Leonardo Photo Thread

[JonSzanto]

25 minutes ago, dms525 said:

IBest I can tell, the biggest difference is seen in how rounded the bottom of the iridium tip is - the B being rounded and the stub flatter.

 

I just wished more people were interested in producing stub nibs that aren't always that wide. It is easy enough to form a stub shape, or even a cursive italic, in widths narrower than 1.0mm. This is why I tend to not buy 'factory' stubs, as they are too wide for my handwriting style. I often just get a B and have one of my nib people grind to a 0.5 - 0.7 or so italic point (or stub). It's as if the concept of stub has become not just the shape but a really wide nib, and that shouldn't be the case.

[Doug C]

7 minutes ago, JonSzanto said:

 

I just wished more people were interested in producing stub nibs that aren't always that wide. It is easy enough to form a stub shape, or even a cursive italic, in widths narrower than 1.0mm. This is why I tend to not buy 'factory' stubs, as they are too wide for my handwriting style. I often just get a B and have one of my nib people grind to a 0.5 - 0.7 or so italic point (or stub). It's as if the concept of stub has become not just the shape but a really wide nib, and that shouldn't be the case.

I agree.  I often wonder why factory nibs aren't offered in sizes smaller than 1.1 (although i realize most use jowo/Bock off the shelf).

I think it's a missed opportunity for marketing. 

[dms525]

18 minutes ago, JonSzanto said:

 

I just wished more people were interested in producing stub nibs that aren't always that wide. It is easy enough to form a stub shape, or even a cursive italic, in widths narrower than 1.0mm. This is why I tend to not buy 'factory' stubs, as they are too wide for my handwriting style. I often just get a B and have one of my nib people grind to a 0.5 - 0.7 or so italic point (or stub). It's as if the concept of stub has become not just the shape but a really wide nib, and that shouldn't be the case.

 

6 minutes ago, Doug C said:

I agree.  I often wonder why factory nibs aren't offered in sizes smaller than 1.1 (although i realize most use jowo/Bock off the shelf).

I think it's a missed opportunity for marketing. 

 

I agree as well. Franklin-Christoph offers JoWo nibs ground to CI or Stub by Masuyama and Nagahara in narrower widths. Stipula has offered both 1.1 and 0.9mm Italic nibs. These are exceptional.

 

I will share our questions and wishes with Salvatore and report his response.

 

David

[Intensity]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

I emailed Salvatore Matrone and asked about his concept of the B and BB nibs versus the 1.4mm Stub on the in-house 14Kt La Fenice nibs. Here's his reply:

 

the la Fenice stub1.4 nib and the la Fenice B or BB nib are totally different, the concept of stub is not present in the B, I was inspired by the grindig of vintage German nibs and above all by the vintage MontBlanc. 

 

Then a large ball of iridium worked on the 2 sides and rounded in the center right on the tip where the iridium touches the paper.

 

Best I can tell, the biggest difference is seen in how rounded the bottom of the iridium tip is - the B being rounded and the stub flatter.

 

David

 

I am not entirely sure what he means about the "2 sides", but the B is also squared along the end side, and along the top too, not just left and right.  It is true the bottom is more rounded, which you can see on my picture.  However for practical purposes the nib looks and behaves as a typical stub.  I would argue that the JoWo 1.1mm is more of a smoothed cursive italic than a stub, and this B is a stub.  Salvatore's reply also makes me worry that my B is somehow special and that if I get another 14K La Fenice B, it might not be as "stubby".

[Intensity]

P.S.: I too agree about the practical benefit of slimmer cursive italics and stubs.  The La Fenice 14K B writes narrower / smaller than the previous JoWo 1.1mm stub, at about the borderline of what I'm comfortable with, given that it's a stub, so line variation is not as strong as it could be.  I am super curious to see some writing results from the La Fenice 14K M, in case it's also shaped similarly to the B and is an even smaller stub.  It would be perfect if so!  I do also really like the stubby-B and think it's a fantastic alternative to the blobby modern round B's.

