Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[Estycollector]

On 5/31/2021 at 12:04 PM, Glenn-SC said:

Thank you for the insult. 
I don’t question your value judgments and I am shocked that you feel enabled to judge mine.  
 

While I can easily to do so I am disinclined to justify to you or anyone what I spend for what. 

it would not bother me if you were quoting someone else and refereneced my choices. I did not ask you to justify anything. I was responding to a post made by Ruth. 

[Glenn-SC]

1 hour ago, Estycollector said:

it would not bother me if you were quoting someone else and refereneced my choices. I did not ask you to justify anything. I was responding to a post made by Ruth. 

You didn't just reference my choices, you cited me as an example claiming that my purchases were wrongly and solely based on price.

 

[TgeekB]

8 hours ago, Glenn-SC said:

You didn't just reference my choices, you cited me as an example claiming that my purchases were wrongly and solely based on price.

 

Just trying to end this unfortunate back and forth - why take things from a stranger on the internet personal? It takes away from the spirit of the forums and the enjoyment of fountain pens we all share. Let it go.

JMHO. 

[enuhski]

So I finally have the NG Parker 51 and some weeks back, I was able to acquire my own Parker 51 - a black aerometric.

 

My honest reaction after my NG Parker 51 arrived was that it was going to be a catch and release for me. It is noticeably heavier than my vintage one when capped but shorter when uncapped. Considering that it is a lot newer than the vintage 51 that I got, it's just a little bit nicer looking and only because it's new.  I haven't inked the pen yet, but from the moment I uncapped it - which is a strange experience in itself, by the way, I felt that it wasn't the kind of pen i'd like to keep in my growing collection.

 

As for the vintage 51, it wrote so smoothly the day I got it but now that I'm using it more, I feel like it has a bit of a sweet spot. I also had a hard time cleaning it - and in a genuine facepalm moment, I forgot at first that I was dealing with an aerometric - my first time, too, so I almost pulled it out absentmindedly thinking it was just like a converter. Down the line, I'm on the fence whether i should keep it, too, but only because I'm trying to keep my collection manageable and because right now, a vintage Waterman concorde (that isn't damaged, lucky me) is fulfilling my vintage pen fix. I know that this is slightly OT, but I would love to hear your advice on what inks to use and how to effectively clean the pen without needing to take it apart. 

 

Thank you

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

It is entirely possible that your vintage "51" that it does have a bit of a sweet spot. Some "51"s have enough mileage on them that they have worn in the nib a little. A good nib meister might be able to correct it for you depending on how much tipping there is on the pen, or you may simply just accept it as it is. I have one like this, I've grown to like its quirks  

 

as for cleaning, there is this:

I have not yet built one, so I still do the "paper towel over the nib and shake it like crazy" method, but this is on my list of things to build.

 

 

[enuhski]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:57 AM, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

It is entirely possible that your vintage "51" that it does have a bit of a sweet spot. Some "51"s have enough mileage on them that they have worn in the nib a little. A good nib meister might be able to correct it for you depending on how much tipping there is on the pen, or you may simply just accept it as it is. I have one like this, I've grown to like its quirks  

 

as for cleaning, there is this:

I have not yet built one, so I still do the "paper towel over the nib and shake it like crazy" method, but this is on my list of things to build.

 

 

 

Thank you! The thread looks like a very complicated solution LOL I just cleaned through the usual way the pen. However, any suggestions on how to do it better are welcome. Thanks so much

 

p.s. Have not inked the P51 plum yet. Am actually trying to sell it locally now since I don't foresee keeping it.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

I built a salad spinner centrifuge tonight (finally) and used it to clean a Wing Sung 601 ("51" clone)

it was the fastest cleaning of a "51" or "51" clone I've ever done.

and likely one of the most thorough

 

 

 

[Estycollector]

On 7/1/2021 at 2:23 AM, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

I built a salad spinner centrifuge tonight (finally) and used it to clean a Wing Sung 601 ("51" clone)

it was the fastest cleaning of a "51" or "51" clone I've ever done.

and likely one of the most thorough

 

 

 

Why would you need to clean a pen this way?

 

I've used my WS 601 flighter for months on a daily basis, but since retiring not once....LOL! This has to be one of the finest pens ever produced in the 51 style. 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

6 hours ago, Estycollector said:

Why would you need to clean a pen this way?

 

I've used my WS 601 flighter for months on a daily basis, but since retiring not once....LOL! This has to be one of the finest pens ever produced in the 51 style. 

because emptying a vacumatic filling style pen is a total PITA...

