Parker 51 Comeback 2020?

[Mercian]

  On 12/5/2020 at 7:34 PM, OCArt said:

A member of Fountain Pens Oceania posted this photo of the new Parker 51s. The photo was supposedly taken inside a Australian store.

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Hmm.

I could well be wrong, but that photo makes the plastic of the ‘hood’ over the nib look ‘flimsy’ to my eye. I suppose that it may only be a reflection, but look at how much light seems to be showing through the tip of the red pen’s hood.

 

The shape of the hood/grip-section also seems to be different to what I was expecting, or to be a little ‘strange’ to me. But then of course that may only be because I am ‘used to’ - and therefore expecting to see - the same shape as the hood/grip-section of the two 1950s aerometric “51”s that I own 🤷‍♂️

 

Thank you for sharing the photo 👍

[inkstainedruth]

  On 10/30/2020 at 12:58 PM, shostakovich said:

The problem with the Parker 51's is that in my opinion they are flawed pens. For a start they need a decent filling system that also holds a good amount of ink. Then the nib is not exactly great. Quite nice (I have one from about 1956). But why reproduce an old brand when pens generally have advanced so much? If they produced a new (and perhaps improved) Parker 51 how would it compare to say a modern Pelikan M400? If the P51 was priced in the £190 area I would buy the Pelikan. If the P51 was priced at about £80 I "might" consider it, if it was worth it. Otherwise, forget it.

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I'm not sure what your definition of a "decent filling system" is.  Because the Aerometric model 51s DO hold "a good amount of ink".  The 51 Vacs, while more likely to be in need of restoration than the Aeros, do -- when working properly -- hold a LOT of ink.  And if you get one with an EF nib, like one of my 51Vacs, you can do a great deal of writing on a single fill.  And that pen -- even with repairs, and RonZ opening up the tines a bit because it was scratchy, didn't cost anything like your 80£ price point; more like under 60£.  NONE of mine -- Aeros OR 51 Vacs -- cost 80£ or more except for the English-made Navy Gray Aero, and I was bidding on it at an auction at pen show mostly for the OB nib.  My cost, *including* the buyer's premium, ended up being just a bit over your 80£ price (I checked on a currency converter website just now.  Okay, they might not hold as much ink as a piston pen like an M400, but that's sort of like comparing apples to oranges.  And that Forest Green Aero I talked about earlier?  I paid a whopping $2 US for it at that estate sale.  And then another twenty bucks to have the times on that nib opened up a bit (again, it was an EF nib).  The other 51s?  Mostly F and M nibs (the M nib on my 1949 Plum Demi is an M and really stellar -- amazingly smooth for a pen that's been kicking around for over 70 years).  

And I think you may have missed my point.  I'm NOT looking at buying one of the "re-issued" 51s because, IMO, other than Parker Vectors (which are not bad if you don't mind a skinny, student-grade pen with a limited range of nib widths, especially the UK production ones) modern Parkers are mostly junk.  Because why would I?  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Estycollector]

For me the "aerometric" system is not superior to the vaccumatic system in my 1942 51's based on my NOS Parker 21.  I will allow they are probably more durable. 

[inkstainedruth]

  On 12/5/2020 at 7:34 PM, OCArt said:

A member of Fountain Pens Oceania posted this photo of the new Parker 51s. The photo was supposedly taken inside a Australian store.

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Well, I must say that what I presume is the new "Plum" is a nice looking color.  But still don't want one.  Now if I could find a full-size vintage Plummer that doesn't cost an arm and another leg and the other arm, I might consider it.  But since I've got the Plum Demi, I'm in no actual hurry.

I would be interested in what the bodies (barrels and hoods are made of -- especially after I had a Parker 61 develop lots of cracks in the hood .  Of course I also got a crack in my less than a year old Pelikan M600 Violet and White.  Which cost WAY more -- more than double the price of the Navy Gray Aero with the OB nib --than ANY of my 51s did (even though I got a deal on it on eBay when I got it last February).  So it's a case of YMMV.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[shostakovich]

  On 12/5/2020 at 11:59 PM, inkstainedruth said:

