Pilot Metropolitan - Still The Entry Level Recommendation?

[Iur]

  On 4/22/2019 at 10:35 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

(...)

 

As a fellow fountain pen user/purchaser and fellow consumer in general, I strongly disagree with your sentiment expressed above. Intelligent and/or informed purchasing decisions require proper due diligence, and I staunchly believe it should be performed at the ultimate cost of the individual prospective purchaser, as a trade-off against the additional 'cost' or 'loss' of buying sub-optimally. I don't want anyone to be cheated or misled as customers by retailers, but I also don't want a world where people get (or are 'owed') what they want by default without putting their time, energy and thinking caps on. If people don't want to invest time to do research into and/or 'study' the market offerings into what they would like to buy, then I think reasonable expectation is that 'by default' they'll get something that deliver to the stated product specifications and fulfil all applicable consumer law obligations, that were nevertheless not designed and tailored to fit their requirements or satisfy them optimally.

 

Avoid the upfront cost of due diligence, and wear the impact of sub-optimal purchasing as an ongoing thing for the 'lifetime' of the product bought. Those who feel they're ill-equipped to do proper due diligence themselves can always engage others to perform the tasks — as a personal favour, for the price of a beer, or as a professional 'analysis' service — without expecting either the industry or 'the community' to make it easier as if they're entitled to good advice and/or easy decision-making just by wanting to make a purchase.

 

If someone asks me for a recommendation, I almost always either take the time to properly consider their requirements and preferences against what is on the market, or tell them unambiguously that I'm under no obligation to render them any assistance and they haven't demonstrated why I should make the effort, so they can engage someone else with whom they have some leverage or pre-existing relationship.

 

Although your wording sounds a bit harsh, I generally agree with your point.

 

I tend to do a lot of research when purchasing new items. The more expensive, the more research I put into it, as in the case of PCs and laptops.

 

I bought the Metropolitan at the time after a few day's research on fountain pens in general and found it simply fulfilled all my needs (well, maybe the M nib would have been more adequate for me than the F nib, but apart from that...).

 

Indeed, that is not the same as saying the Metropolitan would fit everyone's tastes and needs. I now fancy a much wider range of pens, other than the 'classical looking' type, by opening my eyes to other equally viable options, in no small part thanks to research (especially here on FPN).

 

Anyone unwilling to commit time and effort to a given goal indulges in the risk of not getting optimal performance.

If the person is willing to chance upon such risk, more power to him/her, IMO.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Iur

[penzel_washinkton]

As a little bit background in my case, Pilot Metropolitan was locally the easiest pen to recommend just over a year ago.

It was priced at only $10-ish and was readily available on a nationally well known online selling platform (like a local ebay). Misconception regarding quality of Chinese pens is really strong for beginners hence many starters does not trust FPs coming from China, most of Platinum's lower end offering are very limited in stock (even when in stock, the colors are limited) and the Safari is priced at more than twice the price of a Metropolitan here. Thus it was what I called a "no brainer" decision to recommend the Pilot Metropolitan for starters (many options of colors and band patterns only helps it).

 

Fast forward to today, the price of the Pilot Metropolitan is twice the price of itself a year ago (mostly inline with the recent price increase). Competitors are smelling the price range that the Metropolitan has left behind and has churned out inexpensive products but funnily, I don't think there has been a pen truly able to replace it ,a successor if you can say. At that $10 price point, personally I have not been able to find a fountain pen with the same level of timeless design, availability, durability of the body material, consistent QC and reliable at the same time.

 

Therefore, even at the current price range I could not write off the Metropolitan off my recommended starter list yet.

Of course you have to take into context that this does not apply to other countries (such as Mech-for-i informing that Preppy are the go to starter pens in Japan), just sharing my personal opinion on what's happening locally.

 

  On 4/21/2019 at 2:48 PM, Honeybadgers said:

It's still easy to find for $10-12.

 

In the $20-30 range, we're looking more at the pilot explorer

 

That's true, I found that some sellers are still using their old pricing. Are those NOS?

Pilot Explorer is not being sold worldwide though, unlike the Pilot Metropolitan which makes it hard to access for some.

 

While I agree that we as the more experienced fountain pen users should have an extra effort in recommending pens to beginners, it is also harmless to have a set of pens that straight off the bat you could recommend to a person asking for quick advice (which means that these sets are fountain pens that you trust). It might not be only one, but multiple choices that can be recommended depending on the preference of the person as other members have mentioned. Whether they take a deeper plunge to scour information online or quickly take our advice is wholly up to them, but at least we did not recommend an item that we ourselves do not trust.

[Iur]

Nice answer +1

[A Smug Dill]

  On 4/22/2019 at 1:39 PM, penzel_washinkton said:

it is also harmless to have a set of pens that straight off the bat you could recommend to a person asking for quick advice (which means that these sets are fountain pens that you trust).

