So What Exactly Is The Melt Value Of A Vintage Pen?

[eharriett]

This came up as a side discussion on another group and it got me curious as I dont know the answer.

 

I go to a fair number of fleas and other places and sellers say theyll sell me their pens for such a price because thats what theyd get for it if they sold it for melt value.

 

How much gold is actually in the average vintage pen? Not exacts, but lets say Im looking at a WWII era Sheaffer lifetime with a somewhat thicker nib, or a Sheaffer with a triumph. What exactly is that expected value? And what about that unbranded, yet warranted 14k nib? To me, 9 out of 10 sellers are either inflating the price, knowingly or not, but I dont know. I know how to look up the price of gold, but not being into jewelry, I really know nothing else.

[mana]

It is basically the value of the gold in the nib, gold plated or rolled gold parts do not really count (the amount of gold in them is negligible).

Depending on the size of the nib and the purity of the gold we are talking anything between $10-$30, most common 14k nibs should weigh around half a gram to a gram. I mean, if you know the exact weight of the nib and its purity the math is easy. You can find scrap gold prices online from places that buy used jewelry, should give you a better estimate. Not really that much if you ask me and overall a pretty darn heinous an idea to begin with.

More info can be found on this thread > https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/147725-how-much-does-a-gold-nib-weigh/

[eharriett]

Got it. So the guy trying to tell me there is $60+ of gold in that nib for an old vintage pen is most likely full of you know what.

Edited November 11, 2019 by eharriett

[Karmachanic]

Gold these days is around $1470 +-/ per oz, so that's around $52 per gram, 24k.

[Ron Z]

You will not get 100% of the price of gold when you scrap it - 85% is pretty good.

 

The $60 is fantasy. Typical vintage nibs are 14K, maybe a little higher, but not 24K.

[inkstainedruth]

What bugs me about the pens where someone HAS pulled the nib to sell for the value of the gold? That they could have often gotten MORE money by selling the pen intact.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: I found some no-name lever filler for $20 in a place in Corry, PA, outside of Erie a few years ago. It had a 14 C (yes, it was marked C, not K -- which apparently meant it was either English made or German made for the English market. I was later told that nib was was five TIMES what I paid for the pen -- not for the gold value, but because of what the nib was. Took it to Ron at a pen show and he couldn't get the pen apart, but was able to harvest the nib and feed and put them into a Parker Parkette he was in the process of restoring. LOVELY writer. The joy of that amount of flex vastly outweighed, IMO, the intrinsic value of the nib's melt down value, and vastly outweighs the cost I paid for the original pen and the pen Ron was restoring.

Hmmm.... I should think about bringing that pen with me, inked up, to show my brother-in-law's wife at Thanksgiving or Christmas (because she's the type of person who would ONLY be looking at the intrinsic -- read "resale" -- value).

Edited November 11, 2019 by inkstainedruth

[Honeybadgers]

Problem is that currently, nibs are not good ROI for scrap because they have such value as collector pieces, but right when the gold boom was growing in the early 90s, they were a dirt cheap way of getting gold that nobody wanted (the ballpoint was still king)

 

So we lost a ton of classics.

 

I still shudder to think what happened to that intact sheaffer triumph music nib that someone posted as being in a "scrap for melt" pile. That nib was maybe 30 bucks in gold but easily five or six HUNDRED to a collector.

[FarmBoy]

This subject always leads to some interesting discussion.

 

Experience indicates that flea market dealers can't do math and don't have a scale. Likewise, collectors don't actually offer anything close to multiples of the scrap value.

Edited November 12, 2019 by FarmBoy

[Addertooth]

I would consider scrapping a nib, only if it had a tine entirely broken off, or it was a low value nib, which had the tips broken off. I have checked on the cost to re-tip a pen, and it is usually cheaper to just buy a spare nib elsewhere. A repairable gold Music nib would get every reasonable opportunity to get repaired. The same for a Wahl adjustable nib. Both of those types typically sell for many times their gold values.

[Karmachanic]

Demonstrating that "value"is a subjective, eye of the beholder kind of thing.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Karmachanic

[eharriett]

This subject always leads to some interesting discussion.

 

Experience indicates that flea market dealers can't do math and don't have a scale. Likewise, collectors don't actually offer anything close to multiples of the scrap value.

Actually, that's one of the reasons I initially asked. Not so much because I can't calculate it (although I couldn't), but because sellers say they'll sell the pen to me for the scrap value and then always name a price that's higher than I expect it should be.

