Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[JCC123]

On 3/11/2021 at 8:14 AM, maclink said:

Well, I got it and had a look.  I'm quite acquainted with the P51's of old and took out the teal coloured one I have for comparison.  I'm sorry that the panoramic images do not properly capture the colour, although the the ones with the nibs further down, do.

 

 

Capped, I had a smile on my face.  The pen looks nice with the teal going well with the gold.  The striped finish of the cap is also nice.  I actually prefer the new clip design and do not think it cheap. The fact that it's stamped is to me, a matter of taste.  The stamped look is more streamlined and I prefer that.

 

 

It looks like you got the dark blue and not the teal?

 

Do you find the fit not as good as the original? I find, for example, the threads to be especially imprecise. This, coupled with what I feel like that the newer plastic seems softer in feel, leads me to believe that the threads will become an issue soon. I'm not expecting it to last more than a few years.

 

Do you find that the new plastic has softer feel than the original?

[peroride]

Got the teal steel in today.

 

Was super excited then got poisoned in comparisons to the  vintage, homages: Jinhao 85 and Wing Sung 601 beside it. 😎Mind you, i knew what I was getting into.

 

TL;DR Marketing wise I think it is a good gift pen for non-FP fanatics who doesn't know the difference between a P51 fountain pen or Jotter ballpoint, think graduation, retirement, anniversary, etc, etc Folks who say instructions? What pen needs instructions; you gotta be kidding me? (this P51 delivered sans instructions) 

 

Plusses: 

• cc filling so reassurance with stubborn tough inks not killing breather tubes or sacs
• its teal; I don't have that color!
• it posts
• looks P51 ish
• relatively inexpensive in the 60-80 USD range
• competent writer with Quink
• la belle en France

Negs/nags

• Posts but slightly back heavy unlike a vintage P51 where the cap posts deeper fitting like a glove probably from the demi body with a regular cap (see below)
• This is a $51 dollar hooded Jotter Core add-on, most likely. Thus the value is in staying delusional with the continuation of the nostalgic vintage P51 reality distortion field. I am delusional 🤪😱
• barrel plastic is heavier by half gram yet feels lighter and cheaper?! maybe for lack of an end hole
• I keep getting mixed up unscrewing the barrel of the vintage or pulling on the modern; need new memory habits
• Is this really 5-8x better than a Chinese homage clone?

Interesting

• writes only marginally better than a Jinhao 85 and on par with the Wing Sung 601 with the vintage feeling better (more cushy/plush) than all the nail moderns. I guess steel does make a difference 🤔
• body is same length as a demi but with a longer cap making the length like the regular 51. An odd bird indeed (see Parker “51” Demi-sized Vacumatic Filler Plain Arrow Clip 1947-1948)

 

Would I buy this pen knowing what I know now?

 

Probably, barely at huge discount to help out a smaller retailer on the last day of the pen show when they threw in a Parker Converter and said "See ya next year!" like I really believed them and knew that to be true.🤣

[maclink]

3 hours ago, JCC123 said:

It looks like you got the dark blue and not the teal?

 

Do you find the fit not as good as the original? I find, for example, the threads to be especially imprecise. This, coupled with what I feel like that the newer plastic seems softer in feel, leads me to believe that the threads will become an issue soon. I'm not expecting it to last more than a few years.

 

Do you find that the new plastic has softer feel than the original?

 

The pens are plum coloured.  It's the camera playing tricks.  The closeups of the sections and nibs show the plum colour.

 

I don't really feel much of a sensation difference in the barrel.  If the barrel feels softer, it's likely because of the coating.  70yr old coating will likely feel different from new coating.

[maclink]

1 hour ago, peroride said:

• barrel plastic is heavier by half gram yet feels lighter and cheaper?! maybe for lack of an end hole

Maybe in your mind?   This is why objective tests are always better.  Thanks for having weighed them.

 

1 hour ago, peroride said:

• body is same length as a demi but with a longer cap making the length like the regular 51. An odd bird indeed (see Parker “51” Demi-sized Vacumatic Filler Plain Arrow Clip 1947-1948)

 

Are you sure the cap is longer.   On my deluxe, the cap is the same size as on the original, BUT, it doesn't post as deeply as the original, leading to the equalisation in posted length.  The new designers probably assumed that all will be using it posted.  The back-weighting is more, but not by much since the pens are the same length when posted. 

[peroride]

1 hour ago, maclink said:

Are you sure the cap is longer.

Yes, the new P51 cap is longer than a vintage Demi cap and about the same size as the regular as you noted 🙂 The added link notes collectors can find caps swapped between a demi and regular as they are interchangeable but not necessarily 'look right'.

