Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[Mr Gutsy]

5 hours ago, Glenn-SC said:

Does the cap have an inner cap that seals against the hood?
Every modern pen that I can think of has some mechanism to seal the nib from ambient air to prevent the ink from drying when the pen is capped.

Long time, viewer - first time poster as I feel I can answer this. 
 

As far as I can tell, the NG51 does not have an inner cap seal in either the standard or deluxe model - or if there is one, it is not to the same quality as the original 51.

 

 I tested this with filling the pen with ink alongside an original 51 filled the same ink (Quink) at the same time and left them for a week unused. Both pens were stored upright, for the week.

 

The original 51 worked with no problem when I put the pen to paper, but the NG51 failed to perform. I had to prime the NG51 in the end by using the converter to flush some ink out of the pen before it began to write again. The pen showed no issue in prior tests I had with it. I used it as a daily carry for a complete fill until empty before refilling it and performing the above test.

[ele]

They do have inner caps (of course!) but I have noticed a minor bit of dryout over several days. 

[TheRedBeard]

17 minutes ago, Mr Gutsy said:

Long time, viewer - first time poster as I feel I can answer this. 
 

As far as I can tell, the NG51 does not have an inner cap seal in either the standard or deluxe model - or if there is one, it is not to the same quality as the original 51.

 

 I tested this with filling the pen with ink alongside an original 51 filled the same ink (Quink) at the same time and left them for a week unused. Both pens were stored upright, for the week.

 

The original 51 worked with no problem when I put the pen to paper, but the NG51 failed to perform. I had to prime the NG51 in the end by using the converter to flush some ink out of the pen before it began to write again. The pen showed no issue in prior tests I had with it. I used it as a daily carry for a complete fill until empty before refilling it and performing the above test.

Thanks for sharing this experience...very useful to know...

 

[Glenn-SC]

So we have three votes "Does" and one vote "Doesn't" have an inner cap.

Well.

I would be extremely surprised if it did not have an inner cap as the need to seal the nib from ambient air to lessen drying has been known for decades.

How well any particular design works is to be proven.

 

PS: I have lots of pens that have an inner cap that have the nibs/feeds dry after laying horizontally for only hours (ehem: Edison).  So a standing a particular pen nib up for a week and the nib/feed drying is (unfortunately) not surprising.  I would be interested to know if other new 51s exhibit the same trait.

 

 

 

[Mr Gutsy]

2 minutes ago, Glenn-SC said:

So we have three votes "Does" and one vote "Doesn't" have an inner cap.

Well.

I would be extremely surprised if it did not have an inner cap as the need to seal the nib from ambient air to lessen drying has been known for decades.

How well any particular design works is to be proven.

 

PS: I have lots of pens that have an inner cap that have the nibs/feeds dry after laying horizontally for only hours (ehem: Edison).  So a standing a particular pen nib up for a week and the nib/feed drying is (unfortunately) not surprising.  I would be interested to know if other new 51s exhibit the same trait.

 

 

 

 

I did the experiment on the standard model of the NG51 - I also own a deluxe and am happy to repeat the experiment with it for science to see if this is a repeatable for both models. 

[JCC123]

I just looked and there is a black plastic inner cap. The sleeve of the cap leading towards the tip has some holes about halfway up the cap. I imagine those are the holes that the air would pass through exhausting out the top jewel when blowing in the cap.

[peroride]

On 4/4/2021 at 11:40 PM, maclink said:

One thing I never did on my Deluxe was to try that blow test.

My steel version dries out and yet no light shines through my cap. So I mistakenly believed the nib is sealed from evaporation. The pen dries on Quink and Noodler's: saturation increases and/or skips.

 

I too did not think about blowing through the cap, now I understand why. I've gotten to the point of diluting my ink to extend dry out but this cap 'feature' really downgrades my longer term review of the pen.

 

As always, YMMV

[Mercian]

On 4/5/2021 at 7:40 AM, maclink said:

This little 'design feature' did it in for me.  I did write the pen dry and still love the nib.  However, I now understand why the ink was so saturated after leaving it a couple days without writing.

 

On 4/5/2021 at 11:37 AM, Glenn-SC said:

So you own the pen, used the pen, like how it writes, but upon the discovery of an attribute that apparently doesn't effect how it writes you now dislike the pen?

 

Glenn-SC, you appear not to have noticed the part of maclink's comment that I have quoted - in maclink's experience, the ink in the Parker 51 (NG) starts to appear more-saturated after a couple of days of not using the pen.

That is a symptom of evaporation, and it is a problem that will lead to the ink drying-out inside the pen, and perhaps even clogging it.

 

i.e. the cap of the Parker 51 (NG) owned by maclink appears to suffer the same design flaw for which the cap on the Parker Sonnet is notorious.