OK. First on my 'list' would be the 'basic' Platinum #3776 Century models. They come in five different colours with gold trim, four of which are attractively (but very faintly) translucent without being a silly demonstrator (but there are of course more expensive demonstrator models in that product family), and offers a substantial range of 14K gold nibs as options for nib width and style, all without breaking the bank so to speak. That to me is a no-brainer, if I'm not going to worry about the user's preferences for a pen's girth, weight, balance, length or shape.

[gyasko]

I always have a stash of beaters for outside the house duty. I tried a Metro but i couldn't stand the weight or the section step. The nib wasn't as nice as the ones on the Safari or the Al-Star, and heft is not a good thing in my book. I never had them on my recommend list.

[Mr5x5]

Platinum Preppy or Pilot Varsity I would recommend. Inexpensive and write well. If you try it and decide you don't like a fountain pen you aren't out much. The step on the Metropolitan is too uncomfortable for me.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Mr5x5

[Iur]

The only thing I do not enjoy on the Varsity is the ink, which seems to feather quite a bit on at least some standard cheap paper.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Iur

[XYZZY]

When I think of "entry level" I assume that the target audience is people who are buying their first fountain pen for themselves. Once you get into gifting it opens up too many variables.

 

I think price is important for somebody who is FP-curious but not sure why a pen ought to cost anything at all, when the world is full of pens from the office copy room or store check-out that have made their way home with a person accidentally. The pen also needs to Just Work straight from the package, but I'm not sure that a converter is scary, other than a bottle of ink being an additional $10-$30 add-on.

 

I voted "Yes, but those price increase....." after waffling between that and "Not anymore". Ideally, I would have wanted a ballot option of "Not anymore because of the price increase". While HoneyBadgers is correct that it's still easy to find them for the old price, that's just a matter of draining what is already in the retail channel--once those are gone and the only thing left is the new price, then I don't think it's a good option.

 

Pilot has several other models with the same nib & feed that, so give the same writing experience as the Metropolitan. The differences then are in price, appearance, and how the pen feels in the hand (size, weight, weight distribution). Personally if I would go with Pilot then I would suggest a Kakuno over the Explorer. The Explorer looks nicer, is comparable in price, but I cringe whenever I pick up my Explorer because it's weight just doesn't match the visuals, even after a month as EDC I just cannot get used to it.

 

[JollyCynic]

  On 4/22/2019 at 10:35 AM, A Smug Dill said:

... As a fellow fountain pen user/purchaser and fellow consumer in general, I strongly disagree with your sentiment expressed above. Intelligent and/or informed purchasing decisions require proper due diligence ...

 

I believe that we're discussing two different pens, both covered by the phrase "entry level". I'm describing a starter pen, while you're describing a first pen.

 

What you're actually suggesting in this argument is an investment of time and effort for something which has no proven value to, as I stated, someone only curious about fountain pens. As a fountain pen is not a requirement for many people, the point of the starter pen is to satisfy a curiosity. The point of a default recommendation is to evidence the value of the instrument. It should require little investment (whether in time, effort, or money), or it has failed its basic requirement.

 

I'm sure that the idea of investing time, effort, and money for something that looks good on paper but they may or may not actually like makes sense to some people. I'm not among them. I'll take the $12 starter pen and come back if it's as interesting as I thought. Then I'll spend some time. If not, I'm out $12 and am on to writing Alexa skills.

 

If one is not interested in a starter pen, and are convinced of the value of the investment, then your strategies would make perfect sense.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 4/24/2019 at 1:08 AM, JollyCynic said:

I believe that we're discussing two different pens, both covered by the phrase "entry level". I'm describing a starter pen, while you're describing a first pen.

My framing is premised on the O.P.'s question:

  On 4/21/2019 at 2:22 PM, penzel_washinkton said:

Do you still find the Metropolitan a no brainer to recommend as a fountain pen to beginners?

If not, then what are the "default" pens you recommend to beginners?

  Quote

What you're actually suggesting in this argument is an investment of time and effort for something which has no proven value to, as I stated, someone only curious about fountain pens. As a fountain pen is not a requirement for many people, the point of the starter pen is to satisfy a curiosity. The point of a default recommendation is to evidence the value of the instrument.

I disagree. I personally would not recommend cheap, third-tier running shoes to beginner runners who haven't quite decided how seriously they will take up running as regular exercise. If they decide, after a week of running in expensive shoes fitted by experts to their feet, that running isn't 'it' for them, that's fine by me. Or maybe the sunk cost of the shoes will keep them going working past the initial hump, until running becomes a habit and more enjoyable over time. What I will not be party to is recommend unsuitable shoes -- on the premise that they supposedly carry less overall risk to the beginner's health, wallet and continuing interest -- that contribute to pain or injury of the runner and kill the first burst of enthusiasm. I approach recommending fountain pens the same way. It's not my job to protect someone's wallet and minimise their spend in satisfying an objective, and those who ask my advice because I'm known to 'geek out' on stuff do not approach me to score them the best bargain basement solutions (even though I'm also known to family and friends for being an astute shopper).

