Celluloid Storage - Reality

[cpmcnamara]

Ive used fountain pens for a number of years but this is my first year venturing into older celluloid materials (the kind that off gasses). Since a number of these pens are very expensive, I have been researching how to store these. From what Im seeing, it seems like the best advice consensus is to store these separately, in ventilated areas. Is this reality for most people? It seems like Im constantly seeing people with huge pen cases of vintage celluloids, with no issue at all.

[mana]

I would say better safe than sorry. We know that celluloids do deteriorate with time and that it takes only one pen that is off to cause problems in pens that are not if stored in the same enclosed space for any prolonged period of time. So you have to ask yourself, do you really want to risk all that just to save space?

[Ron Z]

Its not like you have to have fans running to pull the air through the pen case. In general an open case, or one that can breathe, is better than a tightly sealed case. How critical this is depends on the celluloid, and it varies by color and manufacturer.

 

For example, Sheaffer's striped celluloids, black, and jade seem to be quite stable. The gray marbled celluloid, followed by the gray red veined material, and then black and pearl (in decending degree of vulnerability) are more likely to have problems. Parker Duofold celluloid, and most of the Vacumatic celluloids are quite stable. The red and mandarin yellow might get a bit brittle, but they don't fall apart just sitting there.

 

By contrast, Eversharp black and pearl, the Equipoise colors, some of the Doric celluloids seem to crack and decay more easily. Late production Omas celluloid, some of the Visconti celluloids (the Voyager series in particular) are prone to decay. David Nishimura opines that some of the pre-WWII German celluloids need to have a "use by" date on them because they are prone to decay. If you see signs of decay, isolate the pens so that the nitric acid released can not trigger problems in other celluloid pens.

 

That's not to say that you should avoid all celluloid pens. Just that we tend to see problems in the ones mentioned. Some are in great condition, but look carefully. Keeping the cases open a bit so that the celluloid can breathe is always a good idea.

[cpmcnamara]

Thanks everyone - does anyone have any recommendations on individual cases to store single pens in that are protective and dont take up too much space ?

[Honeybadgers]

Ron nailed it - just keep an eye on problematic pens and if they start to visibly degrade, separate them from the rest, as the offgassing of the very strong acid solvents that remains in them can act like a banana in a bag with a bunch of other fruit - the ethylene can accelerate ripening (and decay) of other fruits and veggies.

[Bibliophage]

If you want more research on it, hit one of the shaving forums, such as BadgerandBlade (jerks) or The Shave Den (good people). Both have a lot of information on people working with celluloid. Razors get it even worse than pens, because straight razors spent a lot of time in humid atmospheres.

 

https://theshaveden.com/forums/threads/cell-celluloid-rot-a-shining-example.55659/

 

Noone's really sure what causes it to -start-, but the results are degradation of the celluloid, leading to the release of gases/acids that will then go on to destroy steel - and it can apparently be contagious. So one suspicion is fungal. (nitric acid wouldn't start the same degradation process on other celluloid - it'd just cause damage)

[Honeybadgers]

  On 11/14/2019 at 11:47 PM, Bibliophage said:

If you want more research on it, hit one of the shaving forums, such as BadgerandBlade (jerks) or The Shave Den (good people). Both have a lot of information on people working with celluloid. Razors get it even worse than pens, because straight razors spent a lot of time in humid atmospheres.

 

https://theshaveden.com/forums/threads/cell-celluloid-rot-a-shining-example.55659/

 

Noone's really sure what causes it to -start-, but the results are degradation of the celluloid, leading to the release of gases/acids that will then go on to destroy steel - and it can apparently be contagious. So one suspicion is fungal. (nitric acid wouldn't start the same degradation process on other celluloid - it'd just cause damage)

 

It could act as a catalyst that rapidly accelerates the degradation process once it's been released from the damaged celluloid

 

For example (not a catalyst reaction though) sulfuric acid will dissolve gold INCREDIBLY slowly, and nitric acid won't really do much at all. But nitric AND sulfuric mixed will eat gold like hotcakes.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[Ron Z]

Take a look at this article by the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation on chemistry and preservation of celluloid objects. It is worth reading.

 

One interesting line (out of many!) in the article:

 

"As the arrows indicate, this reaction is reversible in the presence of nitric acid and water. (my emphasis) The nitrate groups oxidize the cellulose residues and produce nitrous oxides that catalyze further reactions. This reversibility of the nitration reaction indicates a source of potential deterioration."

[Honeybadgers]

The reversibility is likely the main driving force. No chemical reaction is fully product or reactant favored. There will always be components of both, and particularly with reversible reactions, when more nitric acid or moisture (from humidity or offgassing degrading celluloid) is present, the likihood of the rest of the reaction starting to walk backwards towards reactant favored is going to begin.

 

unfortunately, the "reversibility" doesn't mean that the damage can be reversed, however. MAYBE stabilized a bit.

[Bibliophage]

However, reading through that, the author of the article points out a number of different things that could lead to degradation, including alkaline reactions, and acidic reactions, especially with metals. (iron gall inks, anyone?)

