Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[JCC123]

Well, Parker patents expired so anyone can use it. If not for the Chinese in making them, no one else would have, even Parker. Now that Parker has wised up they have failed miserably in re-releasing what is supposed to be their birthright.

 

But, I'm not sure what you expect from a pen that costs $10-$20? The new Parker 51 is 5 - 8 times the cost. Do you seriously believe that it will last 5 - 8 times as long? I don't. Especially with the metal cap on shoddy plastic threads. I don't buy a cheap pen expecting it last. In fact, I pretty much only buy expensive pens like Pelikan and Montblanc because of that reason and even those have crapped out on me occasionally.

[lovemy51]

i apologize for my ignorance, but, where -as in country- are these new P"51" made?

[maclink]

1 minute ago, lovemy51 said:

i apologize for my ignorance, but, where -as in country- are these new P"51" made?

They are made in France.

[lovemy51]

2 minutes ago, maclink said:

They are made in France.

Thanx. Does the 51 have the quotations, i.e. "51"?

[JCC123]

42 minutes ago, maclink said:

State-sponsored capitalism and dumping assist, in no small part, in sustaining the Chinese pen prices many currently enjoy.  China has its plan and it's working.  I don't really know what this means in that I don't know what the outcome will be in this world economy and balance of powers, but personally, I will act on my own gut feeling.  Each has to decide for him/herself.  We're seeing in the FP world, a small snapshot of a bigger picture unfolding.

 

With all that said, I disagree with using Chinese pen pricing as a benchmark for Western pen pricing in Western markets.  I think the current P51's, when compared to other pens I've purchased, are not overpriced.  This doesn't mean that I haven't come across better bargains, especially for steel-nibbed pens.  

 

Fountain pens are a relic from the past. I doubt very much that China Inc would be sponsoring it as they're only interested in future industries. So, companies like Wing Sung and Jinhao are only capitalizing on a niche market. 

 

Here in the U.S. they don't even teach penmanship in school anymore and the kids don't even know how to read or write in cursive. It's been happening for at least 20 years.

[Estycollector]

I have both a 50 year business background and a degree in business. 

 

From that perspective, the Wind Sung 601, that can be had for less than $25, is a better representation of the antique product. Had Parker even had Wing Sung make the new pen and sold for 100 profit, it would be a superior product. This isn't that difficult folks. 

 

[corniche]

33 minutes ago, lovemy51 said:

Thanx. Does the 51 have the quotations, i.e. "51"?

 

The cap band reads:

Halo Logo & PARKER

 

 

Reverse:

FRANCE & Q. III  (Date code)

 

 

It's not designated a "51" anywhere on the pen or box. Only the outside cardboard sleeve indicates it's a 51. 

 

 

- Sean 

 

[lovemy51]

1 minute ago, corniche said:

 

The cap band reads:

Halo Logo & PARKER

 

 

Reverse:

FRANCE & Q. III  (Date code)

 

 

- Sean 

 

thank you. being that it's not an aerometric, there is no where to stamp the 51 in quotation, like the vintage ones... it doesn't even appear on the box as i googled it...

[corniche]

12 minutes ago, Estycollector said:

I have both a 50 year business background and a degree in business. 

 

From that perspective, the Wind Sung 601, that can be had for less than $25, is a better representation of the antique product. Had Parker even had Wing Sung make the new pen and sold for 100 profit, it would be a superior product. This isn't that difficult folks. 

 

 

Hi Brother Chuck,

 

I have a business background, too. In fact, I was able to retire at 46 because I had made enough to do it. Albeit, that it didn't last, because I don't like "retirement."

 

But business should not just be dollars and cents. There are also moral issues involved; unfortunately, I'm not able to discuss them here.

 

I must admit, though, you're really pushing the envelope and tempting me into buying one of those things for the sake of comparison; even though I have moral problems doing it. 

 

 

- Sean 

[Estycollector]

6 minutes ago, corniche said:

 

Hi Brother Chuck,

 

I have a business background, too. In fact, I was able to retire at 46 because I had made enough to do it. Albeit, that it didn't last, because I don't like "retirement."

 

But business should not just be dollars and cents. There are also moral issues involved; unfortunately, I'm not able to discuss them here.

