Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[inkstainedruth]

3 hours ago, hari317 said:

I watched a video by appelboom showing the new 51s. The feeder and nib look very much like the ones found on the vector. Can anyone confirm? 

If that's the case, I'll just spend the money they're asking and buy a bunch more older model Vectors.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Paganini]

4 hours ago, hari317 said:

I watched a video by appelboom showing the new 51s. The feeder and nib look very much like the ones found on the vector. Can anyone confirm? 

 

I think so too. The end of the feed looks exactly like the one in my Urban. 

[Audog]

I know that this may be taken wrong, but frankly, I don't care if parts of the "new" 51 are made in China, or anywhere else for that matter. I feel it will be a nice addition to the collection, original 51's, re-issue early 2000's 51's, and now "new" 51's. If it writes nicely, so much the better. We are in a global economy, where parts and pieces are made all over the Planet. Parker hasn't been "REAL" Parker since it left Janesville, WI so it's a mute point.

[Estycollector]

I doubt we'd be discussing if the new Parker cost $20. 

[ZeroDukE]

9 minutes ago, Audog said:

I know that this may be taken wrong, but frankly, I don't care if parts of the "new" 51 are made in China, or anywhere else for that matter. I feel it will be a nice addition to the collection, original 51's, re-issue early 2000's 51's, and now "new" 51's. If it writes nicely, so much the better. We are in a global economy, where parts and pieces are made all over the Planet. Parker hasn't been "REAL" Parker since it left Janesville, WI so it's a mute point.

I do agree.

[FarmBoy]

4 hours ago, Estycollector said:

I doubt we'd be discussing if the new Parker cost $20. 

It would certainly be worthwhile to have a 25 page discussion of a real "51".

[crescentfiller]

25 minutes ago, FarmBoy said:

It would certainly be worthwhile to have a 25 page discussion of a real "51".

 

 

What? And miss out on this ongoing, erudite discourse?

[FarmBoy]

31 minutes ago, crescentfiller said:

 

 

What? And miss out on this ongoing, erudite discourse?

At this point I'd settle for a 2 page discussion of vintage Duofolds.

[peroride]

14 hours ago, hari317 said:

 feeder and nib look very much like the ones found on the vector. Can anyone confirm? 

Thank you @hari317You're right!

 

Gosh 😱 I just took a look at the Vector and it is easy to imagine an aerodynamic hood masking the Vector nib to look exactly like the new P51. Just when I thought the pen has not been dissected enough in this thread, we have another spin! Different country?

Ebay has entire Vector nib units at 10 for $35 USD from India which was a listed Parker Newell manufacturer (12 million from Luxor at Noida) So maybe this is a global venture not of China and France, but France and India.

 

@inkstainedruth is onto something with getting a bunch of old Vectors: big value, same writing quality. If one wants to prop up the look of the full P51 cosmetic, a small batch of 3-D printed hoods and barrels plus salvaging Wing Sung caps would do the trick 🤓

 

I doubt it would be more than $20 a pen though 🤔

 

Update: maybe Parker can update the steel to gold plated if this nib source guess holds...

 

 

[TheRedBeard]

12 hours ago, Audog said:

Parker hasn't been "REAL" Parker since it left Janesville, WI so it's a mute point.

In my humble opinion, REAL Parker ended in 2010 after closing down a factory in Newhaven...

[TheRedBeard]

6 hours ago, peroride said:

Thank you @hari317You're right!

 

Gosh 😱 I just took a look at the Vector and it is easy to imagine an aerodynamic hood masking the Vector nib to look exactly like the new P51. Just when I thought the pen has not been dissected enough in this thread, we have another spin! Different country?

Ebay has entire Vector nib units at 10 for $35 USD from India which was a listed Parker Newell manufacturer (12 million from Luxor at Noida) So maybe this is a global venture not of China and France, but France and India.

