Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[AL01]

Well, according to the head engineer of MINI, the 4th generation Cooper will be smaller than the current model.

 

I am somewhat of a fan of the new Minis, and I believe they are better than the new Beatles.

[wspohn]

 

 

I am somewhat of a fan of the new Minis, and I believe they are better than the new Beatles.

 

The Beatles have come back? But there are only two of them still alive!

 

Oh - you meant the VW Beetle

[AL01]

AHHH!

 

You caught me red-handed!!!

 

 

Has anybody checked out Sir McCartney's new children's book?

 

(I remember there being an interview of him on the BBC a year ago. Maybe more.)

[TheDutchGuy]

Parker is issuing a new model. They're calling it P51. Perhaps they should've called it P52. It might be a very good pen. Or not. We'll see. I'm looking forward to trying one.

[tonybelding]

Today I was just looking at my most stalwart, most tried-and-true fountain pens. . .

 

http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/pens/stalwarts_01.jpg

 

And I found myself thinking, how does it make any sense that the Pilot Vanishing Point and the Lamy 2000 are still in production today, but the Parker ‘51’ is not? And then I came here to gripe about that, and I immediately found this thread instead.

 

And then, of course, I immediately transitioned to hoping this new 51 will be really good and not a bit of a joke like the overpriced limited edition novelty pen that they produced some years back.

 

I absolutely don’t accept this theory that Parker can’t do it, that it would be too expensive, that it wouldn’t be viable in the market. If Pilot can do this, and Lamy can do this, then Parker can do this. They’ve got the most iconic and successful fountain pen design in history. All they need to do is tool up and start making them.

 

Today’s VP is not produced exactly identical to the original 1963 Capless. Neither is today’s Lamy 2000 exactly like the ones they made in 1966. However, the fundamental nature of them hasn’t changed, and I don’t know anybody who thinks a modern VP or 2000 is cheaped-out or crummy in any way. And these are not just symbolic collector’s LE pens. I know Lamy sell a (bleep) ton of 2000s, year over year with no end in sight, and people use the hell out of them. And as for the VP… Does anyone know how much it costs Pilot to manufacture this complex, solid and finely-finished pen? There’s no possible way that a high quality 51 couldn’t be produced at lower cost than the VP, provided the production engineering and tooling is set up right to begin with.

 

So, no question in my mind a new 51 is possible. But it’s got to be done right. A new Parker 51 with strange proportions, C/C filling, screw cap, vestigial ink collector, cheap plastics that break, micron-thin plating, etc., is not going to do the trick. It will earn nothing but scorn. It doesn’t have to be made exactly like the old ones in every detail, but it does need to be made well.

 

And this idea that nobody needs a new 51 because there are lots of used ones still in circulation… Guys, I have been through the hunt for a decent 51, and it’s no cake walk. Nice ones are starting to become scarce, and there are an awful lot of not-so-nice ones. For a dedicated fountain pen collector it’s okay, but for newbies or casual collectors? They need a new-in-box with factory warranty pen from a catalog with their choice of color and nib, etc.

[inkstainedruth]

For a dedicated fountain pen collector it’s okay, but for newbies or casual collectors? They need a new-in-box with factory warranty pen from a catalog with their choice of color and nib, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with this. 8-1/2 years ago when I joined FPN I was a clueless newbie with just a couple of pens -- low end modern Parkers. When I started, I read the Parker Forum completely through (yeah, dumb, I know). But got a hankering for a 51 from reading about them. So I started scoping out eBay, and with the help of OcalaFLGuy, who walked me through what to look for, and the questions to ask eBay sellers, I was able to get a reasonably priced 51 Special, and then a reasonably priced 51 Aerometric with a rolled gold cap. It was Teal, so not one of the rarer colors, but it's a great writer. The only 51s I had any trouble with were the 51 Vacs (because they tended to need some repairs) and with the two that had EF nibs (but I was able to find nibmeisters to work on those for relatively inexpensively and now those work great as well. I didn't pay an arm and a leg on any of them, even with repairs, because I didn't buy minty-minty ones. Heck -- even my Plum Demi is definitely "user grade" -- which works for me because that made it more affordable, and since I'm not a c-worder, and want pens to write with, that's all good.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: For those people who want a new pen with a box and a warranty from a catalog? There are plenty of low-end to mid-range priced pens. I probably even have some of them. But most of my 51s? They were less expensive than some of the modern, nice, well-made, good writing pens I also own.

