Yard-O-Led Value - New Prices

[RJS]

  On 8/14/2021 at 6:53 PM, 1nkulus said:

The Grand is a beast and makes a great statement compared to other brands IMO.

Pricing is just 25% more than the Standard. 

 

The nibs are from JoWo but I had thought they were Bock.

IMO, the Victorian design is the only one worth buying as it is unique to YoL.

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I think they were Bock a few years ago... reviews state that. Maybe after the negative nib reviews they changed suppliers? 
 

If someone is going to splash £1,000 or so on a YoL, then the Grand Viceroy is absolutely the better choice over the Standard, unless you prefer holding skinny pens, or the weight will make it unusable for you. Comparatively better value I'd argue.
 

I agree with you about the Victorian pattern absolutely being the one worth buying. I love my little Diplomat, but would MUCH prefer the unique hand made pattern over the ordinary pens- they just aren't special in the same way, don't require a fraction of the workmanship, and don't deserve such high price tags. Sure, it is made from silver, but we're only talking about £13-15 worth of silver for the smaller pens and £30 for the Grand. To put that into perspective, even at the current high precious metal prices, the silver content constitutes approximately 1.5% of the retail price of the Viceroy Pocket or Standard. (The gold contained in the nib would also fetch about £15.)

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by RJS

[aurore]

Viceroy Grand is visually definitely a very impressive pen (much more than Standard) - regardless the finish. And definitely Victorian finish makes it unique among modern fountain pens. 

Then nibs of Y-o-L pens have been JoWo for at least last 7+ years. And obviously Bock nibs were not replaced "after the negative nib reviews" (Bock nibs are used in tons of super expensive pens and are anything but bad) but rather because they (Y-o-L) now buy JoWo nibs from a nib expert who does an extra QC and eventually tunes or customizes the nibs. Which is rather wise in case of so highly (over)priced pens (and a classy aspect I would say).
Conway Stewart (hate calling them so, they are rather "British Bespoke Pens") use quite the same nibs (and indeed they used Bock nibs years ago - prior to their bankruptcy, then the BBP bought the spares and used the rest, later the BBP switched to JoWo). 
That said I would rate these nibs among the best currently used, they are more than decent (so are the feeds).

 

As for Grand vs. Standard. The latter is a slim pen and not a real eye catcher (just in case you care). Whether it is worth 1000 quid (or even 500) is just a matter of one's wish.

7-10 years ago even fully boxed mint Grand Victorian were sold 2nd hand for about 400 dollars (which I believe was a great deal regardless what the RRP used to be). But at 1750 dollars for a brand new now? Well, if it is worth to some, it is worth. And if isn't then it isn't. It is not about price of the silver used or finish or even the nibs. At 1750 for a stock pen you just either want it or not, no real deep thinking. Are some LE MB inks worth like 60 bucks? It is not a rational decision.

P.S.: As for the weight I would rate Grand between "a hefty comfortable pen" and "too heavy" (unposted). I like substantial pens but to me it was just a bit too heavy.

 

Whatever these pens are lovely pens (with a lifetime warranty btw) made by a great British company.

[ParramattaPaul]

  On 8/14/2021 at 10:52 PM, aurore said:

Conway Stewart (hate calling them so, they are rather "British Bespoke Pens") use quite the same nibs (and indeed they used Bock nibs years ago - prior to their bankruptcy, then the BBP bought the spares and used the rest, later the BBP switched to JoWo). 
That said I would rate these nibs among the best currently used, they are more than decent (so are the feeds).

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I  have two of the current Conway's, a Duro and a Churchill.  I can confirm that the nibs and feed are first rate.  I will add that having a current Onoto Magna, the nib and feed on it is also first rate.

 

NOTE:  'First rate' translates as 'superb'. 

[1nkulus]

  On 8/14/2021 at 7:51 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Because the piston doesn't extend all the way to the back of the feed, sometimes I have trouble with air bubbles impeding ink flow when the pen gets low.  The section on the AL is discolored from soaking it in ammonia solution; and because of the grooves on the section on the ALR, I have trouble getting it wiped clean after filling.  

But the problems people in the past talked about with the plastic cracking?  I haven't had that at all -- even after accidentally dropping one on the sidewalk.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

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Sorry about the issues. I never warmed up to them.

OTOH, you have avoided the cracks. Either way, the pens are still functional.

 

  On 8/14/2021 at 9:14 PM, RJS said:

If someone is going to splash £1,000 or so on a YoL, then the Grand Viceroy is absolutely the better choice over the Standard, unless you prefer holding skinny pens, or the weight will make it unusable for you. Comparatively better value I'd argue.