 

If someone just wants to know which pens are available cheaply, with which they can have a play without risking too much money on a pen (or a hobby) they may not end up enjoying, I'll direct them to an online shopping site and show them how to sort the results in ascending order of price. I'm a very good business analyst, but I'm not their business analyst, if they consult me for recommendations as a technical subject matter expert (irrespective of whether I'm actually 'qualified' in that area as an SME).

 

I'm not really that interested in making recommendations of 'gateway' pens to get someone started on the hobby of fountain pens. For all I care, one good (and not necessarily cheap) writing instrument could be enough for someone, even if they're after a number of related outcomes with regard to handwriting and/or drawing with bottled ink; and if they later decide they aren't that keen to draw or write with 'flair' or flourishes after all, it still wouldn't in any way mean my recommendation was ill-advised.

Edited April 24, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[Honeybadgers]

  On 4/22/2019 at 11:39 AM, Iur said:

 

Although your wording sounds a bit harsh, I generally agree with your point.

 

I tend to do a lot of research when purchasing new items. The more expensive, the more research I put into it, as in the case of PCs and laptops.

 

I bought the Metropolitan at the time after a few day's research on fountain pens in general and found it simply fulfilled all my needs (well, maybe the M nib would have been more adequate for me than the F nib, but apart from that...).

 

Indeed, that is not the same as saying the Metropolitan would fit everyone's tastes and needs. I now fancy a much wider range of pens, other than the 'classical looking' type, by opening my eyes to other equally viable options, in no small part thanks to research (especially here on FPN).

 

Anyone unwilling to commit time and effort to a given goal indulges in the risk of not getting optimal performance.

If the person is willing to chance upon such risk, more power to him/her, IMO.

 

Not every purchase a person makes should need to be "thoroughly researched." Caveat emptor is just an excuse for (bleep) customer service. Now, buying a MB 149 and expecting it to be heavy is definitely a sign that you didn't do your due diligence. But buying a visconti and expecting the nib to write isn't. Also, when you're looking at an entry level item, there should be expectations that what you're buying will at least work. If you're looking at a "first pen" and eyeing a cross medalist, yes, you might want to do a few google searches and the like, because that's a much more substantial investment. But we've all thrown away money on pens we didn't like, particularly at the lower end cost spectrum. I researched the diplomat magnum a bit before buying it (and after) and my problems with it haven't been mentioned anywhere else.

 

Also, there is a HUGE amount of intensely personal discoveries to be made in this specific hobby. So many of us adore the lamy 2000. It has a few well known quirks, but there is NO way to know if that little sweet spot issue is going to be a bother until it's in your hands. And even if it isnt' a problem, it may just not sit right in your fingers. Until you're fairly well versed in a hobby, there is an intrinsic level of mistakes that will be made, especially as you dip your toe into vintage pens and ESPECIALLY flex.

 

Also, "entry level" and "first" should be distinct. Motorcycles are a perfect simile. Lots of people buy a "first" bike as a harley or a ducati. But a true "entry level" bike is a ninja 250 or 300. Not just due to price, but because the smaller bikes teach you a lot at a lower initial cost, and reduce the risk of loss if you decide the experience itself isn't for you. (a $2000 ninja 250 will always be worth $2000, even on its twelfth owner)

Edited April 24, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[Honeybadgers]

  On 4/22/2019 at 5:08 PM, XYZZY said:

 

I voted "Yes, but those price increase....." after waffling between that and "Not anymore". Ideally, I would have wanted a ballot option of "Not anymore because of the price increase". While HoneyBadgers is correct that it's still easy to find them for the old price, that's just a matter of draining what is already in the retail channel--once those are gone and the only thing left is the new price, then I don't think it's a good option.

 

 

 

I am totally speaking conjecture here, but it's possible the metro/MR will remain dirt cheap because the JDM price may stay low, as it has with the rest of their entire damned line

 

I get a lot of teenagers in college into FP's. The metro winds up being what I always recommend. I've yet to have a single one of them say they didn't like it. But there are lots of happy lamy safari owners out there too, which kind of amazes me due to how (bleep) the Z50's EF and F nibs are.

 

I think, above all else, a recommendation in America for a first time user should be towards a pen with a western F nib at the absolute broadest, because any wider and you are going to need better paper. Which becomes just more of a logistical headache for a new user who just wants a thing that writes. A kid sees a pen feathering and bleeding like a sharpie on their paper is going to be annoyed when they flip it over to keep writing.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[JollyCynic]

  On 4/24/2019 at 1:33 AM, A Smug Dill said:

My framing is premised on the O.P.'s question ...