I'm not sure what your definition of a "decent filling system" is.  Because the Aerometric model 51s DO hold "a good amount of ink".  The 51 Vacs, while more likely to be in need of restoration than the Aeros, do -- when working properly -- hold a LOT of ink.  And if you get one with an EF nib, like one of my 51Vacs, you can do a great deal of writing on a single fill.  And that pen -- even with repairs, and RonZ opening up the tines a bit because it was scratchy, didn't cost anything like your 80£ price point; more like under 60£.  NONE of mine -- Aeros OR 51 Vacs -- cost 80£ or more except for the English-made Navy Gray Aero, and I was bidding on it at an auction at pen show mostly for the OB nib.  My cost, *including* the buyer's premium, ended up being just a bit over your 80£ price (I checked on a currency converter website just now.  Okay, they might not hold as much ink as a piston pen like an M400, but that's sort of like comparing apples to oranges.  And that Forest Green Aero I talked about earlier?  I paid a whopping $2 US for it at that estate sale.  And then another twenty bucks to have the times on that nib opened up a bit (again, it was an EF nib).  The other 51s?  Mostly F and M nibs (the M nib on my 1949 Plum Demi is an M and really stellar -- amazingly smooth for a pen that's been kicking around for over 70 years).  

And I think you may have missed my point.  I'm NOT looking at buying one of the "re-issued" 51s because, IMO, other than Parker Vectors (which are not bad if you don't mind a skinny, student-grade pen with a limited range of nib widths, especially the UK production ones) modern Parkers are mostly junk.  Because why would I?  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

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It'a probably just that my P51 seems to not hold that much ink (it's 1956 vintage). The nib is pretty good but not quite like other modern pens I have. So I don't disagree - but I have certain pens that I use all the time, like Pelikans and a Waterman Preface - none of which are vintage, unless you call a 33 year old M200 "vintage." My real vintage pens seem to stay in a box and rarely come out. Conway Stewart and P51 do occasionally though - about once a year.

 

I think P51's do seem to have a lot of nostalgia attached to them, and certainly mine does. However, i would also agree that I would probably not seriously consider a new modern version of the P51 - but one can hardly saye "never."

Edited December 6, 2020 by shostakovich
Additional info, having lost my first attempt at an answer.

[Jamie Elsdon]

Hi, im new here.

For me the parker 51 is an excellent stepping stone from cheaper pens into higher quality pens mainly because of the price. I often recomend them to people as a first pen with a gold nib, and they also have the advantage of being able to be held at any point along the pen so anyone should be able to enjoy the ergonomics of them. I currently have 2 Parker 51s, although i did have 5 at one point and i still consider them to be my favorite pen. all of mine i brought for less than £40 each. I cant see parker making these new 51s cost any less than sonnets, (more likely they will cost somewhere from £100 through to about the same as the duofold centennial) which would put it in competition with the likes of Lamy 2000s and platinum 3776s. If parker just made any one of the vintage 51s with no changes i would probably get a few but looking at the other pens parker currently produces i cant see that happening. Making them Cartrige/Converter would ruin them for me. The one problem that all of Parkers hooded pens had is that the hoods were not quite perfectly alligned with the nibs on all pens, which means the nibs often end up being used at an oblique angle, pushing the tines out of allignment. Considering parkers current build quality and QC i cant see them fixing this so i expect that these new 51s would probably be nothing more than an inconviniet red herring when looking "in the wild" for vintage 51s. The parker 51s also have an excellent nib tip shape for writing at any angle which gives many of them buttery smooth nibs (the two Broad ones i have currently are both some of the best nibs i have ever tried) but modern parker nibs seem to be lacking good nib grinding (at least on the cheaper pens, i have not tried many of their more expensive modern pens) the tipping left as just a blob on all the parker vectors i have, i dont know if this is intended to be more like a lamy A nib but they are without a doubt considerably less smooth.

[Estycollector]

The previous post has produced some curiousity. What is the need for a higher quality pen unless your writing a book or where a pen is used for hours? Even then, what makes a $500 pen better given the variability of experience with the same pen? 

 

My opinion only, If there is justification for a $500 pen it is for the pure joy of the purchasers and has nothing to do with producing better quality writing. 

 

For the use of most people I suspect, having a pen that performs when needed and that performs suitable for the user, that's all that truly important. 

[linkoiram]

What gets me is that the nib is much more like a parker 45 and the screw cap makes the pen have a distinctly un-51 like appearance. At that point why not just get a wing sung 601? The converter is a nice trade off that any parker 51 reimagining should have imo, it is a direct improvement to me, but all the other changes are downgrades in every way.

[Mercian]

  On 12/9/2020 at 10:34 PM, Estycollector said:

The previous post has produced some curiousity. What is the need for a higher quality pen unless your writing a book or where a pen is used for hours? Even then, what makes a $500 pen better given the variability of experience with the same pen? 

 

My opinion only, If there is justification for a $500 pen it is for the pure joy of the purchasers and has nothing to do with producing better quality writing. 

 

For the use of most people I suspect, having a pen that performs when needed and that performs suitable for the user, that's all that truly important. 