 

Making a clear distinction here for the 14K requirement for La Fenice nibs, as the steel La Fenice nibs don't have these special architect or stub-like factory shapes.

[JonSzanto]

Very small point to remember in discussion: the stub/italic quality is not simply width, but variation between thick/thin lines created by the actual shape of the grind. 

[Intensity]

5 minutes ago, JonSzanto said:

Very small point to remember in discussion: the stub/italic quality is not simply width, but variation between thick/thin lines created by the actual shape of the grind. 

 

Right, that is how approach it as well.  This is what I mean by the La Fenice 14K B behaving as a true stub, regardless of its shape being potentially slightly different from a classic stub.  And the 1.1mm 14K JoWo nib writes as a rounded cursive italic rather than a true stub.

 

The generic way of referring to un-tipped wide steel nibs as "stubs" has muddied the definitions in the recent years, because those really write like cursive italics.

[JonSzanto]

28 minutes ago, Intensity said:

The generic way of referring to un-tipped wide steel nibs as "stubs" has muddied the definitions in the recent years, because those really write like cursive italics.

 

Boy, truer words were never spoken.

[hairlame]

3 hours ago, dms525 said:

I emailed Salvatore Matrone and asked about his concept of the B and BB nibs versus the 1.4mm Stub on the in-house 14Kt La Fenice nibs. Here's his reply:

 

the la Fenice stub1.4 nib and the la Fenice B or BB nib are totally different, the concept of stub is not present in the B, I was inspired by the grindig of vintage German nibs and above all by the vintage MontBlanc. 

 

Then a large ball of iridium worked on the 2 sides and rounded in the center right on the tip where the iridium touches the paper.

 

Best I can tell, the biggest difference is seen in how rounded the bottom of the iridium tip is - the B being rounded and the stub flatter.

 

David

Thank you so much for posting this, its great to hear what the intent was in creating the nib from the source.  The homage to the vintage German/Montblanc nibs is precisely what I appreciated about the 14k La Fenice nib.  

[dms525]

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

The generic way of referring to un-tipped wide steel nibs as "stubs" has muddied the definitions in the recent years, because those really write like cursive italics.

 

True. Lamy and JoWo are good examples, and Jowo's Gold Stubs are also CI.

 

Nib technicians who have provided CAD pictures of their stub/Cursive Italic/Formal Italic grinds have emphasized the roundedness versus squareness of the nib tip corners. But the shape of the very end of the tip and the bottom of the nib tip also are important. These people also warn about Formal Italic nibs with sharp corners catching on paper, if you rotate the nib at all.

 

Yet, to me what matters is the thick/thin line differentiation. Some of my nibs with the greatest line differentiation are also very smooth writers. That's the way I like them. Of the half-dozen nib technicians I have patronized, most produce wonderful nibs that are both crisp and smooth writers when I ask for a "crisp cursive italic."

 

My take away, is that the terminology is sufficiently imprecise that you have to know the characteristics of the specific nib before buying it or assume you will have to have it customized.

 

As to the Leonardo 14Kt La Fenice stubs, they have another peculiarity, based on my experience with three of them to date. When first inked, they write extremely wet - too wet really for my purposes. Over a few weeks use, they develop a pattern of writing very wet after a rest, but get drier and therefor crisper after writing a few lines. After a few more weeks, they write crisper, even after a long rest. Now my newest of the three stubs is still in the second phase. If it gets to the third phase remains to be seen.  

 

Rather dry inks (Diamine, Montegrappa and Pelikan) are in all three pens, and I'm writing on Rhoda paper.

 

David

[dms525]

An update: I emailed Salvatore about our desire for narrower Stub and Cursive Italic nibs. He liked the idea and told me he thinks he will be offering B and/or BB nibs ground to stub and/or "CSI," which is his designation for smooth writing cursive italic nibs.