 

so my options were:

a- 3 quick trips in the salad spinner (which took less than 5 mins or so) (filled with water between trips in the spinner);

b- tear the pen down to component pieces (which I can and have done, but would like to do LESS if possible) and flush it with a bulb syringe; or

c- spend a lot more time than I want to in filing it with water and then draining it and then filling it with water again and then draining it (repeat ad nauseam)

All in all the spinner cost me only about $15 to make, and saves me a butt load of time in cleaning.

 

And in case you are wondering why I wanted it so clean: Because I was putting the pen away in the drawer in favour of another pen and I want it clean and dry when I put it away. 

 

And I agree, my 601s are better than my Parker 21s and they don't fall very short of my real "51"s!

Excellent pens. Anyone thinking of dropping $100+ on a well restored "51" I recommend they drop $20 on a 601 first (assuming they have no experience with "51"s at all that is.)

[TheRedBeard]

22 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

...............

 

And I agree, my 601s are better than my Parker 21s and they don't fall very short of my real "51"s!

Excellent pens. Anyone thinking of dropping $100+ on a well restored "51" I recommend they drop $20 on a 601 first (assuming they have no experience with "51"s at all that is.)

IMHO, not good recommendation, sorry ...  

For anyone, who has never tried original P51,  it is always better to buy it in an excellent  condition and try... Otherwise, his/her impressions may be easily spoiled by those cheap copies...

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

3 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

IMHO, not good recommendation, sorry ...  

For anyone, who has never tried original P51,  it is always better to buy it in an excellent  condition and try... Otherwise, his/her impressions may be easily spoiled by those cheap copies...

 

Maybe.

 

If $100 to you is no big deal, or if selling something you don't like is easy for you to do then by all means, buy a well restored "51" and have at 'er  

 

But a lot of people are hesitant to drop +100$ on a pen they've never tried, and a very polarizing pen at that.

 

The usual recommendation is: "well, go buy a 21 Super and see if you like it" except 21 Super's are now usually more expensive than a nice 601, and frankly, the plastic in them is garbage, the caps aren't as nice, etc etc. 

I won't buy another 21 Super (for more than about 10bucks) unless I intend to harvest the nib for a "51" Special.

 

But for those who do not want to spend +100$ to try something out; The 601 is good to see if they like the way it feels in their hand, and if they can make the hooded nib work for them aesthetically. Also, if they are considering a Vac "51", can they live with the time and effort required to properly clean a vac "51"? A 601 lets them figure that out. So in those instances I still recommend they drop $20 on a Wing Sung 601. (my experience with hero 616 is not anywhere near as good as with the WS 601, and the 616 isn't a vac type filler)

 

to be clear: A well tuned REAL Parker "51" is a superior pen in just about every way to a Wing Sung 601. The 601 is just a good way to see if you like the way it looks and feels and if it can work for you in your life. The average 601 is not on par with a GOOD "51" for writing experience. A 601 isn't bad or anything, it's just that a GOOD "51" is that good  

[TheRedBeard]

1 hour ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Maybe.

 

If $100 to you is no big deal, or if selling something you don't like is easy for you to do then by all means, buy a well restored "51" and have at 'er  

 

But a lot of people are hesitant to drop +100$ on a pen they've never tried, and a very polarizing pen at that.

 

The usual recommendation is: "well, go buy a 21 Super and see if you like it" except 21 Super's are now usually more expensive than a nice 601, and frankly, the plastic in them is garbage, the caps aren't as nice, etc etc. 

I won't buy another 21 Super (for more than about 10bucks) unless I intend to harvest the nib for a "51" Special.

 

But for those who do not want to spend +100$ to try something out; The 601 is good to see if they like the way it feels in their hand, and if they can make the hooded nib work for them aesthetically. Also, if they are considering a Vac "51", can they live with the time and effort required to properly clean a vac "51"? A 601 lets them figure that out. So in those instances I still recommend they drop $20 on a Wing Sung 601. (my experience with hero 616 is not anywhere near as good as with the WS 601, and the 616 isn't a vac type filler)

 

to be clear: A well tuned REAL Parker "51" is a superior pen in just about every way to a Wing Sung 601. The 601 is just a good way to see if you like the way it looks and feels and if it can work for you in your life. The average 601 is not on par with a GOOD "51" for writing experience. A 601 isn't bad or anything, it's just that a GOOD "51" is that good  

Thank you for your detailed comment, IThink

I see your point and I agree with you. 

 

I have been a devoted Parker user for decades, but I became a Parker collector exactly after trying original P51 for the first time just a few years ago... 

That is why I believe that experience of using an original P51 cannot be  imitated by any other pen. 