 

 

22 hours ago, Mr Gutsy said:

 I tested this with filling the pen with ink alongside an original 51 filled the same ink (Quink) at the same time and left them for a week unused. Both pens were stored upright, for the week.

 

The original 51 worked with no problem when I put the pen to paper, but the NG51 failed to perform. I had to prime the NG51 in the end by using the converter to flush some ink out of the pen before it began to write again. The pen showed no issue in prior tests I had with it. I used it as a daily carry for a complete fill until empty before refilling it and performing the above test.

 

Mr Gutsy's experience - early/rapid drying-out of the ink inside the pen's feed while the pen is still capped - is exactly the same as maclink's - and that of the myriads of disappointed owners of Parker Sonnets.

 

22 hours ago, Glenn-SC said:

PS: I have lots of pens that have an inner cap that have the nibs/feeds dry after laying horizontally for only hours (ehem: Edison).  So a standing a particular pen nib up for a week and the nib/feed drying is (unfortunately) not surprising.  I would be interested to know if other new 51s exhibit the same trait.

 

 

You are indeed right about that. But there are also many pens that don't suffer from the rapid-drying-out-whilst-capped problem that plagues the Parker Sonnet, and which also appears to be a feature of the 51 (NG).
There are even some other current Parker pens that don't exhibit this phenomenon - e.g. I don't recall seeing anyone complain about this problem in a Vector or a modern Duofold.
My Parker Vectors (1994 UK, 2019 India) don't do it. My Parker Frontiers (2005 UK, and two 2015 India) don't do it, my 2004 UK Parker Jotter doesn't do it, and neither do my first-generation Parker Urbans (2012 & 2015) - although I have seen comments on here that suggest that this problem does occur in the second-generation Urban & IM
But the Sonnet is, of course, notorious for it.

 

None of my LAMYs (a Vista, three Safaris, and a 2000) suffer from this problem. None of my Pelikans (two Pelikanos, M205, M805) suffer from it.
I have not seen reports of any pens that do it except for modern Parkers (and, now, also your Edison).

 

Before anybody repeats the following widespread rumour, this problem is NOT the result of some EU/French 'health and safety gone mad' law - otherwise every pen produced in the EU/France would suffer from it. Which they don't. Not even Waterman pens (owned by the same group, and produced in the same factory, as Parker pens) suffer from this problem.
It is a problem that has been caused by a particular design decision made by Parker.

It's a real shame.

I don't actually mind that the 'guts' of this pen are apparently the same as those in some of Parker's cheaper models (e.g. LAMY do this too).
I don't actually mind that the pen is only offered in 'M' or 'F' nibs (the same is true for nearly all modern Parker pens) - although I would like to see a broader range of nibs offered in future.
I hope that Parker will start including a converter with each pen, and that they will also include the warranty/instructions/range advertising leaflets with the pens soon - one can, I think, assume that the 51s that have come to market so far were from an early production run (which their 'Q.III' production-date code indicates) and that the Covid-19 pandemic has disrupted production of things such as the new leaflets, and perhaps also the ability to have enough staff in the French factory to manually process the supplies of leaflets & converters & include those in each of the boxes in which these early pens have shipped.

 

But the drying-out issue that has been reported by more than one owner is a big problem for me. This is not some inexpensive 'starter pen' - it is a pen whose least-expensive version (currently) costs £75.
I hoped that Parker would NOT repeat the same problem that has always blighted the Sonnet when they launched this pen. They even made the cap a screw cap, expressly to try to reduce nib dry-out. But they also included the three large slots from the top of the Sonnet's cap in the top of the 51's cap, thereby negating the efficacy of screw-closure of the cap.

They appear to not have learned from the mistake that they made with the Sonnet (incidentally, I blame the drying-out flaw that was built-in to in the Sonnet for the company's decision to discontinue its 'Penman' range of saturated inks), and have also retained in the Sonnet's design at every design-tweak since its launch in 1993/4.
 

I expect that owners of this new 51 will find its performance to be very similar to that of the Sonnet - IF you write with it all day long, it will write smoothly and (particularly the gold-nibbed pens) delightfully.
But, if you leave your 51 unused over the weekend, when you get back to it you will find that its ink has 'changed colour', and/or that the pen hard-starts, and if you leave it unused for longer than a few days you may come back to a pen that has clogged - and I am talking here about users in low-lying, cool and humid England.
I can only imagine how soon catastrophic dry-out  would happen if one were to try to use this pen in a high, hot, and arid environment (such as New Mexico or Nevada).
This is, remember, a pen whose nib-&-feed unit cannot be (easily) extracted for cleaning.

Why, oh why did Parker decide to produce this pen with a cap whose huge air-vents mean that it doesn't seal?