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I agree with your assertions about what’s important, totally.

 

I own mostly ‘inexpensive’ pens - low-end modern Parkers, some LAMY Safaris & a Vista, and two Pelikanos - but I also own two vintage aerometric “51”s, a Pelikan M205, and two ‘fancy’ pens - an M805, and a LAMY 2000, so will try to answer your question about expensive pens.

 

The “51”s were designed to write reliably all day long, and to not dry-out. They do that brilliantly, and their light weight serves that purpose well. They were the flagship pen for ‘Executives’ in the pre-ballpoint, pre-PC era. They aren’t flashy at all, so make for brilliant pens for use at work. If you produce one in a meeting nobody is going to think that you’re trying to ‘show-off’ at all. It’s just a really great writing tool - albeit a bit of a pain to clean out completely.

The M205 is a lightweight pen with a high ink capacity and a slightly springy steel nib (as opposed to the ‘nails’ on my Parkers and Safaris). So, one can write with it all day, and also safely get a nice bit of line-variation out of its nib (I can’t, but that’s because I’m a ham-fisted klutz, which isn’t the pen’s fault). It’s also got a non-‘flashy’ design - black with chrome-coloured accents and a stainless steel nib. And cleaning it is really, really easy, because the nib & feed unit just unscrews from the body. Another great business tool.

 

My gold-nibbed ‘fancy’ modern pens are slightly different beasts.

The M805 has a nib that is very stiff, and which is also absolutely beautiful to look at (it is two-tone gold/rhodium, with fine scrollwork engraved upon it). The pen, too, is a thing of beauty with really high build quality.

It is, as you say, intended to be a ‘luxury’ item, whose owner can revel in its beauty and ‘specialness’.
I suppose that one could use it to try to ‘show-off’ in meetings, but then a Montblanc would be better for that purpose. But it is certainly very ‘classy’ and has a certain amount of cachet.
Of course it also writes beautifully, and it is still light enough that one could use it all day long.
The main difference in feel-of-writing over one of my much-less-expensive pens with a steel nib is that it is far wetter. It lays down far more ink. This ‘profligacy’ with ink makes it very smooth to use, and also adds to the sense of ‘luxury’.

 

The LAMY 2000 is another pen that has an internal piston-fill mechanism and a gold nib. But it isn’t designed to be a ‘luxury’ item. Its gold nib is far wetter than the steel Z50 nibs on my Safaris & Vista, but its USP is its highly-ergonomic un-‘flashy’ design & its absolutely superb machining & manufacturing tolerances. The material from which it is made - Makrolon - also feels weirdly pleasant to hold. The brushed surface means that the feel of it reminds me rather of balsa wood that has been painted black.

 

Why does it cost so much more than the less-expensive LAMY pens that I own - and why are people still willing to keep on paying that higher price when its subdued design means that it isn’t really a ‘luxury’ or ‘blingy’ pen?

My answer to that is that one should think of it as an Industrial Tool for the task of writing. An ergonomically-designed and supremely-well-manufactured piece of German Precision Engineering.

 

My M205 is really well-built and it is very nice to use (if its size suits your hand). It feels ‘better’ than my low-end Parkers and my Safaris. But my “51”s and my 2000 all also feel as though they have been built to last for at least my lifetime. They also fit well in almost everybody’s hands, and are light enough to use in comfort all day. They are the BMW 5-series or Mercedes E-class of pens, and they also have the dependability of a Toyota Hilux.

My M805 is just as well-built and just as ‘solid’-feeling as my “51”s and my 2000, but it is also a ‘luxury’ item. So, it’s more like a Mercedes S-class with Toyota Hilux dependability.

 

I would say that my Safaris & my modern low-end Parkers can be thought of as akin to tools that are designed for the ‘home user’, whereas my “51”s and 2000 and M805 are more akin to the industrial tools that a professional would buy. They will work well, and they will last for much longer.

 

Do they improve my handwriting? No! Of course not!

Do I still use my Safaris & Vectors, Frontiers, and Urbans? Yes! Especially in places where I wouldn’t want to risk a Pelikan Souverän or LAMY 2000, or a “51”,  but also for journalling.

 

My two Pelikan piston-fillers and my “51”s and my 2000 all feel ‘better’ than my low-end Parkers and my Safaris. This may be in part because my ‘disposable income’ is very low and so I had to consider each of their purchases very carefully before buying them - they were ‘treats’ that I bought for myself - but I do also think that they are objectively better-made than my less-expensive pens.

