What Is Blue

[samasry]

 

Everyone sees colors a little differently, and everyone describes them even more differently. We've had disagreements here before about what is pure blue, what is sky blue, what is turquoise blue, what is violet, cobalt, royal blue, etc. What one guy says is pure blue, another calls aqua. What one guy calls purple-ish, another says is pure blue.

 

Computers have caused a lot of confusion, because they've made most people aware of the RGB color model — Red, Green, Blue. The problem is that the B in RGB is really violet. It should be called the RGV model. Think back to your rainbow. . . Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet. The V in Roy G Biv is the same as the B in RGB. (And to make matters even worse, even as children we were taught that "roses are red, violets are blue!" Way to spread confusion!)

 

Complicating things even more is that some people tend to perceive any shade of blue as being more violet-ish if it's darker, for example if you're using a wetter pen. The hue hasn't changed, but your perception of it does.

 

So with all those caveats stated, here are how my eyes see things:

blue = Iroshizuku Kon Peki

indigo-blue = Diamine Asa Blue

indigo = Parker Penman Sapphire, Monteverde Horizon Blue

Ditto on your sentence. Especially when both eyes have undergone cataract surgery

violet = Noodler's Baystate Blue

 

 

Can you please elaborate more

 

What is your definition of the color blue ?

What is your definition of the color violet?

 

How do computers define the color blue?

 

If you familiar with CIE xy chromaticity coordinates, you can provide (x,y) numbers for these colors, so I can understand the point you are making a bit clearly, or you can describe the color in terms of dominant wavelength if you would like.

 

Thanks

[tonybelding]

Can you please elaborate more

 

What is your definition of the color blue ?

What is your definition of the color violet?

 

How do computers define the color blue?

 

If you familiar with CIE xy chromaticity coordinates, you can provide (x,y) numbers for these colors, so I can understand the point you are making a bit clearly, or you can describe the color in terms of dominant wavelength if you would like.

 

Wow. . . Now we're getting deep enough into color theory that it might be better to just delve into Wikipedia articles on the subject, which are extensive. I haven't even heard of CIE.

 

Keep in mind that this is not only a question of optics but also of linguistics. The words we use to describe colors have significant influence on how we perceive them. Just do a search on "wine dark sea" and you'll come up with many pages speculation. Examples:

• http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/hoffman_01_13/
• https://www.thewinedarksea.com/2014/02/26/wine-dark-sea-homer-color-blind/
• https://burnaway.org/blue-language-visual-perception/
• https://nationalpost.com/news/why-the-colour-indigo-is-disappearing-from-sir-isaac-newtons-occult-rainbow
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROYGBIV

And so forth.

 

My particular interest is how Newton gave us the ROY G BIV color classification, even though he acknowledged that his color vision was not particularly good! He had to recruit a friend who was, apparently, better able to make subtle color distinctions to help him divide up the spectrum and put labels to it.

 

Now that we are aware of the RGB color model of human vision (which I don't think Newton knew anything of), it would make more sense to define three primary colors (red, green, blue) and two secondary colors (yellow and cyan) and one non-spectral secondary color (purple). So the rainbow would be RyGcB, and then you'd have p (purple) out somewhere on its own.

 

However, the English language isn't based on science and logic. It's based on history, and for most of history nobody knew anything about wavelengths of light or about retinal cells. Newton's ROY G BIV color spectrum was drilled into a lot of people for a long time, and it seems to work pretty well in everyday discussion.

[samasry]

 

Wow. . . Now we're getting deep enough into color theory that it might be better to just delve into Wikipedia articles on the subject, which are extensive. I haven't even heard of CIE.

 

Keep in mind that this is not only a question of optics but also of linguistics. The words we use to describe colors have significant influence on how we perceive them. Just do a search on "wine dark sea" and you'll come up with many pages speculation. Examples:

• http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/hoffman_01_13/
• https://www.thewinedarksea.com/2014/02/26/wine-dark-sea-homer-color-blind/
• https://burnaway.org/blue-language-visual-perception/
• https://nationalpost.com/news/why-the-colour-indigo-is-disappearing-from-sir-isaac-newtons-occult-rainbow
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROYGBIV

And so forth.

 

My particular interest is how Newton gave us the ROY G BIV color classification, even though he acknowledged that his color vision was not particularly good! He had to recruit a friend who was, apparently, better able to make subtle color distinctions to help him divide up the spectrum and put labels to it.

 

Now that we are aware of the RGB color model of human vision (which I don't think Newton knew anything of), it would make more sense to define three primary colors (red, green, blue) and two secondary colors (yellow and cyan) and one non-spectral secondary color (purple). So the rainbow would be RyGcB, and then you'd have p (purple) out somewhere on its own.