 

So, to me, the article could be summed up as:

"We don't know exactly why celluloid degrades on any individual item, but we do know why it _might_ degrade, overall" They point out that there's not enough information, as celluloid polymers were predominantly abandoned except for the nitrocellulose lacquer industries. (and some other niche markets) They also don't mention the infection vector that some collectors have reported - probably because museums aren't so fussed about razors, and won't listen to people who don't have manure pile degrees. (PhD)

 

Frankly, I think that celluloid research should be funded by those "Let's go back to sustainability!" folks. Everything used in the manufacture can be recycled (even carbon tet.) and reused. If thrown away, it biodegrades, and you can use it pretty much anywhere you'd normally use modern plastics. Yes, there could be fire hazard, but then, most plastics used for pens, etc, are flammable anyway. (yes, I can set fire to a Bic)

Edited November 15, 2019 by Bibliophage

[mauckcg]

  On 11/14/2019 at 8:28 PM, Ron Z said:

 

By contrast, Eversharp black and pearl, the Equipoise colors, some of the Doric celluloids seem to crack and decay more easily. Late production Omas celluloid, some of the Visconti celluloids (the Voyager series in particular) are prone to decay. David Nishimura opines that some of the pre-WWII German celluloids need to have a "use by" date on them because they are prone to decay. If you see signs of decay, isolate the pens so that the nitric acid released can not trigger problems in other celluloid pens.

Late production Omas celluloid? What years in particular? I have a couple pens ranging from 1994 to right before Omas shut its doors.

[cpmcnamara]

It's interesting - I wonder if there's anyone who "rinses" their pens periodically as preventative maintenance.

[Intensity]

Airing out celluloid pens is good, but how would one deal with the internal part for piston-fillers and also the section that's normally covered by a cap? And the inside of the cap. Those hidden external parts (the section and the inside of the cap) are rarely exposed to fresh air, unless they are on a daily writer.

 

I'm worried about my pearl gray celluloid Omas Paragon, but so far so good *knocking on wood*. It's not a daily writer.

[Honeybadgers]

  On 11/15/2019 at 2:14 AM, Intensity said:

Airing out celluloid pens is good, but how would one deal with the internal part for piston-fillers and also the section that's normally covered by a cap? And the inside of the cap. Those hidden external parts (the section and the inside of the cap) are rarely exposed to fresh air, unless they are on a daily writer.

 

I'm worried about my pearl gray celluloid Omas Paragon, but so far so good *knocking on wood*. It's not a daily writer.

 

If you notice on vintage jade celluloid pens - the part where they're most often discolored is where the cap covers the barrel. It's also where they start to disintegrate first.

 

If you're keeping it museum fresh, uncapped and well ventilated is key.

 

I didn't know late model Omas celluloid had problems. That's worrying. But my green wahl doric is still minty fresh despite being well used, so who knows how ubiquitous the issue really is.

[Intensity]

Some of the newer celluloid pens had issues, like certain colors of Visconti celluloid. There were reports of Omas pens ambering and I've read about one where a bunch of Omas pens were disintegrating, but it's unclear if they were just stored in really bad conditions.

[Bibliophage]

  On 11/15/2019 at 3:21 AM, Honeybadgers said:

 

If you notice on vintage jade celluloid pens - the part where they're most often discolored is where the cap covers the barrel. It's also where they start to disintegrate first.

 

If you're keeping it museum fresh, uncapped and well ventilated is key.

 

I didn't know late model Omas celluloid had problems. That's worrying. But my green wahl doric is still minty fresh despite being well used, so who knows how ubiquitous the issue really is.

The article above, which appears to have been well researched, implied that various issues could happen from where they sourced the cellulose, the filler materials, and all sorts of different things (even re-used nitric acid). It's aimed at museum conservators, so they have a shotgun approach to try to ameliorate disintegration.

 

Some of the early "jelly" shoes, for example, melt when stored with other plastic. (My wife used to work at the Henry Ford Museum, and Greenfield Village, and she had some stories, like when they opened a box with the above, and everything was... goo. )

[Honeybadgers]

  On 11/15/2019 at 4:26 AM, Bibliophage said:

The article above, which appears to have been well researched, implied that various issues could happen from where they sourced the cellulose, the filler materials, and all sorts of different things (even re-used nitric acid). It's aimed at museum conservators, so they have a shotgun approach to try to ameliorate disintegration.

 

Some of the early "jelly" shoes, for example, melt when stored with other plastic. (My wife used to work at the Henry Ford Museum, and Greenfield Village, and she had some stories, like when they opened a box with the above, and everything was... goo. )

 

Absolutely. It's nigh-impossible to nail down a true source, because there are so many variables. in the 20's even "pure" products were nowhere near as pure as we can make them today.

 

I doubt even the very best celluloid makers could get their hands on 98% fuming nitric acid.

[amk]

Out of my various pens, there are three big problems:

 

Edacoto super 208 - the visulated ink window has started to crystallise

 

Rotring Tintenkuli in purple 'candystripe' has crystallised

 

Waterman 100 Year pens - every single one I have, the ends have been nibbled away - time to ream out the remainder of the end pieces and make new ones.

 

Other vintage celluloids are doing just fine, though the French ones (and black celluloid Swans) are prone to shrinkage and deformation, particularly on the caps.

[peterg]

I have a cheap French cracked ice pen. When I looked at it recently I found it had started to melt into another pen it was touching.

 

Lesson learnt.

[Wahl]

Visconti Voyager Coral from late 80´s, a complete mess, however the same model in blue is still fine.