 

I must admit, though, you're really pushing the envelope and tempting me into buying one of those things for the sake of comparison; even though I have moral problems doing it. 

 

 

- Sean 

I've been in a position to retire for some time and in better place today, but that's not really the point. I felt I was being challenged and so I responded. 

'

The Wing Sung 601, both plastic and flighter is very close to the original Parker 51 product. So, please consider. bother man. !!

[corniche]

20 minutes ago, lovemy51 said:

thank you. being that it's not an aerometric, there is no where to stamp the 51 in quotation, like the vintage ones... it doesn't even appear on the box as i googled it...

 

You're welcome; although I see no reason why they couldn't have etched "51" on the cap band; IIRC, the later models of the original 51 had "51" etched on the caps, but I do not have any of the "newer," original 51s.

 

 

- Sean 

[corniche]

1 minute ago, Estycollector said:

I've been in a position to retire for some time and in better place today, but that's not really the point. I felt I was being challenged and so I responded. 

'

The Wing Sung 601, both plastic and flighter is very close to the original Parker 51 product. So, please consider. bother man. !!

 

Oh, I see. I missed that; evidently this has nothing to do with me, so I'll gladly withdraw from this aspect of the discussion. 

 

God bless, 

 

Sean 

[JCC123]

9 minutes ago, corniche said:

 

Hi Brother Chuck,

 

I have a business background, too. In fact, I was able to retire at 46 because I had made enough to do it. Albeit, that it didn't last, because I don't like "retirement."

 

But business should not just be dollars and cents. There are also moral issues involved; unfortunately, I'm not able to discuss them here.

 

I must admit, though, you're really pushing the envelope and tempting me into buying one of those things. 

 

 

- Sean 

First of all, you're mistakenly mixing government policies and officials with private businesses. One has nothing to do with the other. There are plenty of private companies operating in China as private businesses just like there are here. So basically what you're saying is that since the U.S. separated kids from their parents and locked them up in cages like animals, that no one should buy Apple products? We're all old enough here to know that what the government does should be separated from what its citizens and private businesses do. So, unless you can show us that Wing Sung and Jinhao are owned and operated by the Chinese Communist Party members, you have no moral high-ground here.

[Mike B]

Hi Sean.

Good points and discussion!

You really should try the Wing Sung 601 (and I speak as yet another entrant into the "I have a business degree" contest!).

It is a very good example of the basic "51" idea with some modern improvements. The ink window is great. The fill system is actually a piston fill designed to act like a vac-fill (no diaphragm, but it will need to have silicon grease applied every couple of years -- supplied -- to keep the seal working properly). The cap does look a little like it is a redesigned clutch approach. And of course it has a very smooth XF nib (at least, mine did).

But there are issues with it, as with the new Parker 51, as with the Jinhao 85. At least two of these pens are not designed to last for more than about a decade at best.

None of them use lucite as their plastic. I think I have read that lucite needed to be machined and was not good for injection machines. So it is costly to work. This presents problems with the traditional "51" closure system -- my old Hero 100 ended up with a crack in the section because the plastic was not strong enough to resist the pressure of its clutch cap. Those of you with older Parker 45s will likely be familiar with the dimples caused by the pressure of the metal sheet springs in its closure system, also. This might be why the manufacturer (Parker/Krazy Glue/Whatever) decided upon a screw closure on the new 51.

The Parker 45 also might offer a clue as to how long the plastic body on the new Parker 51 can last. I've never had the screw area of my mid-1960s era pen give me problems, but admittedly this was plastic on plastic. We are all of us making an awful lot of assumptions on what is going to happen with the 51 metal-plastic join. I think in the end it is going to depend upon the traits of the plastic chosen. I'm interested that Parker is now referring to this as "precious resin." Does this mean that it is even better than the older plastic of the 45s and 61? Or does it maybe mean that we are going to be spending a lot of money to buy the necessary replacement every few years? I am hoping for the former.

And as to China per se. We aren't discussing politics or religion (or even Montblancs), but I think we have to accept that, in this day and age, to boycott China is not much different than to boycott Walmart and just about every other non-food store. For better or worse, we are in an era of international manufacturing and supply chains. China has interesting ideas about patent safety and security. But of course so does the United States (see Disney's Mickey Mouse as an example). 