 

What I observe with this new P51 is this new design is purposefully made that way: a demi body + regular length cap, hence the idea/guess that this may contribute to the back weighting sensation.

 

In the end, it's all just fun trivia for folks with a vintage regular, demi and this new P51, a different beast altogether 🤓

[TheRedBeard]

12 hours ago, corniche said:

Hi all,

 

I got my Deluxe model early:

 

 

The weights are identical, but the gold cap "feels" heavier. When I first took the cap off (and on); I was royally pis**d because it felt like they used two different sized dies to thread the barrel and cap. But after a few cap removals, it was noticeably smoother; my Core model caps were silky smooth from the start. But it had left a bad taste in my mouth at this price level.

 

The pen is a wet and smooth writer, but appears to need a half a stroke to get started - a modern era pen trait, it seems; none of my O51s have this problem... but, then again, neither do either of my Core models.

 

To be fair, this pen has not been flushed and what you see here is only its second writing sample. So, I have to cut it a little slack and give it a chance for the feed to get saturated and broken in.

 

Well, we'll see how things go. 

 

 

- Sean 

 

Thank you, Sean.

Good to know your first impressions on Deluxe NG51.

It seems to me that gold M nib of Deluxe version produces slightly thicker line?...

[TheRedBeard]

6 hours ago, peroride said:

Got the teal steel in today.

 

Was super excited then got poisoned in comparisons to the  vintage, homages: Jinhao 85 and Wing Sung 601 beside it. 😎Mind you, i knew what I was getting into.

 

TL;DR Marketing wise I think it is a good gift pen for non-FP fanatics who doesn't know the difference between a P51 fountain pen or Jotter ballpoint, think graduation, retirement, anniversary, etc, etc Folks who say instructions? What pen needs instructions; you gotta be kidding me? (this P51 delivered sans instructions) 

 

Plusses: 

• cc filling so reassurance with stubborn tough inks not killing breather tubes or sacs
• its teal; I don't have that color!
• it posts
• looks P51 ish
• relatively inexpensive in the 60-80 USD range
• competent writer with Quink
• la belle en France

Negs/nags

• Posts but slightly back heavy unlike a vintage P51 where the cap posts deeper fitting like a glove probably from the demi body with a regular cap (see below)
• This is a $51 dollar hooded Jotter Core add-on, most likely. Thus the value is in staying delusional with the continuation of the nostalgic vintage P51 reality distortion field. I am delusional 🤪😱
• barrel plastic is heavier by half gram yet feels lighter and cheaper?! maybe for lack of an end hole
• I keep getting mixed up unscrewing the barrel of the vintage or pulling on the modern; need new memory habits
• Is this really 5-8x better than a Chinese homage clone?

Interesting

• writes only marginally better than a Jinhao 85 and on par with the Wing Sung 601 with the vintage feeling better (more cushy/plush) than all the nail moderns. I guess steel does make a difference 🤔
• body is same length as a demi but with a longer cap making the length like the regular 51. An odd bird indeed (see Parker “51” Demi-sized Vacumatic Filler Plain Arrow Clip 1947-1948)

Hi Peroride,

Thank you for pretty detailed first impressions - very useful another opinion  :)

 

6 hours ago, peroride said:

Would I buy this pen knowing what I know now?

 

Probably, barely at huge discount to help out a smaller retailer on the last day of the pen show when they threw in a Parker Converter and said "See ya next year!" like I really believed them and knew that to be true.🤣

 

Good point :)

I think it is what I should do regarding "new" P51 Deluxe version at coming London Pen Shows later this year

 

[Estycollector]

As the old saying goes, "you only get one opportunity to make a good impression". Well, Parker did in 1940. They have rode that impression into the ground I suspect with this latest offering. 

 

I am thinking of a project  managers perspective. They would be given the project and the budget. Perhaps she only had so much and did the best she could. 

 

What if Parker had decided to use a Lamy Safari or Al Star template for the converter? THen find a way to make a modern Lamy type plateform with a reference and respect to the past. We would now have an aluminium or ABS Parker 51 with the opportunity to change out nibs or even that each would come with three nib types. 

 

If Lamy can do it for $20-30, I suspect Parker could have done so as well. It is sad when companies primary consideration is their bottom line. 

[Heinkle]

1 hour ago, Estycollector said:

As the old saying goes, "you only get one opportunity to make a good impression". Well, Parker did in 1940. They have rode that impression into the ground I suspect with this latest offering. 

 

I am thinking of a project  managers perspective. They would be given the project and the budget. Perhaps she only had so much and did the best she could. 

