Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[peroride]

 

As an old friend once taught me: talk is cheap, put up or shut up as he punched me in the face (just kiddin' 😅)

 

Here are some of my Parker 51 pens and their homages/clones/styles

 

Top to bottom

• Wing Sung 601 Flighter (China)
• Wing Sung 601 double jeweled (China)
• Jinhao 85 (China)
• Farmboy Parker 87😆 aka Parker 51 2020 version (France)
• Parker 51 Demi (United States of America)
• Parker 51 Regular (United States of America)

My curiosity has been sated with the ones from France and China they are good pens and I recommend them for folks looking for a competent budget pen. However, the only ones that occupy my wooden pen case along with other vintage and $$$ are the vintage Parkers ❤️. For me they are just better. YMMV.

 

[PithyProlix]

1 hour ago, FarmBoy said:

If Parker would have called this pen the 87 would anyone have cared or even noticed?

I don't think people would have cared as much but, yes, because it would still obviously be an homage to the 51. 

 

I think a big part of the problem is that I don't think anyone likes to see the company (if only in name) that made some of the best pens in the world rest on its laurels (if they are even doing that competently), especially when it seems so obvious and superficial. It's not just because they named it "51" but also because it's Parker. Naming it "51" compounds the disappointment since the original 51 is the most emblematic fountain pen of the company Parker used to be - a company that made great pens - and what we wish it could still be.

[maclink]

19 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

I think a big part of the problem is that I don't think anyone likes to see the company (if only in name) that made some of the best pens in the world rest on its laurels (if they are even doing that competently), especially when it seems so obvious and superficial. It's not just because they named it "51" but also because it's Parker. Naming it "51" compounds the disappointment since the original 51 is the most emblematic fountain pen of the company Parker used to be - a company that made great pens - and what we wish it could still be.

Yes, I can see it.  It’s more about disappointment than the pen.  As a result, the pen’s faults are exaggerated and it’s undervalued overall.

[corniche]

47 minutes ago, peroride said:

 

As an old friend once taught me: talk is cheap, put up or shut up as he punched me in the face (just kiddin' 😅)

 

Here are some of my Parker 51 pens and their homages/clones/styles

 

Top to bottom

• Wing Sung 601 Flighter (China)
• Wing Sung 601 double jeweled (China)
• Jinhao 85 (China)
• Farmboy Parker 87😆 aka Parker 51 2020 version (France)
• Parker 51 Demi (United States of America)
• Parker 51 Regular (United States of America)

My curiosity has been sated with the ones from France and China they are good pens and I recommend them for folks looking for a competent budget pen. However, the only ones that occupy my wooden pen case along with other vintage and $$$ are the vintage Parkers ❤️. For me they are just better. YMMV.

 

 

Hello Peroride, et al,

 

Interesting assortment; it's a definite plus seeing them all together, so you don't have to keep going back and forth.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that the O51 isn't the cream of the crop - by a country mile.

 

My main point, (which I've tried to put forth through a large collection of smaller points); is that the NG51 is not the pen of choice for the anti-Christ, but just a good, average, middle of the road pen; which is not that bad of a choice for anyone looking for a good writer, but may not want, or be able to, pay the triple digit prices that a decent original commands, (Now, where the Deluxe model fits in this scheme, I'm not sure - for what you pay for one of those, you'd be way better off just getting a restored original from Teri or Ernesto).

 

Moreover, not everyone is cut out to pick up shabby originals on the cheap and restore them into something reliable and photogenic; so I think the Core model fills a niche for some people; not even myself, per se, but many others. 

 

 

- Sean 

[corniche]

10 minutes ago, maclink said:

Yes, I can see it.  It’s more about disappointment than the pen.  As a result, the pen’s faults are exaggerated and it’s undervalued overall.

 

+1. 

 

- Sean 

[Estycollector]

Had Parker called it an "87" and in the shape of a 51, that would have been rather odd.

 

Parker was most assuredly wanting to take advantage of their past with a nod to the furture with as little cost as possible. Had they done what I suggested and made the pen a modern Lamy type quality and converter capability,  but to appear as a type of 51, I would have had to get one. Just imagine and all blue flighter with black stainless nib and three to choice from. THen call it the Blue Angel Flighter 51. Or NATO Blue Flighter. I'm just having some fun with the possibilities of what could have been done had a wee bit of imagination been applied. 

