want to spend any more of my energy trying to make myself feel better about owning a MB. I was absolutlely floored when I first got here and found out that I was a faker and a status seeker, trying to be flashy with no knowledge of fountain pens or taste! News to me. FPN does so many things right, but this state sanctioned (I'm sorry Tytvyllus, I know you are going through a trying time at home but you condone and encourage and participate in it) hatred and one-upmanship that is seen as a sport around here. And you are a bit of a bully.

 

It isn't much fun for some people (if they happen to like Montblancs, it is horrible).

 

Ciao!

Edited August 11, 2007 by OboeJuan

[Sakura]

Uh-oh...perhaps could circumstances where not everyone feels welcome be avoided? I hate seeing someone pushed past their limits, it's upsetting.

[meanwhile]

  Sakura said:

I was blindsided by the MB hate after joining as well, now I'm made to feel like I must tread carefully. Isn't that called bullying?

:hmm1:

 

No, it's called being over-sensitive. And that is being polite.

 

People shouldn't have to change their opinion of a pen so that you can feel good about yourself. They shouldn't even have to change their opinion of the average person who buys an MB for that reason. MB and the people who sell them are frank that their usual customers buy for "lifestyle" and prestige reasons, it would be foolish to be coy here, and there's no reason for you to feel that the description of an average MB buyer has to apply to you, personally.

 

The bottom line is that if someone believes that a pen is a $600 piece of plastic mediocrity then they should be able to say so, they are going to say so, and they will do so regardless of whether you bought that pen or not. It is up to you to deal with how it makes you feel, without blaming other people, or trying to make them feel bad because they have stated an opinion you don't like.

Edited August 11, 2007 by meanwhile

[meanwhile]

  OboeJuan said:

If anyone cares, this is my last straw. I am tired of the trying to discuss my Montblancs (and Caran d'Aches ansd Sheaffers and Pilots)and I don't want to spend any more of my energy trying to make myself feel better about owning a MB. I was absolutlely floored when I first got here and found out that I was a faker and a status seeker, trying to be flashy with no knowledge of fountain pens or taste! News to me. FPN does so many things right, but this state sanctioned (I'm sorry Tytvyllus, I know you are going through a trying time at home but you condone and encourage and participate in it) hatred and one-upmanship that is seen as a sport around here. And you are a bit of a bully.

 

It isn't much fun for some people (if they happen to like Montblancs, it is horrible).

 

Ciao!

 

Okkk...

 

I want you to imagine for a moment that a Mont Blanc really is a hugely over-priced, mediocre, brittle piece of semi-junk, being brilliantly and cynically marketed. So that people spend very serious money - £300 for a 149 in the UK - to buy a present for a loved one to mark a special occasion, thinking that they are buying something extraordinary, that will last a lifetime, and are actually cheated when they are sold a pen that they realize isn't as good as one they could have got for a tenth of the price. Can you imagine how that can make both the giver and receiver feel? How it forever tarnishes that special occasion and that gesture of love and respect? Because that is exactly what has happened to some people on this forum. Are you saying that people shouldn't be provided with information that might help them avoid such experiences, because it will make you feel bad?

 

You are not the only person in the world whose feelings are important; the world does not revolve around you; and this is a place for the discussing fountain pens and reviewing them fairly, not praising them unconditionally and providing you with validation.

 

I really am sorry if you feel bad. As I've said, over and over again, because MB sell mediocre pens at inflated prices using typical prestige marketing tactics does not say anything bad about individuals who buy them. But at the end of the day... it should be just a pen. As I've said, if Parker 51 users heard their baby dissed this way, they'd just laugh.

 

 

 

 

[meanwhile]

  HDoug said:

  LDF said:

That is a STATUS STICK! And what's with that metal trim near the nib? What's its function besides a corrosion magnet? It's a purely decorative touch to sparkle as pocket jewelry.

 

Okay, you've crossed the line on this one. I love section trim rings! My Pels have them, and so does my Namiki Falcon (although in kind of a weird position -- not quite at the end of the section). Section rings tell you that you've dipped your pen deep enough into the bottle, and like the dipstick in your engine, they also tell you when to get more ink.

 

I have a suspicion that MB section rings interact badly with acidic MB iron gall ink. I wish they'd do a deal with Noodlers. In fact, I can't imagine why they haven't.