Edited September 4, 2020 by inkstainedruth

[CS388]

Parker is issuing a new model. They're calling it P51. Perhaps they should've called it P52. It might be a very good pen. Or not. We'll see. I'm looking forward to trying one.

Great idea. Parker 52. Works for me.

 

Also agree with earlier posters regarding the new Mini: still being called the Mini, but the size of a medium sized van.

 

These iconic names have done their work and earned their place in the halls of fame.

Don't sully them with your new creations.

Have the confidence in your product to give it a new name of its own.

[Mangrove Jack]

I absolutely don’t accept this theory that Parker can’t do it, that it would be too expensive, that it wouldn’t be viable in the market. If Pilot can do this, and Lamy can do this, then Parker can do this. They’ve got the most iconic and successful fountain pen design in history. All they need to do is tool up and start making them.

Yes. BUT, Parker is no longer Parker. And it is certainly not a Pilot or Lamy.

[tonybelding]

ETA: For those people who want a new pen with a box and a warranty from a catalog? There are plenty of low-end to mid-range priced pens. I probably even have some of them. But most of my 51s? They were less expensive than some of the modern, nice, well-made, good writing pens I also own.

Okay, in counterpoint let me offer a quote that I stumbled across on Reddit today, from an individual who had just got his new Lamy 2000:

 

I had looked for weeks at other pens. Which all were highly praised (pilot VP, Pelican 200, P custom 92, platinum 3376) and great pens. However, the Lamy 2000 has everything they have plus this sleek, modern, minimalistic look.

 

Notice that all the other pens he looked are current production catalog items. There are large numbers of fountain pen fans who never even think about vintage pens, or if they do they are quite fearful. A vintage Parker 51 is not even on their radar.

 

The target market of a new Parker 51 would not be people who are already comfortable with vintage pens and already want (or have!) a Parker 51, and I don’t think the existence of vintage 51s would compete with, or suppress, the sale of new ones in any significant way. They’d be going through different channels to different markets with different presentation.

[Estycollector]

You never read an owner of a Lamy Al Star complain and who needs a warrentee for a $20 pen.

[WarrenB]

I just found out this modern 51 thing was happening.

 

And this idea that nobody needs a new 51 because there are lots of used ones still in circulation Guys, I have been through the hunt for a decent 51, and its no cake walk. Nice ones are starting to become scarce, and there are an awful lot of not-so-nice ones. For a dedicated fountain pen collector its okay, but for newbies or casual collectors? They need a new-in-box with factory warranty pen from a catalog with their choice of color and nib, etc.

I both agree and disagree with this, and agree and disagree with Inkstainedruth. Collecting my thoughts about the Parker 51...

 

I own only a couple of vintage pens, both with some kind of sac-filling mechanism, and both with sacs rendered useless, either split or completely crumbled away. One was a Parker 45. Good thing it accepted modern Parker cartridges, which I never had a problem with. Bought a matching colour cap and a gold nib for it, too.

The other pen, a Conway Stewart, I still have to get around to repairing. Complicated slightly by recently reading that silicon sacs can't be shellacked. Bah.

 

So I'm a newbie, or consider myself one, but I'm not frightened of second-hand pens that might need some extra expense or effort. That said, I hope it's not unreasonable that I'd like one that needs as little extra expense and effort as possible.

 

The other side is the statements that I occasionally see in P51 discussions: "I love Parker 51s! I have five or six already and I keep an eye on eBay for them! They're very affordable!"

 

I think 'affordable is relative' and in a fit of immaturity, 'are you one of those that keeps driving the bids up and sniping me when I try to get hold of my first one?'

 

I check eBay for P51s every so often. Maybe that in itself is a sign that I'm not sufficiently devoted to the cult of the P51, but I hear so much about them, I figure I have to get a hold of one sometime, just to see what it's like. But it's irritating to see a nice, wee, inviting starting bid spiral upwards, even if the final price is 'affordable'. And even on 'untested' pens. (in my view and limited experience: code for 'bust-up') And I'm spoiled and picky, okay, but surely they can't all be burgundy and teal? Where'd those forest green ones go?