[jvr]

What bugs me about the pens where someone HAS pulled the nib to sell for the value of the gold? That they could have often gotten MORE money by selling the pen intact.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: I found some no-name lever filler for $20 in a place in Corry, PA, outside of Erie a few years ago. It had a 14 C (yes, it was marked C, not K -- which apparently meant it was either English made or German made for the English market. I was later told that nib was was five TIMES what I paid for the pen -- not for the gold value, but because of what the nib was. Took it to Ron at a pen show and he couldn't get the pen apart, but was able to harvest the nib and feed and put them into a Parker Parkette he was in the process of restoring. LOVELY writer. The joy of that amount of flex vastly outweighed, IMO, the intrinsic value of the nib's melt down value, and vastly outweighs the cost I paid for the original pen and the pen Ron was restoring.

Hmmm.... I should think about bringing that pen with me, inked up, to show my brother-in-law's wife at Thanksgiving or Christmas (because she's the type of person who would ONLY be looking at the intrinsic -- read "resale" -- value).

Your brother-in-law’s wife?

[AAAndrew]

Your brother-in-law’s wife?

 

Even though it wasn't me that posted, I read that as my wife's brother's wife, or my husband's brother's wife.

[inkstainedruth]

 

Even though it wasn't me that posted, I read that as my wife's brother's wife, or my husband's brother's wife.

 

Exactly. In this case, she's married to my husband's oldest brother.

Gets really interesting at times with my sister-in-law's husband, who is a Liberal Catholic priest (apparently some bishop left the RC church in the late 19th C. but the Roman Catholics have to accept Ed as a "valid" priest because the ordination ceremony wasn't changed -- even though of course he's married to my husband's sister (he used to do a lot of second marriage ceremonies for people who were RC but divorced).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Honeybadgers]

I would consider scrapping a nib, only if it had a tine entirely broken off, or it was a low value nib, which had the tips broken off. I have checked on the cost to re-tip a pen, and it is usually cheaper to just buy a spare nib elsewhere. A repairable gold Music nib would get every reasonable opportunity to get repaired. The same for a Wahl adjustable nib. Both of those types typically sell for many times their gold values.

 

if it's got good flex, broken off tipping would just relegate it to a "save for later" pile.

 

Because once a nib is melted, the unique flexible alloy that was used to make it from yesteryear is gone. We don't have gold sheetstock anymore in the alloys that make for good flex - it's just too niche a market.

[Bibliophage]

I actually "Harvested" an old busted Sheaffer, just so I could check the nib out. Gold value of the nib _at best_ was $12. Somewhere I have the nib, I haven't found it. I passed the intact bits to Sherell as "I'm not going to do anything with them, here, maybe you will." (cap and barrel, in good shape)

 

I haven't located where I put the nib, yet. I had been carrying it in my car as a 'just to play with when I needed some down time'. Kind of like a pre-fidget spinner.

[A Smug Dill]

Because once a nib is melted, the unique flexible alloy that was used to make it from yesteryear is gone. We don't have gold sheetstock anymore in the alloys that make for good flex - it's just too niche a market.

 

I take "it's just too niche a market" to mean whatever you're describing just isn't that sought after, the consumer base on the whole aren't that keen on it, and the tiny majority who thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread just isn't prepared to throw enough money at suppliers to make it worthwhile to produce more of that thing today as for-profit enterprise.

 

So, on the balance of the interests of everyone, what's the big deal? By the way, no, it is not anti-social to cater to the mainstream while leaving niche markets (i.e. a small number of interested buyers and a small number of suppliers with the means to buy and sell) to work themselves out commercially with neither help nor hindrance.

Edited November 13, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[Honeybadgers]

 

I take "it's just too nice a market" to mean whatever you're describing just isn't that sought after, the consumer base on the whole aren't that keen on it, and the tiny majority who thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread just isn't prepared to throw enough money at suppliers to make it worthwhile to produce more of that thing today as for-profit enterprise.

 

So, on the balance of the interests of everyone, what's the big deal? By the way, no, it is not anti-social to cater to the mainstream while leaving niche markets (i.e. a small number of interested buyers and a small number of suppliers with the means to buy and sell) to work themselves out commercially with neither help nor hindrance.

 

I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is.

 

It's just how foundries work. 14k sheetstock used to be made for fountain pens specifically because that's all anyone wrote with - gold also had far fewer uses. Electroplating and electrical connections, heat shielding, were all nonexistant or extremely uncommon by comparison. Gold was basically for jewelry and fountain pens in the 1900's-1950's.

 

So sheet stock made with a higher alloy of more ductile materials could be specifically ordered from a foundry. Nowadays, it'd just be too expensive to ask a foundry to do a custom run of sheet stock, it'd be a minimum order request in the tens of millions to formulate, all for a tiny market.

 

So, we just aren't getting custom alloys made for true vintage quality flex nibs. No nib manufacturer has its own foundry, they use pre-made 14k, 21k, 18k sheet stock that is also used in a lot of other fields.