[PithyProlix]

  On 10/30/2020 at 8:46 PM, Mercian said:

IIRC the intended price for the relaunched 51 with the c/c fill & screw cap was around €120 for the models that have steel nibs & caps, and €230 for the ones with gold nibs & caps

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For me, I'm thinking 'What's the point?' It's probably a fair price but I would prefer to use the same money on a vintage one that writes well. My > 60 year old vintage P51's are wonderful writers that are my most frequently used pens, they have never needed professional servicing (I can be fairly confident about that since they were my father's. And he was a pharmacist back in the day and used them a lot.), and they are still going strong. I understand that some people want a nice shiny new pen but, to me, a good vintage P51 is so much more cool, while still being eminently usable and reliable (based on my experience). And if I were looking for something new around that price point I would probably be looking at a Lamy 2000, a nice Pilot - something along those lines - but not a Parker. 

[Beechwood]

  On 12/5/2020 at 11:59 PM, inkstainedruth said:

I'm not sure what your definition of a "decent filling system" is.  Because the Aerometric model 51s DO hold "a good amount of ink".  The 51 Vacs, while more likely to be in need of restoration than the Aeros, do -- when working properly -- hold a LOT of ink.  And if you get one with an EF nib, like one of my 51Vacs, you can do a great deal of writing on a single fill.  And that pen -- even with repairs, and RonZ opening up the tines a bit because it was scratchy, didn't cost anything like your 80£ price point; more like under 60£.  NONE of mine -- Aeros OR 51 Vacs -- cost 80£ or more except for the English-made Navy Gray Aero, and I was bidding on it at an auction at pen show mostly for the OB nib.  My cost, *including* the buyer's premium, ended up being just a bit over your 80£ price (I checked on a currency converter website just now.  Okay, they might not hold as much ink as a piston pen like an M400, but that's sort of like comparing apples to oranges.  And that Forest Green Aero I talked about earlier?  I paid a whopping $2 US for it at that estate sale.  And then another twenty bucks to have the times on that nib opened up a bit (again, it was an EF nib).  The other 51s?  Mostly F and M nibs (the M nib on my 1949 Plum Demi is an M and really stellar -- amazingly smooth for a pen that's been kicking around for over 70 years).  

And I think you may have missed my point.  I'm NOT looking at buying one of the "re-issued" 51s because, IMO, other than Parker Vectors (which are not bad if you don't mind a skinny, student-grade pen with a limited range of nib widths, especially the UK production ones) modern Parkers are mostly junk.  Because why would I?  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

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Good points,

 

And if I am just looking at money and values, the original 51 should be worth in five years time what you paid in 2020 as compared to the 51 relaunch, Chinese pens, even those with a fancy change of clothes, have a lot of qualities but holding their low price ain't one of them.

[Paganini]

Is this really what the new P51 is going to look like? Because those sample pens look exactly like Jinhao 85s. It's one thing for Jinhao to release a pen that looks like a Parker pen. It's a totally different thing for Jinhao to *beat them to the market by months* with brand new redesign!

[bunnspecial]

I love the 51, and in fact just sent what I call a thoroughly user grade but nice writing(based on what I could get in it) 51 Vac to Ron Zorn for repair. I have an Aero that I use somewhat regularly.

 

With that said, I don't know how well a reissue would go over. I suspect it would be a C/C pen. I love the Aero fillers just for how simple they are and that the sacs last basically forever while still holding a respectable amount of ink.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the 51 was the most produced FP in history. There's no shortage of pens out there, plus the Aeros really do often come to life with nothing other than a good cleaning(aside from those that got eaten up badly by Superchrome). There are also plenty of people out there who can work on them.

 

I personally would rather buy a nice condition old one, have it gone through by someone who knows what they're doing, and have a pen that's probably going to last a long time(esp. if its an aero) for what I imagine will be less money than any reissue, or at worst similar in price. As said too, the original will probably always be worth at least what you paid for it, while buying a new pen-short of some special LEs or the like-is often like buying a new car in terms of value lost.

[inkstainedruth]

  On 12/14/2020 at 6:36 PM, bunnspecial said:

I love the 51, and in fact just sent what I call a thoroughly user grade but nice writing(based on what I could get in it) 51 Vac to Ron Zorn for repair. I have an Aero that I use somewhat regularly.

 

With that said, I don't know how well a reissue would go over. I suspect it would be a C/C pen. I love the Aero fillers just for how simple they are and that the sacs last basically forever while still holding a respectable amount of ink.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the 51 was the most produced FP in history. There's no shortage of pens out there, plus the Aeros really do often come to life with nothing other than a good cleaning(aside from those that got eaten up badly by Superchrome). There are also plenty of people out there who can work on them.