 

However, the English language isn't based on science and logic. It's based on history, and for most of history nobody knew anything about wavelengths of light or about retinal cells. Newton's ROY G BIV color spectrum was drilled into a lot of people for a long time, and it seems to work pretty well in everyday discussion.

 

CIE is International commission on Illumination (in french) and they are the organization that defined the 1931 RGB color system, and many other systems (such as XYZ) to correlate colors and wavelength of light.

 

I was prompted to ask questions so I can understand your logic a bit more. In the previous post, you seemed to be making assertions about what the color blue "really" is . I could have misunderstood your meaning, but that post seemed to imply that you think your definition of blue ( which is derived from Newton's rainbow) has some sort of "truth" connotation and that other definitions such as RGB color system were "wrong".

 

I am glad that in your latest post you are more flexible towards the "semantics" of blue, cyan, violet, ...etc.

Edited July 14, 2019 by salmasry

[tonybelding]

CIE is International commission on Illumination (in french) and they are the organization that defined the 1931 RGB color system, and many other systems (such as XYZ) to correlate colors and wavelength of light.

 

Standardization is useful and necessary for science and engineering, and for working with color in a consistent way, but when it comes to actual human perception it's always going to be an approximation and a compromise, simply because everybody's eyes are different.

 

See here → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_cell

 

I'd especially point out this bit:

 

Being color blind can change this, and there have been some verified reports of people with four or more types of cones, giving them tetrachromatic vision. The three pigments responsible for detecting light have been shown to vary in their exact chemical composition due to genetic mutation; different individuals will have cones with different color sensitivity.

[samasry]

 

 

Standardization is useful and necessary for science and engineering, and for working with color in a consistent way, but when it comes to actual human perception it's always going to be an approximation and a compromise, simply because everybody's eyes are different.

 

See here → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_cell

 

I'd especially point out this bit:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Standardization is useful and necessary for science and engineering, and for working with color in a consistent way, but when it comes to actual human perception it's always going to be an approximation and a compromise, simply because everybody's eyes are different.

 

See here → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_cell

 

I'd especially point out this bit:

 

 

 

The reason I tried to invoke wavelength or some standard (xyz) to describe a given color, is to have some reference. Since all color meters and spectrometers use wavelength or xyz or xyY or something similar to specify color, is it is an accurate method to communicate or describe a given color.

 

Having said that I agree with you 100% that color perception is subjective, and depends on the distribution of S/M/L cones for each of us as well as how strong the adaptation mechanisms that we all exhibit. There are many color perception phenomena that relates to light/dark adaptation, white point or chromatic adaptation (von Kris), Hunt effect, Stevenes effect, simultaneous contrast ...etc.

[inkstainedruth]

It occurs to me that there are cultural/linguistics differences to color perception as well (and not just the snarky bit about how women say "Oh, this is teal and this is cyan and this is sky blue, and " while men go "Uh, it's all blue....")

Some languages do not differentiate colors as being "different" (IIRC, Welsh uses the same word to describe blue, green and grey; and someone once told me that when the Roman Catholic Church was starting to convert people in Japan to Christianity, the prelates' robes were orange because the Japanese dyers could not make what Westerners would consider a "true" red -- for the dyers it WAS "red", and they didn't distinguish between red and orange.

The bit about tetrachromatic visions sounds very interesting. I hadn't heard about that before. I do remember seeing a thing on PBS a number of years ago (might have been an episode of Nova) and they were looking into color perception and interviewed a guy who was 100% colorblind because of not having ANY cones I think) -- for him, everything was a tone of grey and he didn't know the difference otherwise.

But then, I also remember a friend of my brother's who was blind due to cerebral palsy. It was fascinating to see him talking about "I see" when he was feeling something (like my brother's new stereo). Because of course he was used to hearing people saying "Oh, I see" when they meant "Oh, I understand"). He made money by fixing TVs -- sometimes he'd have his younger brother tell him what was on the screen while he was working, but sometimes not (he apparently could HEAR when the image was rolling...).

And of course, I was an art major in college, and a lot of my professors were Yale School of Art and Architecture grads, and of course every freshman art major (as well as people like fashion merchandising majors) got subjected to Joseph Albers color theory....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[samasry]

It occurs to me that there are cultural/linguistics differences to color perception as well (and not just the snarky bit about how women say "Oh, this is teal and this is cyan and this is sky blue, and " while men go "Uh, it's all blue....")