 

FYI, I have a steel JoWo B nib that Salvatore ground to CSI. It's a wonderful writer! It is very smooth and still has excellent line differentiation.

 

 

 

I'm pretty excited about the prospect of a gold CSI nib.

 

David

[Intensity]

Does he mean for the steel nibs?  Since I think the new 14K La Fenice B and BB are already stubs?  I would love to see an M stub, as B stub is still a pretty thick nib.  Hope someone here will add their experience with the current La Fenice 14K M.

[dms525]

9 hours ago, Intensity said:

Does he mean for the steel nibs?  Since I think the new 14K La Fenice B and BB are already stubs?  I would love to see an M stub, as B stub is still a pretty thick nib.  Hope someone here will add their experience with the current La Fenice 14K M.

 

I'm not sure what you are asking. On the Leonardo web site, one "Special Collection" pen is offered with a M or B CSI nib.

 

Salvatore does not regard the 14Kt La Fenice B and BB nibs as stubs. He modeled them after vintage MB nibs.

 

He is thinking about grinding those nibs to Stubs and/or CSI. There was no mention of M nibs.

 

I hope that clarifies what I have reported. If there are new developments, I will report what I know.

 

David

[Intensity]

I feel like that’s just semantics…. As I demonstrated in my photographs, the 14K B La Fenice is already a stub for all practical purposes.  Whether it was styled after vintage Montblanc tipping shape or not, it looks and writes like a stub.

[dms525]

1 hour ago, Intensity said:

I feel like that’s just semantics…. As I demonstrated in my photographs, the 14K B La Fenice is already a stub for all practical purposes.  Whether it was styled after vintage Montblanc tipping shape or not, it looks and writes like a stub.

 

I don't disagree, but I find that knowing the manufacturer's thinking about product is interesting.

 

FWIW, the stub, cursive italic, smooth cursive italic, formal italic terminology is imprecise. I have pens with nibs designated "stubs" that are crisper than some designated "italic." I have some "cursive italic" nibs that I would call "formal italic."

 

I now have three Leonardo in-house 14kt La Fenice "stub" nibs. With the right ink and paper, they are quite as crisp as most "cursive italic" nibs.

 

The maker's designation is a hint as to what you can expect, at best. Tomahto/Tomato stuff.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[JonSzanto]

Couldn't agree more, David. The entire history of fountain pens seems to be a combination of unstandardized hardware/design with imprecise descriptions and implementation.

[dms525]

My latest Leonardo pen is Limited Edition (1 of 1) ebonite pen made for Casa della Stilografica in Florence. I think it is gorgeous. It has a 14Kt JoWo stub, not the in-house Leonardo gold "La Fenice" nib. The nib does seem to have been tuned by Leonardo. It is significantly narrower than the usual JoWo 1.1 stub. It is also surprisingly springy for a JoWo nib. I like it.

 

 

 

 

 

David

[Carrau]

13 hours ago, dms525 said:

My latest Leonardo pen is Limited Edition (1 of 1) ebonite pen made for Casa della Stilografica in Florence. I think it is gorgeous. It has a 14Kt JoWo stub, not the in-house Leonardo gold "La Fenice" nib. The nib does seem to have been tuned by Leonardo. It is significantly narrower than the usual JoWo 1.1 stub. It is also surprisingly springy for a JoWo nib. I like it.

 

 

 

 

 

David

Wild looking material, David.  The picture of the finial on end has the look of a cross section through petrified wood.  
https://images.app.goo.gl/AfL6TG3MMGQMWrBR8

I’m glad you’re enjoying it.

[Susanna]

This is another ebonite Special in red-violed veins.
One of a kind.

 

[mauckcg]

I haven't participated recently, so here is the latest acquisition.  MZG in Tropical from Stilo & Stilo.  Needs to be cleaned and inked for the first time.