 

Well, we shall never know. Maybe Lamy will make one or we can wait for Wing Sung to make an all aluminium flgther in everyone's beloved plum...LOL!!

[TheRedBeard]

12 hours ago, Estycollector said:

I have both a 50 year business background and a degree in business. 

 

From that perspective, the Wind Sung 601, that can be had for less than $25, is a better representation of the antique product. Had Parker even had Wing Sung make the new pen and sold for 100 profit, it would be a superior product. This isn't that difficult folks. 

 

...and place "Made in China" line on a cap

 

[TheRedBeard]

12 hours ago, JCC123 said:

First of all, you're mistakenly mixing government policies and officials with private businesses. One has nothing to do with the other. There are plenty of private companies operating in China as private businesses just like there are here. So basically what you're saying is that since the U.S. separated kids from their parents and locked them up in cages like animals, that no one should buy Apple products? We're all old enough here to know that what the government does should be separated from what its citizens and private businesses do. So, unless you can show us that Wing Sung and Jinhao are owned and operated by the Chinese Communist Party members, you have no moral high-ground here.

First of all, FPN is not right place for all those politics discussions

IMO, most people here are happy to discuss fountain pens and enjoy this place as the one free from useless politics discussions...

[TheRedBeard]

12 hours ago, Mike B said:

Hi Sean.

Good points and discussion!

You really should try the Wing Sung 601 (and I speak as yet another entrant into the "I have a business degree" contest!).

It is a very good example of the basic "51" idea with some modern improvements. The ink window is great. The fill system is actually a piston fill designed to act like a vac-fill (no diaphragm, but it will need to have silicon grease applied every couple of years -- supplied -- to keep the seal working properly). The cap does look a little like it is a redesigned clutch approach. And of course it has a very smooth XF nib (at least, mine did).

But there are issues with it, as with the new Parker 51, as with the Jinhao 85. At least two of these pens are not designed to last for more than about a decade at best.

None of them use lucite as their plastic. I think I have read that lucite needed to be machined and was not good for injection machines. So it is costly to work. This presents problems with the traditional "51" closure system -- my old Hero 100 ended up with a crack in the section because the plastic was not strong enough to resist the pressure of its clutch cap. Those of you with older Parker 45s will likely be familiar with the dimples caused by the pressure of the metal sheet springs in its closure system, also. This might be why the manufacturer (Parker/Krazy Glue/Whatever) decided upon a screw closure on the new 51.

The Parker 45 also might offer a clue as to how long the plastic body on the new Parker 51 can last. I've never had the screw area of my mid-1960s era pen give me problems, but admittedly this was plastic on plastic. We are all of us making an awful lot of assumptions on what is going to happen with the 51 metal-plastic join. I think in the end it is going to depend upon the traits of the plastic chosen. I'm interested that Parker is now referring to this as "precious resin." Does this mean that it is even better than the older plastic of the 45s and 61? Or does it maybe mean that we are going to be spending a lot of money to buy the necessary replacement every few years? I am hoping for the former.

And as to China per se. We aren't discussing politics or religion (or even Montblancs), but I think we have to accept that, in this day and age, to boycott China is not much different than to boycott Walmart and just about every other non-food store. For better or worse, we are in an era of international manufacturing and supply chains. China has interesting ideas about patent safety and security. But of course so does the United States (see Disney's Mickey Mouse as an example). 

Have you had a chance to use the new gold-nibbed model any more? I am asking because I appear to enjoy temptation....

 

Mike B

AFAIK, there is a dedicated section on FPN to discuss all that Chinese-made rubbish...

 

[TheRedBeard]

8 hours ago, FarmBoy said:

If Parker would have called this pen the 87 would anyone have cared or even noticed?

No, definitely not

And we even would not have this 55+ page thread here :)

 

[TheRedBeard]

6 hours ago, maclink said:

Yes, I can see it.  It’s more about disappointment than the pen.  As a result, the pen’s faults are exaggerated and it’s undervalued overall.

Yes, you are right on that.

And it is all about names: Parker ... and 51...

[Aysedasi]

23 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

AFAIK, there is a dedicated section on FPN to discuss all that Chinese-made rubbish...

 

 

Trouble is, it isn't all rubbish.  I own a number of Chinese pens that are actually pretty good.  I think the blinkers have become a little too fixed, perhaps?  

[es9]

7 hours ago, maclink said:

It’s more about disappointment than the pen.  As a result, the pen’s faults are exaggerated and it’s undervalued overall.