Some languages do not differentiate colors as being "different" (IIRC, Welsh uses the same word to describe blue, green and grey; and someone once told me that when the Roman Catholic Church was starting to convert people in Japan to Christianity, the prelates' robes were orange because the Japanese dyers could not make what Westerners would consider a "true" red -- for the dyers it WAS "red", and they didn't distinguish between red and orange.

The bit about tetrachromatic visions sounds very interesting. I hadn't heard about that before. I do remember seeing a thing on PBS a number of years ago (might have been an episode of Nova) and they were looking into color perception and interviewed a guy who was 100% colorblind because of not having ANY cones I think) -- for him, everything was a tone of grey and he didn't know the difference otherwise.

But then, I also remember a friend of my brother's who was blind due to cerebral palsy. It was fascinating to see him talking about "I see" when he was feeling something (like my brother's new stereo). Because of course he was used to hearing people saying "Oh, I see" when they meant "Oh, I understand"). He made money by fixing TVs -- sometimes he'd have his younger brother tell him what was on the screen while he was working, but sometimes not (he apparently could HEAR when the image was rolling...).

And of course, I was an art major in college, and a lot of my professors were Yale School of Art and Architecture grads, and of course every freshman art major (as well as people like fashion merchandising majors) got subjected to Joseph Albers color theory....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Are you trying to say that the IroShizuku colors are some sort of retaliation by the Japanese for this Orange/Red episode?

 

Iro developer: U westerners are acting so high and mighty, can u see the difference between the Momiji and the tsutsuji? I dont think so blame it on the cones, blame it on the cones

Edited July 17, 2019 by salmasry

[Gawain]

I am so glad I titled this thread, "What is blue"?

For me, blue is North Star Liberator. YMMV.

 

Anyway, my quest is at a rest. I have discovered two inks that seems to me to be on one side, then the other of North Star Liberator.

 

I'm not going to post a picture because I don't have a way to calibrate the color at the moment. Maybe when I get home.

 

Noodler's Monkey Hanger Blue (a bit lighter than NSL)

North Star Liberator

Pilot Kon-Peki (a bit darker than NSL)

 

I ordered Monkey Hanger from Pure Pens in Newport United Kingdom. Arrived surprisingly fast to U.S.

I ordered a bunch of blue samples from Anderson Pens, so I purchased my Kon-Peki from Anderson Pens as well. I love receiving a full 3 ml sample from AP!

 

Thanks everyone for your help and replies.

[wallylynn]

 

 

The reason I tried to invoke wavelength or some standard (xyz) to describe a given color, is to have some reference. Since all color meters and spectrometers use wavelength or xyz or xyY or something similar to specify color, is it is an accurate method to communicate or describe a given color.

 

 

Even that is a mess. For example, let's just standardize "blue" as the wavelength of your monitor (blue LED, blue phosphor, etc.). Would RGB (0,0,1) be blue? How about (0,0,255)? They're the same wavelength, literally the same glowing spec. Just dim vs bright.

 

Of course, there's also the issue that inks are reflective and subtractive. Not luminous, additive light. Mix red light with green light results in yellow. Mix red ink with green ink results in very not-yellow.

[wallylynn]

 

and someone once told me that when the Roman Catholic Church was starting to convert people in Japan to Christianity, the prelates' robes were orange because the Japanese dyers could not make what Westerners would consider a "true" red -- for the dyers it WAS "red", and they didn't distinguish between red and orange.[/font]

I still encounter that when talking to old folk. There's no distinction between blue and green. And I'll hear, literally, "orange (the fruit) color", or "mouse color" because there's no specific word.

[samasry]

 

 

Even that is a mess. For example, let's just standardize "blue" as the wavelength of your monitor (blue LED, blue phosphor, etc.). Would RGB (0,0,1) be blue? How about (0,0,255)? They're the same wavelength, literally the same glowing spec. Just dim vs bright.

 

Of course, there's also the issue that inks are reflective and subtractive. Not luminous, additive light. Mix red light with green light results in yellow. Mix red ink with green ink results in very not-yellow.

 

Just to clarify, my initial point to the previous poster was that "blue" is just a "semantic" there is no definite universal true meaning for the word.

 

In fact, I did not advocate to use RGB to describe colors, RGB is a scaling system for color primaries that are usually described in xyz or xyY.

 

But to answer your question quickly : We have to use the concept of color gamut. This is a 3D surface that shows the possible colors a given monitor could produce in the xyY space, where "Y" is the brightness (sort of) and typically the gamut at a given "Y" is like a triangle (also sort of). For small "Y" the triangle in xy is large and you get a deep saturated blue color. As "Y" gets larger, the triangle shrinks and you can not reproduce deep colors at large brightness, so u get a less saturated blue color at high "Y". If we apply that to the case you describe, (0,0,1) is a deeper blue and has different "xy" than (0,0,255) so they are not the same color, in terms of "xy", albeit u can call them both blue. But that is another topic, as again when you introduce Brightness in the pictures, you need to track the "Hue" to represent color not just "xy". For the same Hue or color, as Brightness change, "xy" will change, and hence the need to provide xyY to be specific, since you know u r part of a 3D gamut or within a 3D surface.