 

And that is why my No.2 choice is Parker 100  

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

40 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

Thank you for your detailed comment, IThink

I see your point and I agree with you. 

 

I have been a devoted Parker user for decades, but I became a Parker collector exactly after trying original P51 for the first time just a few years ago... 

That is why I believe that experience of using an original P51 cannot be  imitated by any other pen. 

 

And that is why my No.2 choice is Parker 100  

 

You're more than welcome  

My first FP was a charcoal safari (yeah, I know, real original)

and my second was a 1949 Teal "51" Aero-metric with a nib that has many many hundreds or thousands of pages of "William Jamieson's" handwriting worn into its medium nib. Luckily, he and I hold a pen at the same basic angle, so it works out

My next one was a "51" Demi Special only a week or so later.

I still have both. (and many more since)

So I know the appeal of a "51" well.

My top two pen models are a Snorkel with a Triumph nib, or a "51" it's a tie since I am lucky enough to have very good examples of both. 

But I have never regretted buying any of my 6 Wing Sung 601s, they are all really good pens, and excellent beaters. If you like "51"s but want a pen you can leave your house with without worrying about loosing it (too much) I recommend a 601. you can't really go wrong. And as such that's what I use as a daily user/carry pen.

[TheRedBeard]

23 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

You're more than welcome  

My first FP was a charcoal safari (yeah, I know, real original)

and my second was a 1949 Teal "51" Aero-metric with a nib that has many many hundreds or thousands of pages of "William Jamieson's" handwriting worn into its medium nib. Luckily, he and I hold a pen at the same basic angle, so it works out

My next one was a "51" Demi Special only a week or so later.

I still have both. (and many more since)

So I know the appeal of a "51" well.

My top two pen models are a Snorkel with a Triumph nib, or a "51" it's a tie since I am lucky enough to have very good examples of both. 

But I have never regretted buying any of my 6 Wing Sung 601s, they are all really good pens, and excellent beaters. If you like "51"s but want a pen you can leave your house with without worrying about loosing it (too much) I recommend a 601. you can't really go wrong. And as such that's what I use as a daily user/carry pen.

I see, but I don't worry about carrying my P51 with me altogether with one of my P75s - both are my two main daily pens  

 

 

[Estycollector]

17 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

because emptying a vacumatic filling style pen is a total PITA...

 

so my options were:

a- 3 quick trips in the salad spinner (which took less than 5 mins or so) (filled with water between trips in the spinner);

b- tear the pen down to component pieces (which I can and have done, but would like to do LESS if possible) and flush it with a bulb syringe; or

c- spend a lot more time than I want to in filing it with water and then draining it and then filling it with water again and then draining it (repeat ad nauseam)

All in all the spinner cost me only about $15 to make, and saves me a butt load of time in cleaning.

 

And in case you are wondering why I wanted it so clean: Because I was putting the pen away in the drawer in favour of another pen and I want it clean and dry when I put it away. 

 

And I agree, my 601s are better than my Parker 21s and they don't fall very short of my real "51"s!

Excellent pens. Anyone thinking of dropping $100+ on a well restored "51" I recommend they drop $20 on a 601 first (assuming they have no experience with "51"s at all that is.)

The repair person, can't remember his name, that restored a gold and dove grey for me said to refill them on schedule and not when they need a refill or run out of ink. 

 

I can appreciate wanting them clean when putting them away, however. I only have two and keep them in use. 

 

I began with a WS 601 and then bought the first '42 51, so, I agree. 

[ProfessorBranestawm]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:19 PM, TheRedBeard said:

Sure, I have also read a lot about out-of-the-box problems with very expensive pens (people even had to send them to nibmeisters...) but I have never heard about such a problem with any top Parkers...

Sorry to reply after such a time has passed, but I really do think that, such is quality control nowadays, it is very much the ‘luck of the draw’.

I have three Duofold Centennials- sadly not one of the three has ever written without skipping regularly and without constant hard starting. 

[TheRedBeard]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:13 PM, ProfessorBranestawm said:

Sorry to reply after such a time has passed, but I really do think that, such is quality control nowadays, it is very much the ‘luck of the draw’.

I have three Duofold Centennials- sadly not one of the three has ever written without skipping regularly and without constant hard starting. 

Bad news... but not surprising at all..  

That is why I stopped buying modern Parkers completely... 

 

[Heinkle]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:13 PM, ProfessorBranestawm said:

Sorry to reply after such a time has passed, but I really do think that, such is quality control nowadays, it is very much the ‘luck of the draw’.