Perhaps. But Parker brought that on itself. It chose to invoke the 51's name/reputation, so it knew the standard against which the pen would be measured. It invited the comparison. 

[Estycollector]

1 hour ago, Aysedasi said:

 

Trouble is, it isn't all rubbish.  I own a number of Chinese pens that are actually pretty good.  I think the blinkers have become a little too fixed, perhaps?  

I agree. 

 

I've carried the WS 601 Flighter for several months beside an old P 45 fligther BP. Not a scratch on the WS and no loss of gold. Even the plunger is gold. I mean, making the plunger gold, which is rarely seen, was unnecessary, but non the less appreciated. 

[welch]

21 hours ago, TheRedBeard said:

 

It is quite clear to anyone with business/commercial background and expertise that there have been no real investments into R&D and real new product development into Parker line under Gillette and then Newell ownership.

Those few new products launched during 2000-2005 (like Ellipse and P100) were certainly developed well before and held on the company's R&D database.

Sonnet was developed in 1994, and is still exploited under different "dressings"- quite average faceless model...

 

"New" P51 is result of the same low-cost approach:  a few simple tech solutions picked from the shelf, lazy designer's work, poor marketing idea (no strategy at all) and then clumsy marketing itself.

But, as already discussed here, it is normal and understandable approach... 

Some sophisticated customers (minority) are disappointed, but who cares?..

 

I can only repeat what I already said a few times before, Newell "Rubbishmade" is not a Parker Pen Co ... and no one should expect them to act as an advanced pen manufacturer...

 

 

There has been no innovation in the fountain pen since 1960, when Parker perfected the cartridge / converter in the Parker 45. Yes, there have been changes in style, but those changes still result in the same basic fountain pen. Some companies still make the same piston fillers but in different sizes. Others make c/c pens. Some pens have more glitz. Some pens have open nibs.

 

If there has been any R&D, it has been in fountain pen ink -- though pretty much beginning and ending with the Parker Penman inks. Noodlers offers an ink that binds with paper, and many companies offer inks that vary in concentration, but so many inks are, like Penman Sapphire, a surface color with another color that glows from a layer beneath. 

 

But innovation in the pen that delivers this variety of inks?

[es9]

Conid's bulk filler and Edison's draw filler...  I understand that both build upon earlier designs, but I think it's fair to call them "innovations." Also, titanium nibs if you consider a new material to be an "innovation."

[Aysedasi]

1 hour ago, Estycollector said:

I agree. 

 

I've carried the WS 601 Flighter for several months beside an old P 45 fligther BP. Not a scratch on the WS and no loss of gold. Even the plunger is gold. I mean, making the plunger gold, which is rarely seen, was unnecessary, but non the less appreciated. 

 

Exactly.  My 601 with the metal section is a great looking pen and a nice writer that I can just about forgive for having a twiddly little fine nib...... 

[welch]

1 minute ago, es9 said:

Ummm... Conid?

 

What is the innovation? That is, does the Conid change much from the generic fountain pen of 1965, about when Sheaffer gave up the PfM?

[es9]

Edited my post to qualify it.  Taking an older design and enhancing it is, I think, an innovation.  Do we not consider any new method of compressing a latex sac to be an "innovation"?  If we zoom out far enough, there's been no "innovation" since the first pen that attached a nib and feed to a tube that could pull ink via a vacuum and hold it.  

[TheRedBeard]

18 minutes ago, welch said:

 

There has been no innovation in the fountain pen since 1960, when Parker perfected the cartridge / converter in the Parker 45. Yes, there have been changes in style, but those changes still result in the same basic fountain pen. Some companies still make the same piston fillers but in different sizes. Others make c/c pens. Some pens have more glitz. Some pens have open nibs.

 

If there has been any R&D, it has been in fountain pen ink -- though pretty much beginning and ending with the Parker Penman inks. Noodlers offers an ink that binds with paper, and many companies offer inks that vary in concentration, but so many inks are, like Penman Sapphire, a surface color with another color that glows from a layer beneath. 

 

But innovation in the pen that delivers this variety of inks?

Sure, and even Kenneth Parker once said that it was difficult to invent/create something new in fountain pen business :)

However, IMO it is still enough room for innovation and creativity in choice and application of materials for sections, barrels and caps (not nibs though).

And, of course, one can be still creative in exterior design.