 

This was done quick and might have reinforced your opinion that this is a mess, but it is in fact a branch of color science, relating to color matching or reproduction of color. There are many books written about these topics.

Edited July 18, 2019 by salmasry

[inkstainedruth]

 

Are you trying to say that the IroShizuku colors are some sort of retaliation by the Japanese for this Orange/Red episode?

 

Iro developer: U westerners are acting so high and mighty, can u see the difference between the Momiji and the tsutsuji? I dont think so blame it on the cones, blame it on the cones

 

Well, not having tried Momiji, I can't say for certain. But given that I *can* detect the subtle differences in color between Yama-budo and original formula Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses? Or between Noodler's North African violet and PR Purple Mojo? Betting I could....

Of course, I have a BFA in Art, so I'm used to dealing with stuff like the Pantone Matching System.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: And of course with dealing with Color-Aid paper....

Edited July 18, 2019 by inkstainedruth

[samasry]

 

Well, not having tried Momiji, I can't say for certain. But given that I *can* detect the subtle differences in color between Yama-budo and original formula Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses? Or between Noodler's North African violet and PR Purple Mojo? Betting I could....

Of course, I have a BFA in Art, so I'm used to dealing with stuff like the Pantone Matching System.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: And of course with dealing with Color-Aid paper....

 

 

It was a joke, so please take in that spirit. Of course, u personally were not the target of their revenge in the joke

 

I am sure they would not be selling these two inks unless at least some people can see the difference.

 

I picked the two colors because "I" did not see a big difference on the "screen", which is different than the real colors. BTW: I never saw either of the colors in real life. Take care.

[inkstainedruth]

Well, I'm used to dealing with my husband. Who is somewhat face-blind to begin with (if he were to meet you and then meet you again with you having changed your hairstyle he would not recognize you). And well, is also sort of "Mr. Oblivious" to begin with (he can't find a trash can or the laundry hamper if his life depended on it, and I don't remotely expect him to differentiate between the subtleties between blue-black ink A and blue-black ink B... ).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[samasry]

Well, I'm used to dealing with my husband. Who is somewhat face-blind to begin with (if he were to meet you and then meet you again with you having changed your hairstyle he would not recognize you). And well, is also sort of "Mr. Oblivious" to begin with (he can't find a trash can or the laundry hamper if his life depended on it, and I don't remotely expect him to differentiate between the subtleties between blue-black ink A and blue-black ink B... ).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

I am sure you guys are a fun and lovely couple. Best of luck

[inkstainedruth]

 

 

I am sure you guys are a fun and lovely couple. Best of luck

 

Well our 32nd anniversary was the end of May. We celebrated it by doing something we'd never done before, either together or separately, which was to go down to Virginia for the weekend and take a tour of Monticello. We were supposed to do it a few years before, but I depended on him to make the arrangements.... So I got even for our 30th anniversary, and we went to the Triangle Pen Show. He tolerated the show on Friday. And he even tolerated me buying a Parker 51 in the Saturday night auction (truthfully, Navy Gray is a butt-ugly color -- but I was bidding on the pen because of the OB nib).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[samasry]

 

Well our 32nd anniversary was the end of May. We celebrated it by doing something we'd never done before, either together or separately, which was to go down to Virginia for the weekend and take a tour of Monticello. We were supposed to do it a few years before, but I depended on him to make the arrangements.... So I got even for our 30th anniversary, and we went to the Triangle Pen Show. He tolerated the show on Friday. And he even tolerated me buying a Parker 51 in the Saturday night auction (truthfully, Navy Gray is a butt-ugly color -- but I was bidding on the pen because of the OB nib).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

Cool, U r lucky to have such an understanding man.

[Cargoblues]

It's a rethorical question, I guess. Otherwise I suggest that you read "Comments on colours" by Ludwig Wittgenstein

[inkstainedruth]

Hmmm. That sounds interesting, Cargoblues. I think I'm going to have to check that out (in my copious amount of free time).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Cargoblues]

Hmmm. That sounds interesting, Cargoblues. I think I'm going to have to check that out (in my copious amount of free time).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

It's quite interesting if you try to understand colours. I'm not sure of the english title, the original book is in german and mine is in french "Remarques sur les couleurs".