[Mike B]

Again, some very interesting discussions here. I’m grateful that  everyone is working hard to control their emotions while dealing with the closest subject possible to a discussion on politics or religion on FPN: namely, whether or not the Parker “51” is in fact the divine pen.

Quite honestly, I am not sure that the original “51” caps are as airtight as some might believe. The clutch fittings certainly would permit some migration of air from without to within. Anyone who has suffered through a few courses in heat and thermodynamics will appreciate that a real, full-on breeze is not needed to equalize the humidity inside and outside the cap (Mercian, there is a very interesting discussion now taking place on the Lamy sub-forum concerning Lamy pens that do dry out).

I  think the major reason why the old Parkers are so resistant to drying out comes from the fact that their nib, collector and feed mechanisms were built to deal with an ink that was dry as soon as it was written. There is almost no air contact with the ink until it is on the very last bit of the nib channel. Today, this design has the added benefit that the pen can go for perhaps a week without starting to darken up or dry out (although even with a “51” pen I would not try that approach with the original 51 ink). And of course it has the disadvantage that anyone who has a “51” will appreciate when trying to clean their pen out in order to use a different ink colour.

This near-total lack of air contact is not likely to be the case with the new model, which might have a Jotter feed and nib. 

[TheRedBeard]

1 hour ago, Mercian said:

............

Why, oh why did Parker decide to produce this pen with a cap whose huge air-vents mean that it doesn't seal?

I have given my opinion on one of the reasons behind that a day or two ago here

I think nowadays Newell has no designers/specialists with sufficient expertise in fountain pen design and manufacturing...

For me it is one of the obvious reasons.

 

[Glenn-SC]

4 hours ago, Mercian said:

None of my LAMYs (a Vista, three Safaris, and a 2000) suffer from this problem. None of my Pelikans (two Pelikanos, M205, M805) suffer from it.

I have not seen reports of any pens that do it except for modern Parkers (and, now, also your Edison).

 

Oh, I have other pens and Brands that dried out on me (Montegrappa (single pen), Bexley (a whole bunch), Stipula (several), MB (a hand-full), etc.) besides the Edisons (a whole bunch, too) so the event is not unique to a given company or design.  And some may be a pen-to-pen thing, as soon as I got to the point where once I a hard starting/drying pen, I would avoid the brand.  I have too many well behaved pens to waste my time on those who don't.

4 hours ago, Mercian said:

Why, oh why did Parker decide to produce this pen with a cap whose huge air-vents mean that it doesn't seal?

 

 

Well, the existence or absence for an "inner cap" or other mechanism that "seals" the nib/feed from those "huge air-vents" still seems to be a question.

How well that seal works, or the ink retention capability of the feed/nib/hood assembly seems to be a question too.

 

BTW: My humble experience is that the ink in the nibs/feeds of many pens dries and concentrates with the initial characters being darker that those that follow even if there is no disruption of ink flow to the paper.

[maclink]

1 hour ago, Mike B said:

I’m grateful that  everyone is working hard to control their emotions while dealing with the closest subject possible to a discussion on politics or religion on FPN: namely, whether or not the Parker “51” is in fact the divine pen.

So well said!!

[maclink]

49 minutes ago, Glenn-SC said:

BTW: My humble experience is that the ink in the nibs/feeds of many pens dries and concentrates with the initial characters being darker that those that follow even if there is no disruption of ink flow to the paper.

 

I've become particular about this attribute, especially since I mainly use Permanent inks these days and permanent ink is particularly sensitive to drying out issues.  For instance, I recently got a pen (I will not name) which I tried with a MB Permanent ink cartridge.  After a few hours, it hard started and overnight, it wouldn't start up.  I just flushed it and switched the cartridge to Diamine Deep Forest.  It's still writing even after leaving it for weeks at a time undisturbed.  However, with each test, the ink is so saturated that it's black.  None, and I mean, none of my pens that seal properly put down saturated lines when writing with them after long periods without use.  

 

I am aware that many pens fail to seal properly.   I am not sure why you are making this point.  Does this excuse the problem with the new P51?  Are you saying that it's nothing out of the ordinary, so are wondering why all the hoopla over it?  For me, I no longer have patience with any pen that seals poorly.  As soon as I discover the behaviour, I lose interest and they end up in storage.  Fortunately for me, my pens don't commonly suffer from this issue.  My only pen that means a lot to me and that does this is my <cough><cough> <ermmmmm> Conid Minimalistica. .... <cough> <choke>    

[SleeperService]

1 hour ago, maclink said:

<cough><cough> <ermmmmm> Conid Minimalistica. .... <cough> <choke>    

Well, I'm sure you'll find plenty of eager enthusiasts willing to help take this problematic pen off your hands. 😅

[maclink]

8 minutes ago, SleeperService said:

Well, I'm sure you'll find plenty of eager enthusiasts willing to help take this problematic pen off your hands. 😅

Oh no you don't. 