 

So, in essence, because the market for vintage flex style nibs is soooooooooooooooooo tiny, nobody is making the required materials. And therefore, the nibs that are made from vintage flex alloys are in effect irreplacable. That, to me, makes them much higher than their smelt value, even broken, because even quite mangled examples can be repaired (greg minuskin is a wizard with a laser welder), and a good waterman #2 wet noodle could be resold for a couple hundred bucks easily.

 

Even vintage "nails", which are made from the same sheet stock as the flex nibs, can be made into vintage flex by good nibmeisters. Greg minuskin does this all the time with semiflex and nail nibs, turning them into very flexible nibs.

[A Smug Dill]

Nowadays, it'd just be too expensive to ask a foundry to do a custom run of sheet stock, it'd be a minimum order request in the tens of millions to formulate, all for a tiny market.

 

So, we just aren't getting custom alloys made for true vintage quality flex nibs. No nib manufacturer has its own foundry, they use pre-made 14k, 21k, 18k sheet stock that is also used in a lot of other fields.

 

So, in essence, because the market for vintage flex style nibs is soooooooooooooooooo tiny, nobody is making the required materials.

The point is that the demand is simply not there from the consumer base and/or fountain pen user community (of which we're all part, as equals) today. (Note: I'm agreeing with you on that.) Bemoaning the loss — including, but not limited to, destruction or re-purposing — of those old nibs and alloys, as in what has already been physically produced, is therefore a minority concern, and not representative of how "we" as a collective feel about it. I was speaking up the "silent majority" of fountain pen users today who just don't really care about the issue.

 

Before anyone jumps in to suggest I should therefore stay silent, please be reminded that (at least I take the view) this is a discussion forum for the entire community, not just minority and special interest groups among fountain pen users. Ten or even fifty flex enthusiasts echoing each other's sentiments does not make it the voice or sentiment of the entire community; it's just that most of the time people who don't care don't speak up. I'm not trying to change your mind, any more than any of you set out to change mine, by participating in this discussion, but I believe it's good for other users, as well as prospective producers and suppliers of what the consumer base is interested to buy, to get a more balanced view. No doubt there will be more voices here that preach "vintage" and "flex" to outnumber me, but at least it won't be one-sided.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not playing Devil's advocate here, or assuming a position I don't believe in just to troll. I really just don't care, and I hope to heavens above that for everything and every issue that somebody feels strongly enough about, there is some way to have an "objective" statistic or gauge of just of what proportion of the consumer base per capita (or consumer spending in dollars) in interested, for others to either decide their views on it (and/)or consider their response as a party in the market.

 

Those of you who want the good ol' days of "vintage flex" ought to really focus on actually creating more demand, either by throwing dollars on the buying end or "educating" other uninitiated/uncaring fellow fountain pen enthusiasts at your expense, so that those with the know-how and the resources to restart production has something to respond to in the name of for-profit enterprise. The fact is that "we" have moved on, and before you can enjoy the "golden age" of what used to be common again, someone needs to be investing money and not just emotion into changing the status quo.

 

If someone is selling vintage pens for "melt value", that's because they aren't seeing the opportunities to make far more from whoever is interested in the pens as they are, so reach out (as in by some sort of organised and possibly costly campaign) to "educate' them on how much more money they could make using which avenues. You want to protect the continued existence of those old nibs; they just want to get what they can from what's theirs to sell. They don't have to subscribe to the virtue of flex or of heritage; few people will refuse more money free of sentimental attachments and ideals.Your — and I don't mean just you an an individual, but all those in the minority today who cares — spending on what doesn't translate to immediate additions to your material possessions is the path.

 

I truly believe that when we stop expecting others to respond to our wants and personal values in a positive or supportive manner, but simply know our own goals and then appeal to others' values if we require their resources and cooperation to make what we want come to pass (again?), the world will be a better place with fewer conflicts because we'll no longer demand that others share, echo or at least sympathise with our sentiments.

 

Whatever you want to bring about, whether it's something previously unheard of or a revival of something of yesteryear, you ought to be selling it to others on the basis of what they can gain from helping that happen, and not in either any inherent worth of that thing or the strength of the sentiments of a minority.

[praxim]

The point is that the demand is simply not there from the consumer base and/or fountain pen user community (of which we're all part, as equals) today. (Note: I'm agreeing with you on that.) Bemoaning the loss — including, but not limited to, destruction or re-purposing — of those old nibs and alloys, as in what has already been physically produced, is therefore a minority concern, and not representative of how "we" as a collective feel about it. I was speaking up the "silent majority" of fountain pen users today who just don't really care about the issue.

 

Not that you should be silent but that you might read twice what people say.

 

niche:

denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialised section of the population.

 

That is what Honeybadgers said. It is what you appear to be paraphrasing at turgid length. What are you adding?