 

  Quote

I only have one MB fountain pen, but I wish I had more. I'm more attracted to the 146 than the 149, though.

 

Of the moderns, I'd much prefer a 146.

 

  Quote

P.S. IMHO, the continuing attacks on MBs are becoming empty provocation...

 

Believe me, I'm bored with this and by the personal attacks, loopy reasoning (my favourite example being the gentleman who tried to prove that MBs don't break easily by arguing, in defiance of the entire nuclear engineering industry, that the Chernobyl reactor didn't possess any design flaws - not in this thread, regrettably) and attempts to make me feel guilty. So let me summarize:

 

Mini Review:

The 149 is made of very ordinary plastic with some glass fibres to make it shiny; there's a lot of evidence this plastic breaks easily; MB quality control is questionable and there seem to be many more rogue MBs than Pels, Sailors, or Pilots; the much touted "handmade" component of their nib manufacturing seems restricted to some often poorly performed nib smoothing that should only take a few minutes per pen; service is lousy compared to Chartpak (but still better than for some Italian brands); the pens are over-priced and sold with "lifestyle" marketing. I really, honestly can't see I'd pay six times the cost of a Lamy 2000 for a 149. In fact, if both pens were the same price I would say the 2K was the better deal.

 

No one has to agree with these conclusions, but I do think that I have made a strong objective case for their being true in the main review. The purpose of which is not to make people who have bought 149s or other MBs feel bad, but to give the fairest, most accurate information that I can to people thinking of buying them.

[meanwhile]

  The Noble Savage said:

  meanwhile said:

  dfatouros said:

Secondly something that rather bugs me about the reviews in general, is the in-built bias of any person writing the review. If you have paid several hundred of your choice of hard earned currency chances are that you are going to like it.

 

Several more things have to be added to this:

 

- The more someone pays, the more they will be convinced that they got an item with special qualities - regardless how it performs

 

- The more an object is seen as being prestigious, the more it will be seen as performing well in other ways - especially among people who buy objects as status symbols

 

- The people most likely to protest loudly are those who have invested substantially in a belief, but doubt its truth. Hence Parker 51 owners are likely to be merely amused if you criticize the pen. I think the Pelikan Go might be the best pen ever made, but I'm damned if I can imagine getting excited about the issue.

 

All these things are basic marketing psychology and used all the time. I recommend Cialdini's books for an insight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini

 

 

 

 

That is just your opinion!!!

 

No, it's standard marketing psychology. Go to Amazon or some marketing websites - you will find that the entire marketing industry agrees with me. You don't to agree with the entire marketing industry, of course, but this is not "just my opinion". It is how MB marketeers, like everyone else, will approach the task of selling their wares to you.

 

  Quote

Secondly I dont trust everything on Wikipedia, information there is not verified as 100% FACT!!!

 

Yes, but I think you will find that Cialdini exists, is a respected expert on marketing psychology, and has written the books that page cites. Which is all that page claims. While skepticism is in general admirable, it is no substitute for careful reading, reasoning and checking of facts.

 

 

[kazoolaw]

 

 

"Believe me, I'm bored with this and by the personal attacks...

 

 

No one has to agree with these conclusions, but I do think that I have made a strong objective case for their being true in the main review.

 

Repeat of post 90:

 

Dear Meanwhile-

At the risk of offending you by asking, of the identified MB complaints you counted (could you repeat the number again for me please?), could you tell us how many were specifically for the MB 149?

And, knowing that this info would be proprietary, how many MB 149s would you estimate have been produced over the model run?

Thanks,

gary "

 

If there was an objective response I didn't see it.

 

After 140+ posts go back and re-read your posts and see how many of them contain emotive, not objective, language and you may begin to understand why you provoked emotional responses.

 

gary

[Titivillus]

  OboeJuan said:

FPN does so many things right, but this state sanctioned (I'm sorry Tytvyllus, I know you are going through a trying time at home but you condone and encourage and participate in it) hatred and one-upmanship that is seen as a sport around here. And you are a bit of a bully.

 

I am deeply hurt by your comments, more than you can imagine I suspect or you would not have posted them and it feels like a nice kick in the teeth but that is my personal opinion.