 

@inkstainedruth is onto something with getting a bunch of old Vectors: big value, same writing quality. If one wants to prop up the look of the full P51 cosmetic, a small batch of 3-D printed hoods and barrels plus salvaging Wing Sung caps would do the trick 🤓

 

I doubt it would be more than $20 a pen though 🤔

 

Update: maybe Parker can update the steel to gold plated if this nib source guess holds...

 

 

 

If it proves to be true (using Vector parts or other cheap stuff) once we see a real “new” P51 2021 and have a chance to examine it, then it means Newell obviously decided to play an old trick already played by Parker in 1987/88 when Parker 88 (then Rialto) was introduced.

Many experts immediately dubbed P88 as “fancy-dressed” Vector that time

By the way, P88/Rialto was very nice and not bad pen and its sales were not bad either (I still have got a few and use them occasionally).

 

Moreover, such an approach is well-known and pretty old, and it reminds me an embarrassing scandal Jaguar faced many years ago (under Ford ownership) when they quietly enjoyed using many Ford parts for their X-type model until gullible customers, who bought “real” Jaguar X-type and proudly drove it, found out that they actually bought a “fancy-dressed“ Ford Mondeo but at the price of Jaguar

(The similar trick was also unsuccessfully exercised by Porsche in early 90s but without a loud scandal).

 

However, Newell “Rubbishmade” is not Jaguar… so, there is no risk for them at all…

 

[WJM]

41 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

In my humble opinion, REAL Parker ended in 2010 after closing down a factory in Newhaven...

 

Define real Parker. Or real in general.

 

Were Merz & Krell Pelikans real Pelikans?

 

 

[TheRedBeard]

9 minutes ago, WJM said:

 

Define real Parker. Or real in general.

 

Were Merz & Krell Pelikans real Pelikans?

 

 

For me Real Parkers are ones designed and manufactured under Parker family or in line with its legacy. That is why I consider Newhaven factory is a second genuine Parker location, and all Parkers labelled "Made in England" or "Made in UK" are real ones for me.

 

I can't make any opinions on Pelikan pens as I do not use them and have no sufficient relevant knowledge about this manufacturer.

[WJM]

It isn't really about pens themselves, but rather about the idea of what's "real" for a particular manufacturer.

 

If a company "X" closes its previous factory and opens a new one in another country (let's say, China), are the new "X" products real "X"? How about if the company is taken over by new owners? How about if the previous owners are still in the company but the new owners got half of the shares? What if they got the majority of the shares? Where's the line of something being not real "X" anymore, despite being legally allowed to be "X"?

 

Is a modern Volkswagen car a real Volkswagen if the company owners aren't Nazis? 

 

As for Pelikan - in 1970s a company called "Merz&Krell" manufactured two previously discontinued Pelikan models under Pelikan's license - 120 and 400NN. 

 

Interestingly, the same company later changed its name to "Senator" and released several Pelikan knock-offs under that brand. 

 

 

 

[Estycollector]

I stopped collecting Esterbrooks after 1955. For me, it is not what is real or not, but I do not prefer the later changes to the brand . In the same way, I only want early 51's, but that does not mean the aerometic isn't a real 51, its just my preference. I do however, prefer the aerometric 21's.  Original is important to me as a collector and user, but others have their own preference which is wonderful. 

[TheRedBeard]

7 minutes ago, WJM said:

It isn't really about pens themselves, but rather about the idea of what's "real" for a particular manufacturer.

 

If a company "X" closes its previous factory and opens a new one in another country (let's say, China), are the new "X" products real "X"? How about if the company is taken over by new owners? How about if the previous owners are still in the company but the new owners got half of the shares? What if they got the majority of the shares? Where's the line of something being not real "X" anymore, despite being legally allowed to be "X"?

 

As for Pelikan - in 1970s a company called "Merz&Krell" manufactured two previously discontinued Pelikan models under Pelikan's license - 120 and 400NN. 

 

Interestingly, the same company later changed its name to "Senator" and released several Pelikan knock-offs under that brand. 