Have you had a chance to use the new gold-nibbed model any more? I am asking because I appear to enjoy temptation....

 

Mike B

Edited March 13, 2021 by Mike B
Added 3 word to clarify

[corniche]

4 hours ago, JCC123 said:

But, I'm not sure what you expect from a pen that costs $10-$20? The new Parker 51 is 5 - 8 times the cost. Do you seriously believe that it will last 5 - 8 times as long? I don't. Especially with the metal cap on shoddy plastic threads. I don't buy a cheap pen expecting it last.

 

Hi JCC,

 

Well, a Lamy Safari can be had for around $25 and it'll still be writing when I'm dead and buried - and I'm only 52, IIRC. (I stopped tracking my birthdays a long time ago. )

 

And, I expect to get 10-15 years out of my NG51s, (hopefully more); so, yes, I do. Moreover, the plastic to metal threads issue is a red herring to me.

 

There are a lot of pens with that configuration; the Waterman Exclusive, pens from Omas and MB; not to mention many other pens that have a section with metal threads that screw into plastic barrels, such as the Pilot Custom 74 and the Platinum 3776 Centurys, etc., etc. With NO problems; at least none that I've ever had.

 

- Sean 

[corniche]

2 hours ago, Mike B said:

Hi Sean.

Good points and discussion!

You really should try the Wing Sung 601 (and I speak as yet another entrant into the "I have a business degree" contest!).

It is a very good example of the basic "51" idea with some modern improvements. The ink window is great. The fill system is actually a piston fill designed to act like a vac-fill (no diaphragm, but it will need to have silicon grease applied every couple of years -- supplied -- to keep the seal working properly). The cap does look a little like it is a redesigned clutch approach. And of course it has a very smooth XF nib (at least, mine did).

But there are issues with it, as with the new Parker 51, as with the Jinhao 85. At least two of these pens are not designed to last for more than about a decade at best.

None of them use lucite as their plastic. I think I have read that lucite needed to be machined and was not good for injection machines. So it is costly to work. This presents problems with the traditional "51" closure system -- my old Hero 100 ended up with a crack in the section because the plastic was not strong enough to resist the pressure of its clutch cap. Those of you with older Parker 45s will likely be familiar with the dimples caused by the pressure of the metal sheet springs in its closure system, also. This might be why the manufacturer (Parker/Krazy Glue/Whatever) decided upon a screw closure on the new 51.

The Parker 45 also might offer a clue as to how long the plastic body on the new Parker 51 can last. I've never had the screw area of my mid-1960s era pen give me problems, but admittedly this was plastic on plastic. We are all of us making an awful lot of assumptions on what is going to happen with the 51 metal-plastic join. I think in the end it is going to depend upon the traits of the plastic chosen. I'm interested that Parker is now referring to this as "precious resin." Does this mean that it is even better than the older plastic of the 45s and 61? Or does it maybe mean that we are going to be spending a lot of money to buy the necessary replacement every few years? I am hoping for the former.

And as to China per se. We aren't discussing politics or religion (or even Montblancs), but I think we have to accept that, in this day and age, to boycott China is not much different than to boycott Walmart and just about every other non-food store. For better or worse, we are in an era of international manufacturing and supply chains. China has interesting ideas about patent safety and security. But of course so does the United States (see Disney's Mickey Mouse as an example). 

Have you had a chance to use the new gold-nibbed model any more? I am asking because I appear to enjoy temptation....

 

Mike B

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thank you.

 

Yes, I received gold nib version, yesterday, early. I'm still assessing it.

 

- Sean 

 

[FarmBoy]

If Parker would have called this pen the 87 would anyone have cared or even noticed?

[corniche]

19 minutes ago, FarmBoy said:

If Parker would have called this pen the 87 would anyone have cared or even noticed?

 

No. Which is a point I've been laboring to make for the past several weeks.

 

- Sean 

[FarmBoy]

35 minutes ago, corniche said:

 

No. Which is a point I've been laboring to make for the past several weeks.

 

- Sean 

I guess you have got to be blunt about it sometimes. 

[corniche]

4 minutes ago, FarmBoy said:

I guess you have got to be blunt about it sometimes. 

 

Yes.

 

- S.