I'm almost - not quite - at the point where I'd go for a Wing Sung 601 (fewer sacs to fret about, for one thing) and maybe see if a gold nib fits it, for less than the price of a good, working P51 that gets caught up in a bidding war. Let alone less than the extra $150 added to the price of this new thing.

 

And so, this new thing: obviously I can't say what it's like, or how it might compare. (Pretty much the same as anyone, until Feb '21 or thereabouts) Maybe bland, and a paltry thing compared to the original, but somehow I doubt it'd be a complete disaster as a writing experience. I'd view the screw cap as more of a misstep than the horror of putting a blasphemous convertor in it.

Edited October 29, 2020 by WarrenB

[Estycollector]

WarrenB Ive not bid many times because I figure some one is trying to get their first one.

 

No way to know what its all about unless you get one and carry it a month or two.

 

I prefer the early ones.

 

The 601 is a wonderful pen.

[inkstainedruth]

I just found out this modern 51 thing was happening.

 

I both agree and disagree with this, and agree and disagree with Inkstainedruth. Collecting my thoughts about the Parker 51...

 

I own only a couple of vintage pens, both with some kind of sac-filling mechanism, and both with sacs rendered useless, either split or completely crumbled away. One was a Parker 45. Good thing it accepted modern Parker cartridges, which I never had a problem with. Bought a matching colour cap and a gold nib for it, too.

The other pen, a Conway Stewart, I still have to get around to repairing. Complicated slightly by recently reading that silicon sacs can't be shellacked. Bah.

 

So I'm a newbie, or consider myself one, but I'm not frightened of second-hand pens that might need some extra expense or effort. That said, I hope it's not unreasonable that I'd like one that needs as little extra expense and effort as possible.

 

The other side is the statements that I occasionally see in P51 discussions: "I love Parker 51s! I have five or six already and I keep an eye on eBay for them! They're very affordable!"

 

I think 'affordable is relative' and in a fit of immaturity, 'are you one of those that keeps driving the bids up and sniping me when I try to get hold of my first one?'

 

I check eBay for P51s every so often. Maybe that in itself is a sign that I'm not sufficiently devoted to the cult of the P51, but I hear so much about them, I figure I have to get a hold of one sometime, just to see what it's like. But it's irritating to see a nice, wee, inviting starting bid spiral upwards, even if the final price is 'affordable'. And even on 'untested' pens. (in my view and limited experience: code for 'bust-up') And I'm spoiled and picky, okay, but surely they can't all be burgundy and teal? Where'd those forest green ones go?

I'm almost - not quite - at the point where I'd go for a Wing Sung 601 (fewer sacs to fret about, for one thing) and maybe see if a gold nib fits it, for less than the price of a good, working P51 that gets caught up in a bidding war. Let alone less than the extra $150 added to the price of this new thing.

 

And so, this new thing: obviously I can't say what it's like, or how it might compare. (Pretty much the same as anyone, until Feb '21 or thereabouts) Maybe bland, and a paltry thing compared to the original, but somehow I doubt it'd be a complete disaster as a writing experience. I'd view the screw cap as more of a misstep than the horror of putting a blasphemous convertor in it.

Well, I'm not the person bidding 51s up on eBay (I'm the self-avowed notorious cheapskate after all); the most I ever paid for one on there was a little under $72 US, and that was for the Plum Demi (and that price included the shipping charges -- best poker face EVAH). That was a few years ago. Most of mine have actually not come from eBay, except for the first few (I've gotten a few at pen shows, and several for good prices at antiques stores -- usually when the seller doesn't know what they have. My Forest Green Aero came from an estate sale that I got up at 0 dark 30 and drove an hour to get to (I'd looked at photos online ahead of time and said "Oooh, looks like there may be some Parkers in that box..."). And then got there at 20 of 7 and hoped that none of the 15 or so people already in line weren't there for the pens....

But even so, the most I've ever paid for a 51 (including repairs on some of the 51 Vacs) was $120 for an English-made Navy Gray Aero with an OB nib, at an auction at a pen show a few years ago (and that included the buyer's premium). I have paid way more than that for most of my Pelikans. I paid way more than that for the new purple color Pilot Falcon.

And what's wrong with Teal? My first 51 was a Teal Aero, with an F nib. It writes well, and I think I paid about $56 for it (that one WAS on eBay).