I have three Duofold Centennials- sadly not one of the three has ever written without skipping regularly and without constant hard starting. 

 

Have to agree - my newish Big Red Centennial has a bit of a feed flow issue, and I find myself having to use the converter to replenish ink into the feed every so often (regardless of ink). I don't have this problem with much cheaper pens, like the TWSBI Eco, or even the early 90s modern Duofolds.

[Mercian]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:59 PM, Heinkle said:

 

Have to agree - my newish Big Red Centennial has a bit of a feed flow issue, and I find myself having to use the converter to replenish ink into the feed every so often (regardless of ink). I don't have this problem with much cheaper pens, like the TWSBI Eco, or even the early 90s modern Duofolds.

I think that the problem you’re having with ink flow might be attributable to the ‘surface tension’ issue with the converter, rather than being any kind of problem with your Duofolds.

 

I often have the same problem with my Parker ‘deluxe’ twist converters; ink sticks to the side of the converter and some of it stays at the piston-end of the converter, rather than flowing down in to the nib-unit. To get ink to flow through one’s pen again one has either to spend Some Time flicking the piston-end of the converter to get the ink to drop down to the nib-end, or has to drive the piston down towards the nib-end.

I have had this problem with the ‘deluxe’ twist converters when using Parker Quink, Sailor Kiwa Guro, Waterman Serenity Blue, and Rohrer & Klingner Salix. I conclude that the problem is not being caused by the ink, but instead is being caused by the design/construction of the ‘deluxe’ converter. I have had the same problem with LAMY Z24/Z28 converters.

Ironically, I have never suffered from this problem when using one of the cheaper ‘slide converters’ that are also made by Parker, because those contain a small ball-bearing that acts as an agitator inside the converter’s piston chamber. The agitator breaks the surface tension of any ‘blobs’ of ink that have adhered to the piston-end of the converter, and so the ink always flows down to the nib-end of the converter.

Neither the Parker ‘deluxe’ twist converter nor the LAMY converters contain an agitator.

 

This niggles me; Parker’s ‘deluxe’ twist converters (which ship with Parker’s more-expensive pens) look nicer and cost slightly more than Parker’s slide converters do, but in my experience their lack of an agitator means that they offer less utility (i.e. don’t work as well) as the slide converters.

 

I suppose that at least the problem is easy & cheap to solve - buy a Parker slide converter for a few £ - but I do wish that Parker would include the agitator in their ‘deluxe’ converters. Perhaps they don’t include them because they think that the rattling noise will annoy pen owners? 🤷‍♂️

 

[matteob]

Sorry late to the party.I read about the old Parker company business model as being devoted to affordable (as opposed to cheap: i mean buy once keep forever) quality and they really did stand by their product with a lifetime warranty (now cut to two years) Now I think everything is about “the brand.” The young generation of marketeers believe people will pay for the snob value of a well known brand. People who are of my generation and before, at least those I know are not bothered by a brand but a long reputation for quality and value for money which translates into customer goodwill. I grew up in the 80s and still have my Parker 25 from school and it still writes perfectly after hard use. I have a vintage 51 too and it is a lovely old workhorse: no gold finishing on cap but burgundy and steel cap but it is what 65 years old and still reliable. I am interested in this new 51 but it seems steeply priced and I think the new company (who I am suspicious of for laying off all the old workforce in the UK and US that built the reputation for quality) is just seeking to trade off the name.  I bought a Newell Vector a few years back and definitely could see the quality had suffered compared to the ones I used as a boy: lighter plastic and  a more flimsy feel. It didn’t auto puncture the cartridge like the old ones either on tightening the barrel. For my daily use now I have a Platinum 3776 bought in Japan and that feels like Parker used to:simple but excellent quality control and beautifully controlled ink flow with no skips. I might try one of these new 51s if I am flush one day but the criticism and price have put me off. I find it odd people are comparing Wing Sungs to genuine 51s. I bought one. It had a thin nib and very bad ink flow problems: prone to gushing out large drops of ink without warning. I tossed it in the end. I am not being snobby but take Swiss Army Knives for example. Victorinox make millions of them but they are all excellent quality and they all have a lifetime guarantee/service pledge. I sent a 20 year old one in and got it sent by the UK distributor to Swizerland where it was sharpened, polished and oiled for free. Yes they want to make money but they value their reputation too. You just can’t compare the Chinese knock offs to the real thing: with those there is no comparison. The danger is that brand could one day be taken over by a conglomerate like Newell who are only interested in “Brand Value” and think they can because of that still charge premium prices for stuff of reduced quality. Think is with the image conscious younger generation used to a throw away society they can get away with it.