 

I've had no intention to generalise on term "Real"

I just mentioned and defined it in a very narrow context of my attitude to Parker pens...

 

All your remarks and questions are quite correct.

But there are also some pretty irrational things like "spirit", "soul" or "feelings" about any particular manufacturer and its products which are difficult to define...

 

 

 

 

[TheRedBeard]

8 minutes ago, Estycollector said:

...  Original is important to me as a collector and user, but others have their own preference which is wonderful. 

Rightly said, absolutely agree.

Moreover, that is more important for collectors, while mere users normally have other criteria/priorities when making their choice.

[WJM]

35 minutes ago, TheRedBeard said:

But there are also some pretty irrational things like "spirit", "soul" or "feelings" about any particular manufacturer and its products which are difficult to define...

 

That's true.

 

Basically I think it's understandable to say that I don't like 2002 SE Parker 51 because it's a c/c and doesn't have a collector and a tubular nib (it's an example, not opinion - I don't have the pen), but the claim that it's not a real Parker 51 is rather debatable. I mean, it's really for the company to decide what it is, not for us. 

 

The Wing Sung 601 was originally a Parker 51 clone and that was obvious to everybody. But then they released a version which is identical in almost everything, except it has an open nib - which is of course totally contrary to the very idea of 51 or its clone. So is this version a real Wing Sung 601? In any case - is this a real Wing Sung at all, because as far as I know the original Wing Sung brand ceased to exist decades ago and now several different manufacturers use that name. 

 

To give another example: it is roughly clear for everbody that modern Conklin pens have nothing to do with the historical Conklin brand. Some other company (Yafa) just bought the rights to the name and uses it for marketing. 

 

But the idea that the modern Conklin Duragraph is not a real Conklin Duragraph gets confusing when you realize that the real Conklin Duragraph... doesn't exist. I've only ever seen historical poster ads of the vintage Duragraph (looks nothing like the modern one) but I've never came across even a photo of the actual pen. The names Conklin and Duragraph are nowadays associated much more with the present day Conklin than the historical one, which just got mostly forgotten. 

 

So now which one is the real Conklin?

 

Interesting for consideration, however useless. 

 

[TheRedBeard]

15 minutes ago, WJM said:

 

That's true.

Basically I think it's understandable to say that I don't like 2002 SE Parker 51 because it's a c/c and doesn't have a collector and a tubular nib (it's an example, not opinion - I don't have the pen), but the claim that it's not a real Parker 51 is rather debatable. I mean, it's really for the company to decide what it is, not for us. 

.................

 

 

I see, but it is a different aspect and angle of the matter...

I've been talking exactly about Customer's attitude and how a Customer (and more importantly for our particular case, Collector) defines what product is "real" for himself...

 

[Paganini]

21 minutes ago, WJM said:

The Wing Sung 601 was originally a Parker 51 clone and that was obvious to everybody. But then they released a version which is identical in almost everything, except it has an open nib - which is of course totally contrary to the very idea of 51 or its clone. So is this version a real Wing Sung 601? In any case - is this a real Wing Sung at all, because as far as I know the original Wing Sung brand ceased to exist decades ago and now several different manufacturers use that name. 

 

Is that a *real* Parker 51 clone?

 

(Among other things, generally regarded as improvements over the original design, 601s have an ink window, and, more recent versions, the vacumatic diaphragm filling system was upgraded to a what Chris Rapp calls a "piston draw" system.)

 

Before they revamped the design a few years ago, most of the lower-end Parker pens (Beta, Jotter, Vector, IM, Urban) were the "same pen" in the sense they they used the same internal hardware. Nibs feeds and converters were all freely swappable among them. The new P51 seems to be in that family. I suppose the gold nib drives the price up a bit, but it's awfully hard to come up with reasons to spend $200-$300 on this pen when you can get the same aesthetic for $8 from the Jinhao 85, or the same writing experience from an old Vector for $20.