 

I love the pen and have resigned to use it with waterbased ink that's pretty easy or dead easy to clean.  Afterall, it's the only real fault I can find in the pen.  My last fill was with Iroshizuku Kon Peki.  

[Glenn-SC]

4 hours ago, Mercian said:

None of my LAMYs (a Vista, three Safaris, and a 2000) suffer from this problem. None of my Pelikans (two Pelikanos, M205, M805) suffer from it.

I have not seen reports of any pens that do it except for modern Parkers (and, now, also your Edison).

 

"I have not seen reports of any pens that do it except for modern Parkers (and, now, also your Edison)."
Well, that's a pretty strong damnation of Parker in general and the new 51 specifically.

 

2 hours ago, maclink said:

I am aware that many pens fail to seal properly.   I am not sure why you are making this point.  Does this excuse the problem with the new P51?  Are you saying that it's nothing out of the ordinary, so are wondering why all the hoopla over it?  For me, I no longer have patience with any pen that seals poorly.  As soon as I discover the behaviour, I lose interest and they end up in storage.  Fortunately for me, my pens don't commonly suffer from this issue.  My only pen that means a lot to me and that does this is my <cough><cough> <ermmmmm> Conid Minimalistica. .... <cough> <choke>    

 

And that is why I mention that nib/feed drying is not uniquely a Parker phenomenon, but one that occurs to other pens individually, and, in my experience, some brands in general.

 

Is it acceptable?  IMHO, No.

It seems unacceptable to you as well, except when you like the pen. 😏

[maclink]

1 minute ago, Glenn-SC said:

And that is why I mention that nib/feed drying is not uniquely a Parker phenomenon,

 

I don't see where anyone proposed otherwise.  

1 minute ago, Glenn-SC said:

Is it acceptable?  IMHO, No.

It seems unacceptable to you as well, except when you like the pen. 😏

 

I don't ever find it 'acceptable'.  However, I may choose to overlook the problem, not if I like the pen, but if I love the pen. 

[PAKMAN]

I personally looked in the new 51 and 51 deluxe pens and do indeed see an inner cap. Not enough run time yet to see if there will be a drying out issue. Personally I am loving the new design and have had a ball carrying my Deluxe Plum in my pocket today. (Boy is it taking me some time to remember to unthread the cap instead of pull it!) LOL

[Glenn-SC]

3 hours ago, maclink said:

 

I don't see where anyone proposed otherwise.  

 

 

Ah, I directly quoted Mercian and then repeated the statement with and for emphasis.  So, yes, any anyone did.

 

I like facts and try to stick to facts.

Opinions are great, until they get portrayed as facts.

[Mercian]

4 hours ago, Glenn-SC said:

 

"I have not seen reports of any pens that do it except for modern Parkers (and, now, also your Edison)."
Well, that's a pretty strong damnation of Parker in general and the new 51 specifically.

 

 

After I listed the many and varied modern Parkers - both pens that I own, and pens that I don't own - that DON'T do it? 🤣

No, it isn't.
Please don't attempt to claim that it is in any way 'brand bashing'.
The fact that, in the same post, I went on to list the things that other people have disliked about the new 51 that don't bother me further demonstrates that fallaciousness of your attempted calumny.

 

I have levelled a criticism at the Sonnet - an expensive pen that is notorious for drying-out, and whose owners have warned me off from purchasing it - and I have stated that this new 51 appears - from the experiences cited by people who have bought the pen - to also suffer from the same problem.

 

But ignoring the majority of what I actually posted, and then extrapolating from the two critical statements that I did make, to accuse me of 'brand bashing'? That's libellous. Please don't do it again.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Glenn-SC said:

 

Ah, I directly quoted Mercian and then repeated the statement with and for emphasis.  So, yes, any anyone did.

 

I like facts and try to stick to facts.

Opinions are great, until they get portrayed as facts.

 

Going by your two statements that I have quoted here, you seem to me to like to misrepresent the statements made by other people who happen to disagree with you - and especially those of people who have pointed out any errors that you have made.

Going by the part of your statement that I have emphasized, it seems to me that you also to like to then calumniate people who have disagreed with you - for saying/thinking the things that you have falsely extrapolated from their statements and then falsely attributed to them.

That, sir, is not something that one can characterise as liking/trying to "stick to facts".

As you say, "opinions are great, until they get portrayed as facts".
As you have said that, I trust that in future you will be able, when encountering other people's opinions that differ from your own, be able to disagree with them respectfully and civilly, and neither tout your own opinions as somehow being 'infallible objective facts', nor stoop to making 'Straw Man' attacks on anyone who happens to disagree with you.
 

Slàinte,
M.