I"m betting the "comeback" 51s will cost way more than I paid for it, and likely a lot more than I paid for that English-made Navy Gray (heck, I paid more on eBay for my sterling Silver Ciselé Parker 75). And it will be a c/c pen. So, a REALLY expensive Parker Vector (oh, and I'm inordinately fond of Vectors, BTW -- but the most I ever paid for one of them was around $20).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Glenn-SC]

Bidding seeks the value level established by the people interested in the item.
Prices are not being "driven up". They are just going toward the true value (or desire level) estimate of the bidders.

Nobody is out there thinking "I'm going to make Warren really pay if he wants this one!"

 

I think 'affordable is relative' and in a fit of immaturity, 'are you one of those that keeps driving the bids up and sniping me when I try to get hold of my first one?'

Edited October 30, 2020 by Glenn-SC

[Mangrove Jack]

With the Wing Sung 601 around, which is considered a good, reliable pen, why would anyone buy the new Parker 51 ? At an obviously much higher price too ?

[WarrenB]

Prices are not being "driven up". They are just going toward the true value

Funny how it's hard to tell those apart at arm's length! But like I say, that's the twelve-year-old in the back of my head talking. I know I have to adjust my expectations of what prices these pens move for.

[shostakovich]

The problem with the Parker 51's is that in my opinion they are flawed pens. For a start they need a decent filling system that also holds a good amount of ink. Then the nib is not exactly great. Quite nice (I have one from about 1956). But why reproduce an old brand when pens generally have advanced so much? If they produced a new (and perhaps improved) Parker 51 how would it compare to say a modern Pelikan M400? If the P51 was priced in the £190 area I would buy the Pelikan. If the P51 was priced at about £80 I "might" consider it, if it was worth it. Otherwise, forget it.

[Estycollector]

How on earth have pens advanced so much? There is hardly a day goes by that someone is not complaining about their LAMY 2000 or cracked MB.

 

A good Parker 51, the 42 is my only experience, can be carried day to day with no issues at all.

 

That said, Ive never had the first problem with a LAMY Al Star or Vista, but what do you expect from a $20 pen.....lol!!

[inkstainedruth]

Well, I've never paid THAT little for my al-Stars or Safaris (although I did get both al-Stars for less than my Safaris cost).

But yeah. What Etsycollector said about 51s. They were expensive pens in their day ($12.50 US when a meal in a restaurant cost under a dollar; an Esterbrook J pen was $3 and a 3rd/4th tier brand like Rexall or Arnold was 89¢). But people still wanted them. Why? Because they just WORKED. The two EF nib pens I have (the Forest Green Aero and one of the Cedar Blue Vacs) needed a little nib work, but now are very good writers. A couple of years ago, I looked at some inflation calculator website and a Parker 51 (if still made today) would cost around $150. I have NEVER paid that much for one. Why? Because Parker made 12 MILLION of them -- and then stopped counting. They were the flagship line for the company for twenty years. Even with Plum being a "rare" color, only made one model year -- that still means that there are probably several thousand floating around. And -- especially for the Aerometric models -- there are way more out there. And no, I didn't pay $150 even for the one in the auction at the Triangle Pen Show with the OB nib. And not counting the repairs and the nib work on that Cedar Blue 51 Vac (which, BTW, had a rolled gold cap) I paid $25 in an antiques store outside Fairmont, WV. Which is, BTW, more than I've paid for a few of the Esties (ones with more exotic nibs; heck, I was watching an auction on eBay the other day (didn't bid) for a Estie 9312 nib and the nib ALONE went for roughly the initial price of that 51 Vac.

Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe I just am willing to wander around antiques stores more than some people. (I'm willing to bet that the black Aero I saw in an antiques mall in NW PA about a month ago might still be there -- and the booth holder had it marked at $60, and a black 51 Special in the same case at $50....)

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[shostakovich]

How on earth have pens advanced so much? There is hardly a day goes by that someone is not complaining about their LAMY 2000 or cracked MB.

 

A good Parker 51, the 42 is my only experience, can be carried day to day with no issues at all.

 

That said, Ive never had the first problem with a LAMY Al Star or Vista, but what do you expect from a $20 pen.....lol!!

 

Well the answer is not to buy a Lamy 2000. (Whatever that is). New pens out perform most if not all "vintage" pens in my opinion. Not that I have tried that many of either. I have vintage and modern and there is a clear winner - MODERN. But that is just my very biassed opinion.