 

What if Parker had decided to use a Lamy Safari or Al Star template for the converter? THen find a way to make a modern Lamy type plateform with a reference and respect to the past. We would now have an aluminium or ABS Parker 51 with the opportunity to change out nibs or even that each would come with three nib types. 

 

If Lamy can do it for $20-30, I suspect Parker could have done so as well. It is sad when companies primary consideration is their bottom line. 

You can sweat an asset only so long without significant re-investment in the business. As I’ve posted elsewhere, this Parker Board tentatively and inexpensively iterates the same designs/nibs. The Sonnet is the classic example of a pauper dressed as a prince, but the new 51 is even more conspicuous in this category. Still, more vision than can be said for Waterman, I suppose.

[JCC123]

8 hours ago, peroride said:

barrel plastic is heavier by half gram yet feels lighter and cheaper?! maybe for lack of an end hole

When you said cheaper, cheaper as compared to what? The original vintage, the Chinese Jinhao or Wing Sung? or all of them?

[TheRedBeard]

1 hour ago, Heinkle said:

You can sweat an asset only so long without significant re-investment in the business. As I’ve posted elsewhere, this Parker Board tentatively and inexpensively iterates the same designs/nibs. The Sonnet is the classic example of a pauper dressed as a prince, but the new 51 is even more conspicuous in this category. Still, more vision than can be said for Waterman, I suppose.

 

It is quite clear to anyone with business/commercial background and expertise that there have been no real investments into R&D and real new product development into Parker line under Gillette and then Newell ownership.

Those few new products launched during 2000-2005 (like Ellipse and P100) were certainly developed well before and held on the company's R&D database.

Sonnet was developed in 1994, and is still exploited under different "dressings"- quite average faceless model...

 

"New" P51 is result of the same low-cost approach:  a few simple tech solutions picked from the shelf, lazy designer's work, poor marketing idea (no strategy at all) and then clumsy marketing itself.

But, as already discussed here, it is normal and understandable approach... 

Some sophisticated customers (minority) are disappointed, but who cares?..

 

I can only repeat what I already said a few times before, Newell "Rubbishmade" is not a Parker Pen Co ... and no one should expect them to act as an advanced pen manufacturer...

 

[TheRedBeard]

... and it is a bitter shame that Parker-named products are now quite seriously compared by some people with Chinese-made rubbish...

... and it is great that George and Kenneth Parkers are no longer here  and cannot see all this shame...

 

[Heinkle]

20 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

... and it is a bitter shame that Parker-named products are now quite seriously compared by some people with Chinese-made rubbish...

... and it is great that George and Kenneth Parkers are no longer here  and cannot see all this shame...

 

precisely - you can only cash in on past reputation for so long. Just think where the brand will be in a decade, I.e. a generation after the Newell take-over

[corniche]

1 hour ago, TheRedBeard said:

 

It is quite clear to anyone with business/commercial background and expertise that there have been no real investments into R&D and real new product development into Parker line under Gillette and then Newell ownership.

Those few new products launched during 2000-2005 (like Ellipse and P100) were certainly developed well before and held on the company's R&D database.

Sonnet was developed in 1994, and is still exploited under different "dressings"- quite average faceless model...

 

"New" P51 is result of the same low-cost approach:  a few simple tech solutions picked from the shelf, lazy designer's work, poor marketing idea (no strategy at all) and then clumsy marketing itself.

But, as already discussed here, it is normal and understandable approach... 

Some sophisticated customers (minority) are disappointed, but who cares?..

 

I can only repeat what I already said a few times before, Newell "Rubbishmade" is not a Parker Pen Co ... and no one should expect them to act as an advanced pen manufacturer...

 

 

+1. Very well said, Red. 👍 I try to be optimistic and make the best of the current situation, but this is all too, true.

 

- Sean 

[JCC123]

3 hours ago, TheRedBeard said:

... and it is a bitter shame that Parker-named products are now quite seriously compared by some people with Chinese-made rubbish...

... and it is great that George and Kenneth Parkers are no longer here  and cannot see all this shame...

 

Hey now, let's try to be more objective here. The Chinese made pens are really fantastically well made for the price, a great value! They never represented themselves to be anything more. That's more that what I can say about Newell Parker. The new Parker 51 should priced around $35.

 

The sad part of all of this is that no one at Parker seems to be Parker enthusiasts. If they were, they would have never released this abomination. Injection molded plastic can be formed into any shape and size. There was literally no additional cost for them to have made an exact copy of the original, adding the new converter/cartridge system. That would have the been the best of both worlds but they didn't because no one at Parker with any decision making authority is an enthusiast. 