 

Once and for all this site and especially this forum is public. Everything that is written here is done by the members, there is no censorship except when a breaks the FPN guidelines. A post once made can be replied to by anyone here believing that you have control of a thread because you made the first or a forum because you post there is wrong.

 

So people are allowed and welcome to post their opinions. Just because a person has a different opinion from you does not mean they are attacking you. It just means they have a different opinion. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion and I am surprised by the number of people who want this forum to only have positive comments on MB.

 

For every person who posts a 'hate' of MB there are also people posting loves for the pen. Why should there be a one sided discussion?

 

And I as moderator will moderate the forum but I will not censor posts just because they go against your opinion of the pen. If they get personal they will be dealt with nothing more.

 

I find it difficult that I am called to task for taking preemptive action and then called to task for not doing what you want.

 

Remember that I had to post a thread stating that there is no ulterior factions making this a MB only friendly forum and now you are saying that it is too against MB.

 

Different people have different opinions and there is no way to stop that unless I sit in front of the computer 24/7 and moderate each and every post. That is not something I am willing to do and I can bet that you would not want to take that task on as well.

 

This is a forum for discussion if you feel that a post goes over the line PLEASE USE THE REPORT BUTTON IN THE LOWER LEFT CORNER. Rather than a public complaint send an email to the administrators so that they can deal with the post.

 

Your name calling is uncalled for and I am troubled that you felt a personal attack on me was warranted.

But by now I am use to it since it seems that I am the FPN punching bag it's ok to personally attack me in fact it seems like it's recommended. Go ahead do you want to comment on my weight or height maybe my sexual preference, how about eye color or skin color. I am sure that there's room for all of the negative comments about me, maybe I should create another thread and pull them all together: a best of hating Tytyvyllus- what can you do to tear a person down. Maybe I should put out a prize for the most hurt that a person can do to me maybe another moleskine just like the others that I have freely donated to this site with nothing expected in return but more pain. Yes look for that thread in chatter. Yep it's all right to beat me up go ahead take another swipe I am sure you or someone else will dissect this post and put up pithy replies. Yep everything I say is wrong and everyone is welcome to point that out to me. Hey I have a little bit of a positive self image left why not punt that over the goal posts as well.

 

 

 

K

Edited August 11, 2007 by Tytyvyllus

[meanwhile]

  gary said:

Dear Meanwhile-

At the risk of offending you by asking, of the identified MB complaints you counted (could you repeat the number again for me please?), could you tell us how many were specifically for the MB 149?

 

No, I couldn't without doing a lot of extra work. I deliberately compared Pelikan to MB - a brand to brand comparison gave a larger sample size. This should actually have been heavily to MB's advantage. Many of the Pel's would have been cheap M200's. Which are still relatively complex piston fillers with more to go wrong. If MB can't make a reliable CC filler pen for $300, while Pel can make a reliable piston filler for $60 - with an interchangbeable nib! - then MB should be utterly ashamed.

 

  Quote

And, knowing that this info would be proprietary, how many MB 149s would you estimate have been produced over the model run?

 

I deny that there IS a single 149 model. The modern plastic bodied, plastic feed pen, simple filler pen has nothing important in common with a flex nib, celluloid bodied, ebonite feed, two stage all brass piston pen from say 1960.

 

If you're implying that the 149 generates a lot of problem reports because there are a lot of pens around - which I suspect you are - then please say so, and I'll refer to you to the correct part of the review to read to understand your logical error. Even though I am bored.

 

  Quote

If there was an objective response I didn't see it.

 

Please forgive me because I don't feel obliged to serve your every request instantly!

 

Again: If you're implying that the 149 generates a lot of problem reports because there are a lot of pens around - which I suspect you are - then please say so, and I'll refer to you to the correct part of the review to read to understand your logical error. As you make such a point of it, even though I am very, very bored.

 

If on the other hand you're asking out of idle curiosity, please do your own research.

 

 

  Quote

After 140+ posts go back and re-read your posts and see how many of them contain emotive, not objective, language

 

There's nothing wrong with being emotive and saying "I love this pen" or "I'm disgusted at the cynical marketing tactics this company uses". There is something wrong with saying "WHAT YOU'VE SAID ABOUT MY PEN MAKES ME FEEL BAD - YOU'RE A BAD MAN! STOP SAYING THINGS I DON'T LIKE!!!". Emotive, fine. Manipulative, bad.