My mistake for giving you the benefit of the doubt. As I can see that it was a wilful misinterpretation of the question rather than an honest one, there can be little common ground.

 

That's okay. You can answer any question you want. The rest of us will be discussing the gateway pen you eschew.

 

Enjoy your day.

[Iur]

  On 4/24/2019 at 3:07 AM, Honeybadgers said:

 

Not every purchase a person makes should need to be "thoroughly researched." Caveat emptor is just an excuse for (bleep) customer service. Now, buying a MB 149 and expecting it to be heavy is definitely a sign that you didn't do your due diligence. But buying a visconti and expecting the nib to write isn't. Also, when you're looking at an entry level item, there should be expectations that what you're buying will at least work. If you're looking at a "first pen" and eyeing a cross medalist, yes, you might want to do a few google searches and the like, because that's a much more substantial investment. But we've all thrown away money on pens we didn't like, particularly at the lower end cost spectrum. I researched the diplomat magnum a bit before buying it (and after) and my problems with it haven't been mentioned anywhere else.

 

 

Agreed 100%. It is just that sometimes one has to make a triage by research to only then get like 2 or 3 main candidates, just like in a job application.

I was very happy with the Pilot Metropolitan and would be again if I got another one.

As for the Lamy F nib, I read a lot before purchasing and saw a great amount of conflicting comments.

It ended up being a letdown... :/

But only a very small amount of money was wasted, so no serious harm there.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Iur

[penzel_washinkton]

  On 4/22/2019 at 1:49 PM, A Smug Dill said:

OK. First on my 'list' would be the 'basic' Platinum #3776 Century models. They come in five different colours with gold trim, four of which are attractively (but very faintly) translucent without being a silly demonstrator (but there are of course more expensive demonstrator models in that product family), and offers a substantial range of 14K gold nibs as options for nib width and style, all without breaking the bank so to speak. That to me is a no-brainer, if I'm not going to worry about the user's preferences for a pen's girth, weight, balance, length or shape.

 

I don't see how that would be a bad choice? You trust it and you have reasons for it. Of course the person you recommend it to might think otherwise but hey, if they feel that recommendation is too expensive I am pretty sure that they would say "Do you have a recommendation at under $50 or something?" (if they are serious in getting into fountain pens of course).

[carlos.q]

I really didn't like my Platinum 3776 with a medium nib. The feedback from the nib felt like I was writing with a #2 pencil. So as you can imagine I would not recommend this as a starter pen.

 

But then again that's just me.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 4/24/2019 at 1:10 PM, penzel_washinkton said:

I don't see how that would be a bad choice? You trust it and you have reasons for it.

The Platinum #3776 Century isn't a bad choice for me, because I already know my requirements and preferences in the (next) fountain pen I want to buy and use. However, it could be a poor fit for someone else, for reasons that have nothing to do with their level of previous exposure to and/or experience with using fountain pens (i.e. whether they are 'beginners' or not), because some prospective users could find the model too thick (or thin) in girth, too short (or long) in length, too light (or heavy), or how the balance of the pen is if they prefer to write with the cap posted (or unposted). There are quite a number of FPN members who prefer the dimensions and/or shape of the Pilot Custom 74 to the Platinum #3776 Century, but I just don't like that pen (and I bought not one, but two, of them although I recently sold one), not that there is something technically deficient about its design.

 

The whole recommendation by default reads to me as, "telling someone that a pen will suit their needs and requirements, without actually taking the time to elicit and understand their needs and requirements." I don't do that as a SME in any number of different technical fields, I don't do that as a business analyst and enterprise architect, so I don't see why I would do that to someone who is looking to buy a pen for a beginner's use. If I couldn't be bothered to work through the requirement analysis part, then I couldn't be bothered to make a recommendation (on which I stake my reputation in whatever capacity that led them to ask me in the first place) and would say so to the requester's face. If they don't know their requirements, they and I could do some work (possibly taking hours of my time and theirs) to identify those; and if they cannot be bothered to invest their own time into that phase, then yet again I won't make a recommendation but tell them to find someone else to ask.

 

None of that has to do with price. I don't like to make assumptions about Joe Random's capacity and willingness to spend $10, $100 or $1000 on a fountain pen that they want to serve them (or whichever beginner they're buying it for) well.

 

p.s. I just saw what you wrote after publishing my post. Thank you for your feedback about the Platinum #3776 Century, no pun intended. It helps illustrate my point.

Edited April 24, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[eharriett]

I have a couple. They're okay. I personally thought the Sheaffer VFM was always a better choice. Better nib. OK, no converter, but still solid, always cheaper, and way nicer to write with. I still use a few of those regularly.