 

I personally would rather buy a nice condition old one, have it gone through by someone who knows what they're doing, and have a pen that's probably going to last a long time(esp. if its an aero) for what I imagine will be less money than any reissue, or at worst similar in price. As said too, the original will probably always be worth at least what you paid for it, while buying a new pen-short of some special LEs or the like-is often like buying a new car in terms of value lost.

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I agree.  While the rarer colors fetch premium prices, Most of mine have been under $75 US -- even the user grade Plum Demi.  And several are ones I've found in the wild at antiques malls or estate sales (YMMV of course).  But even the rarer colors like Plum and Cocoa I've seen are available (Parker may have only made Plum for one model year, but that still means there are probably thousands of them -- after all 51s were the flagship pen for twenty years, and after the 12 MILLIONTH pen came off the production line, Parker stopped counting.  It's relatively easy to find a common color like Black for not a huge amount of money (especially if you consider what a modern high-end pen will set you back for a brand like Pilot or Pelikan -- and I'm not knocking either of those brands at all; but a well writing vintage pen is just special.  

I should look so good when I get to be 70 or 71 (the age of my Plum Demi).  Even the ones that don't have date codes are probably mostly from the mid-1950s, and while expensive pens in their day, they were designed to be robust and functional writing instruments.  The money spent on designing them was to make them the best pen on the market -- not to be some sort of bling to sit in a display case, or to show off how much money you had to throw around.  They're simple, streamlined, well made, and the money spent by Parker was for R&D.  And it shows.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[como]

Though it’s a bit expensive compared to what one can get with a vintage Parker 51, and does not have the “swosh swosh” filling system, I still think it would make a nice graduation gift. My nostalgia must be working on me 🙂 But they’d better be writing perfectly out of the box!

[Ferocity]

  On 12/5/2020 at 7:34 PM, OCArt said:

A member of Fountain Pens Oceania posted this photo of the new Parker 51s. The photo was supposedly taken inside a Australian store.

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wowwwwww!

So! Where do I buy the new 2020 Parker 51 with the lame clip!?

[pajaro]

It is a nice looking pen.  I am not sure I like the look of the nib.  It reminds me of some Parker 51 imitators from back in the day.  The nib looks like a more conventional nib.  I prefer the original 51.  

[mitto]

To me it looks like a hooded nib and screw cap Sonnet. 

[Man O War]

  On 12/14/2020 at 8:45 PM, inkstainedruth said:

I agree.  While the rarer colors fetch premium prices, Most of mine have been under $75 US -- even the user grade Plum Demi.  And several are ones I've found in the wild at antiques malls or estate sales (YMMV of course).  But even the rarer colors like Plum and Cocoa I've seen are available (Parker may have only made Plum for one model year, but that still means there are probably thousands of them -- after all 51s were the flagship pen for twenty years, and after the 12 MILLIONTH pen came off the production line, Parker stopped counting.  It's relatively easy to find a common color like Black for not a huge amount of money (especially if you consider what a modern high-end pen will set you back for a brand like Pilot or Pelikan -- and I'm not knocking either of those brands at all; but a well writing vintage pen is just special.  

I should look so good when I get to be 70 or 71 (the age of my Plum Demi).  Even the ones that don't have date codes are probably mostly from the mid-1950s, and while expensive pens in their day, they were designed to be robust and functional writing instruments.  The money spent on designing them was to make them the best pen on the market -- not to be some sort of bling to sit in a display case, or to show off how much money you had to throw around.  They're simple, streamlined, well made, and the money spent by Parker was for R&D.  And it shows.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

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Once again, and to no surprise, I find myself in complete agreement with Ruth!  

 

I have a Navy Gray aerometric, year unknown, that I purchased on eBay for under $100 in 2012 (I can't remember the exact price).  When I consider its quality, being a great writer, and history (I'm a history nerd), I look at so many of the other <$100 pens in my "collection" and wonder why I did't buy less of those and more 51s.

 

Ryan

 

[welch]

Just got the Fahrney's print catalog which shows the first advertisement -- that I've seen -- for the new Parker 51. Two versions:

 

• CT, with steel nib for about $79
• Deluxe, with gold-plated cap and 18KT gold nib for about $248.

The Deluxe seems a bit much, and I had thought about buying one, but the steel seems a reasonable price. A problem for gold nib version: just for comparison, I looked at the Anderson site, and a search for Park 51 showed an aerometric set, cocoa, for $148. With that nice case. 

 

It happens I have about two dozen Parker 51s, the real ones, so I won't be buying the reissued 51. I'd like to support Parker, and it would be nice to have a new version of the 51 in their lineup, but not at this price.