Edited August 11, 2007 by meanwhile

[Lloyd]

Out of curiousity, why doesn't anyone get into a "lifestyle" discussion about Levenger's or Cross(THE status pen when I was a kid). Both of these alleged pen purveyours run boutiques that barely feature fountain pens.

 

I agree that MB is the most popular status stick outside the FP-user world. However, within the FP crowd, I think Makii, Perchon, Krone, etc. are often more statusy.

[TheNobleSavage]

Ok, Common sense has kicked in!!! Time to wrap up this discussion. Nothing has been solved nor has feelings changed. When cursing and very personal attacks take place here, then it is time to put the hammer down!!! This is a family forum and is open to all!!! I might have to remind everyone of the FPN rules due to the actions of 1 or 2. I am more lenient on heated discussion, as long as the discussions stay somewhat focused. When heated discussions resort to foul language and VERY PERSONAL attacks, that is when the argument is LOST!!!

 

Please remember that your discussions are read by all people, including people of all ages.

 

With that said it is time to start winding down the discussion. I want to thank those who managed to battle through the punches on either side without really losing thier cool!!!

 

I am not planning on locking or closing the thread unless it becomes out of hand!!!

 

Thanks

 

TNS

[meanwhile]

  Lloyd said:

Out of curiousity, why doesn't anyone get into a "lifestyle" discussion about Levenger's or Cross(THE status pen when I was a kid). Both of these alleged pen purveyours run boutiques that barely feature fountain pens.

 

In my case, because they're brands I'm barely aware of. I doubt you can buy Levenger in the UK. I also don't have a problem with people selling stuff besides fp's - at all. Otoh, selling a pen that breaks or is hugely overpriced irritates me. Overall, I would say that only MB has the magic triple meat appeal of:

 

- Snobbery based marketing

 

- "Precious resin" that's actually brittle black plastic

 

- Exploding pens

 

  Quote

I agree that MB is the most popular status stick outside the FP-user world. However, within the FP crowd, I think Makii, Perchon, Krone, etc. are often more statusy.

 

Makii? You "makei" as in painted pens? If people buy art, which is what makei is, good for them. As far as I can tell they're doing it because they like pretty things, and makeii does involve an incredible amount of skilled work - it definitely isn't equivalent to buying the equivalent of a Pelikan Go at 10 times the price because it has a certain brand name on it.

 

And I thought Percheron and Krone were the butt of many, many jokes. I've made some.

Edited August 11, 2007 by meanwhile

[Lloyd]

Well, what pens do you see as the status sticks of the FP world? Obviously, MB isn't one as it brings forth more derision than adoration among FP users.

 

On the other hand, if MB didn't want to be seen as status sticks, why did this German company name itself after a French/Italian/Swiss locale?

[Ghost Plane]

I haven't had the chance to try an MB, so I've followed this thread with great curiousity. I must say, the lower end Krones have to be some of the best kept secrets out there. I've had good luck with the nibs and the 2 I sent in for warranty work came back fixed, which is all I ask. I think their colors are gorgeous, if occasionally unusual in combination.

[omasfan]

Although I am not an MB fan and I do not own one, I read this thread with interest. However, I am getting bored and annoyed by how the MB and the anti-MB factions are fighting each other. Especially since this is only a hobby, I guess, some of you take things very seriously. I wouldn't be fighting tooth or nail for or against a pen in the public.

 

Those who like MBs shall keep liking them, and those who don't shan't do so. Be nice to each other!!!

[meanwhile]

  Ghost Plane said:

I haven't had the chance to try an MB, so I've followed this thread with great curiousity. I must say, the lower end Krones have to be some of the best kept secrets out there. I've had good luck with the nibs and the 2 I sent in for warranty work came back fixed, which is all I ask. I think their colors are gorgeous, if occasionally unusual in combination.

 

Krone are a weird brand. The lower end pens - which don't seem to be available in the UK - have a really good reputation among the people who use them, but the company is known only for its bizarre historical pens. Cue jokes about the Turin Shroud pen, how Lincoln pens it would take to clone Old Abe, etc.