 

The real irony here is that the Chinese manufacturers tried to copy Parker but at a lower price point and have succeeded and now Parker, seeing their success, tries to copy the Chinese but failed.

[TheRedBeard]

15 minutes ago, JCC123 said:

Hey now, let's try to be more objective here. The Chinese made pens are really fantastically well made for the price, a great value! They never represented themselves to be anything more. That's more that what I can say about Newell Parker. The new Parker 51 should priced around $35.

It is not about objectivity...

If you want to know my position about Chinese pen manufacturers, whom I consider just petty lousy thieves, please, read this thread starting from Page 16 onwards...

Of course, all that is only my personal position and I never ever judge people who purchase Chinese rubbish...

 

15 minutes ago, JCC123 said:

 

The sad part of all of this is that no one at Parker seems to be Parker enthusiasts. If they were, they would have never released this abomination. Injection molded plastic can be formed into any shape and size. There was literally no additional cost for them to have made an exact copy of the original, adding the new converter/cartridge system. That would have the been the best of both worlds but they didn't because no one at Parker with any decision making authority is an enthusiast. 

 

The real irony here is that the Chinese manufacturers tried to copy Parker but at a lower price point and have succeeded and now Parker, seeing their success, tries to copy the Chinese but failed.

I agree with you on that. But to be correct: there are no Parker enthusiasts at Newell.... Parker Pen Co does no longer exist...

 

[lovemy51]

[lovemy51]

26 minutes ago, JCC123 said:

The new Parker 51 should priced around $35.

 

 

i have to agree here... but, the deluxe can go higher, of course

[corniche]

1 hour ago, JCC123 said:

Hey now, let's try to be more objective here. The Chinese made pens are really fantastically well made for the price, a great value! They never represented themselves to be anything more. That's more that what I can say about Newell Parker. The new Parker 51 should priced around $35.

 

The sad part of all of this is that no one at Parker seems to be Parker enthusiasts. If they were, they would have never released this abomination. Injection molded plastic can be formed into any shape and size. There was literally no additional cost for them to have made an exact copy of the original, adding the new converter/cartridge system. That would have the been the best of both worlds but they didn't because no one at Parker with any decision making authority is an enthusiast. 

 

The real irony here is that the Chinese manufacturers tried to copy Parker but at a lower price point and have succeeded and now Parker, seeing their success, tries to copy the Chinese but failed.

 

Hi JCC, et al,

 

I cannot agree. While I tend to avoid Chinese brands of ALL types for religious and political reasons I cannot discuss here, (not to mention all of their intellectual property rights crimes); I have been known to succumb to their siren calls; or had them given to me.

 

And I've never got more than 2 or 3 years out of a Chinese branded pen. Something always seem to crack, corrode, fall off or just plain fail - and I pamper my pens. I've had Jinhao bodies just crack and splinter to pieces; I've had inner cap seals in Picasso and Jinhao pens fail; I've had a few that just wouldn't write from the jump. 

 

But even their best efforts, like the Delike Celluloid and another one, who's name is escaping me, may give great service for a while, but then they eventually fail.

 

Meanwhile, I have modern Parkers that are 5, 10, 15 years old - and still in rotation. 

 

I'm not happy with what has happened to Parker in the past 20 years or so, but to say the Chinese brands are superior did give me a good laugh; so, I guess I can thank you for that.

 

The new 51 may only be a shadow of its former self, but I'm sure I'll get a lot more than 2 years of service out of it and it is worth more than $35.

 

- Sean 

[maclink]

1 hour ago, JCC123 said:

The Chinese made pens are really fantastically well made for the price, a great value! They never represented themselves to be anything more.

State-sponsored capitalism and dumping assist, in no small part, in sustaining the Chinese pen prices many currently enjoy.  China has its plan and it's working.  I don't really know what this means in that I don't know what the outcome will be in this world economy and balance of powers, but personally, I will act on my own gut feeling.  Each has to decide for him/herself.  We're seeing in the FP world, a small snapshot of a bigger picture unfolding.

 

With all that said, I disagree with using Chinese pen pricing as a benchmark for Western pen pricing in Western markets.  I think the current P51's, when compared to other pens I've purchased, are not overpriced.  This doesn't mean that I haven't come across better bargains, especially for steel-nibbed pens.  

 

I'm a stickler for detail and was just now writing with the deluxe and felt it would be so much better if they had worked on the nib/section to ensure the nib was snug with the section, I'd actually like the pen a lot.  It writes very well and that's the first and foremost quality I expect in a pen.