John Bull pens made by Conway Stewart?

[gorgieramone]

I am trying to find any information on John Bull pens.

 

All i know is that I had heard that they, or some of them at least, were made by Conway Stewart.

 

Does anyone know if this is true or have any other info on the John Bull brand?

[andyr7]

Possibly some of them could have been produced by CS but I don't think there is any well-documented link such as you get with Relief, LeTigre or Svanstroms for instance.

 

Jonathan only pictures one example here that he considers a likely candidate, which seems to have a CS-like knurled cap end, a roughly CS shaped lever and typical concave section, all of which put you in mind of a chased black vulcanite Dandy dating to about 1927.

 

However, this could also have been made by another company just copying a CS design. Usually one of the identifying points of the CS associated pens is the presence on the barrel of one of the CS patent numbers. Otherwise, you just have to look at the stylistic clues.

 

Unfortunately I know nothing more about the John Bull brand. If you get no response here, you might try posting a request for more information in the Pen history forum.

 

Andy

[terim]

We have a John Bull lever filler with a CS shorthand nib ....

 

http://www.peytonstreet.com/pens/misc%20brands/johnbull_flex_1.jpg

 

Not that that cements a formal relationship between John Bull and CS. No patent numbers that we can see,

 

TERI

[northlodge]

I would think it very unlikely that your pen started life with a CS horthand nib.

 

It would not be normal for a 'third party' pen made by CS to carry no identification excepting the nib. More common is to have a CS lever and /or clip and a warranted 14ct nib.

 

CS made shorthand pens, but the documented ones would be 1950's /60's rather than the 20's/30's that I associated the JB with. Also the CS Shorthand 3 nib you are showing was generally associated with the CS85L based 'shorthand pen'.

Edited July 11, 2018 by northlodge

[peterg]

John Bull pens were an associate product of the John Bull magazine. Most of their pens were made by third parties but for a while after WW1 they had a manufacturing facility. It was run by a 'colourful' person by the name of Horatio Bottomley. The magazine was bought by a large publisher - Odhams Press in 1920 and manufacturing ceased some time after 1922.

 

Later pens were made by Altura and Waterman's and Unique (& probably others including Mentmore).

 

My feeling is that the pictured pen was made by Altura, but it could equally have been Mabie Todd, in the late '20's/ early '30's.

 

I haven't seen anything to suggest Conway Stewart were involved. Third party CS pens normally scream CS at you with a stamped clip or filling lever

Edited July 17, 2018 by peterg

[northlodge]

I have been thumbing my copy of Stephen Hull's Conway Stewart book, where there is evidence of a clear link between CS & JB. Whether that link confirms CS manufactured JB pens immediately after WW1 is debatable, but it does make it every bit as likely as any other manufacturer.

[peterg]

As always Steve's comments raise as many questions as they answer!

 

My interpretation is that John Bull had a relationship with Conway's, they had pretty much cornered the market during WW1, for the supply of pens. It would be interesting to see if there are any JB's without a stamped country of origin (like early CS's).

 

Bottomley was not an industrialist but a publicist (& charlatan) so, in the same way he factored out the printing of his magazine, he would have paid for the factory and contracted out its management. £7,000 was a substantial sum in those days. Conway's had incorporated in 1909 for £8,000 but how much of that was cash is unknown. I think the additional factory was opened and managed by CS or Frank Jarvis as a side line. Certainly in 1922 John Bull claimed to be a manufacturer of fountain pens.

 

When Odhams took full control of JB, being printers, pen manufacturing was not part of their ambitions and it was sold off at some point, probably to Conway's.

 

But most of that is conjecture

[shalitha33]

Sorry about posting to a very early thread .

 

 

 

 

This pen doesn't have a stamp indicating the origin. It simply states "john bull pen" "self filling safety". nib looks to be somewhat of a dip nib but tipped and is gold. Although that could be a replacement i guess

Edited May 26, 2020 by shalitha33

[peterg]

Have you a photo of the nib?

[shalitha33]

i'm 99% sure the nib in this pen is a replacement. It has no markings on it. it is tipped and is a gold nib.

 

I am assuming this started its life as a dip nib that was later tipped and used this way. When looking at the curve on the nib , its not uniform as you would expect. angles closer to the sides is different to that of the middle. it may have been expertly re-shaped to fit a fountain pen. there are no dings or rough marks on either side indicating repair-work.

 

Chasing on this is fairly crisp and rubber is not faded, so i am guessing it hasn't had much use. Probably some one replaced the nib and sac with the one that is in it currently much more recently.

 

 

 

I am no expert on this matter so i am very likely wrong.

Edited June 1, 2020 by shalitha33

[eachan]

I'm quite certain that nib began life as a fountain pen nib. These leaf-shaped nibs are not uncommon, having been made by several manufacturers, most notably Macniven and Cameron.

[northlodge]

It is now well established that Conway Stewart made a range of "Relief" pens for Esterbrook, into which Esterbrook then fitted their own "Relief" nibs.

 

Therefore would it not be possible for an order to be placed with CS for "John Bull" Pens, and then source nibs from M&C for fitting by the third party? - and I agree with Eachan that this nib looks very like the M&C nib seen on e.g. The Waverley pen.

 

I am curious as to what Peter was thinking when asking for a picture of the nib?

[peterg]

I was hopeing to see a CS warranted nib.

 

I think it more likely that CS fitted Relief imprinted nibs to the pens they manufactured in the same way that Unique fitted Eversharp nibs to their Kingswood pens. Periodically CS pens turn up with CS nibs the same shape as the Relief nibs.

 

Sadly I agree that the leaf shaped nib is a recent replacement.

[shalitha33]

Thank you all for all the information btw this nib seems to have an imprint but its on the part of the nib that goes in to the section. can slightly see a letter or two. i'll try to pull out the nib and hopefully it will have something helpful.

[shalitha33]

Sorry about the bad image quality. Nib just says warranted 14ct misaligned tines are my fault when pulling out the nib

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by shalitha33

[peterg]

Mmm that does look old. I would go with the others and say it is probably a Macniven and Cameron product.

[shalitha33]

today while going through a bunch of spare parts , ended up with 2 forward parts of safety pens. one marked John Bull and one marked Conway Stewat. both have a single groove cut inside the barrel at the opposite edge to where the imprint is in the outside.

I don't have any other British safety pens so i have no clue if this is a British thing. but the US ones i have seen usually have it cut in both edges. Sadly i don't have any other parts, like feed , spiral or end parts .

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by shalitha33

[Colourfingers]

I have an eyedrop filler one in mint condition never used or dipped called The John Bull Safety Pen. It dates back to 1920 and is 100 years old. The cardboard box is a bit perished obviously. I'm going to use it on what would have been my Nonna's 100th birthday in August and sit by her grave to write her a letter with it. I've been saving it since 2009 for just that occasion.

[peterg]

I have an eyedrop filler one in mint condition never used or dipped called The John Bull Safety Pen. It dates back to 1920 and is 100 years old. The cardboard box is a bit perished obviously. I'm going to use it on what would have been my Nonna's 100th birthday in August and sit by her grave to write her a letter with it. I've been saving it since 2009 for just that occasion.

1920 would have been when the John Bull factory (British United Pen Works Ltd) which was next door to the Conway Stewart factory was being managed by Frank Jarvis (one of CS's directors).