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+1

[1nkulus]

  On 8/14/2021 at 10:52 PM, aurore said:

Then nibs of Y-o-L pens have been JoWo for at least last 7+ years. And obviously Bock nibs were not replaced "after the negative nib reviews" (Bock nibs are used in tons of super expensive pens and are anything but bad) but rather because they (Y-o-L) now buy JoWo nibs from a nib expert who does an extra QC and eventually tunes or customizes the nibs. Which is rather wise in case of so highly (over)priced pens (and a classy aspect I would say).
 

As for Grand vs. Standard. The latter is a slim pen and not a real eye catcher (just in case you care). Whether it is worth 1000 quid (or even 500) is just a matter of one's wish.

7-10 years ago even fully boxed mint Grand Victorian were sold 2nd hand for about 400 dollars (which I believe was a great deal regardless what the RRP used to be). But at 1750 dollars for a brand new now? Well, if it is worth to some, it is worth. And if isn't then it isn't. It is not about price of the silver used or finish or even the nibs. At 1750 for a stock pen you just either want it or not, no real deep thinking. Are some LE MB inks worth like 60 bucks? It is not a rational decision.

Whatever these pens are lovely pens (with a lifetime warranty btw) made by a great British company.

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An apt summation and I fully concur. 

[RJS]

  On 8/14/2021 at 10:52 PM, aurore said:

Viceroy Grand is visually definitely a very impressive pen (much more than Standard) - regardless the finish. And definitely Victorian finish makes it unique among modern fountain pens. 

Then nibs of Y-o-L pens have been JoWo for at least last 7+ years. And obviously Bock nibs were not replaced "after the negative nib reviews" (Bock nibs are used in tons of super expensive pens and are anything but bad) but rather because they (Y-o-L) now buy JoWo nibs from a nib expert who does an extra QC and eventually tunes or customizes the nibs. Which is rather wise in case of so highly (over)priced pens (and a classy aspect I would say).
Conway Stewart (hate calling them so, they are rather "British Bespoke Pens") use quite the same nibs (and indeed they used Bock nibs years ago - prior to their bankruptcy, then the BBP bought the spares and used the rest, later the BBP switched to JoWo). 
That said I would rate these nibs among the best currently used, they are more than decent (so are the feeds).

 

As for Grand vs. Standard. The latter is a slim pen and not a real eye catcher (just in case you care). Whether it is worth 1000 quid (or even 500) is just a matter of one's wish.

7-10 years ago even fully boxed mint Grand Victorian were sold 2nd hand for about 400 dollars (which I believe was a great deal regardless what the RRP used to be). But at 1750 dollars for a brand new now? Well, if it is worth to some, it is worth. And if isn't then it isn't. It is not about price of the silver used or finish or even the nibs. At 1750 for a stock pen you just either want it or not, no real deep thinking. Are some LE MB inks worth like 60 bucks? It is not a rational decision.

P.S.: As for the weight I would rate Grand between "a hefty comfortable pen" and "too heavy" (unposted). I like substantial pens but to me it was just a bit too heavy.

 

Whatever these pens are lovely pens (with a lifetime warranty btw) made by a great British company.

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I agree with a lot of that, but not all. They "obviously" did not change nib providers to improve the nib, huh? A quick Google brings up many people dissatisfied with Bock nibs, including fellow members on this site. As far as having the nibs inspected and tuned- that should, in my opinion, be obligatory for £300+ pens, and YoL didn't need to switch to JoWo nibs to get that work done. 
 

And I can't tell if you're trying to agree with my comment that the value of the pen isn't actually linked to the quantity of silver, or trying to disagree with me?

 

By the way, the company has had a few owners over the years, including Filofax for a long time. The new owners are the ones that quickly moved to double/treble all the prices, so how "great" these new owners are is debatable at this point. Their poor website also suggests they don't care for their business very much. As does removing far and away the best version of the Diplomat (the Victorian) from the range for clear cost cutting/upselling of pricier models.

 

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As for Grand vs. Standard. The latter is a slim pen and not a real eye catcher (just in case you care).

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I'm confused? Not an eye catcher? In what way? It looks brilliant in Victorian trim, just skinny! The "just in case you care" bit is also weird? I literally owned one. Bizarre.

[1nkulus]

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

I agree with a lot of that, but not all. They "obviously" did not change nib providers to improve the nib, huh? A quick Google brings up many people dissatisfied with Bock nibs, including fellow members on this site. As far as having the nibs inspected and tuned- that should, in my opinion, be obligatory for £300+ pens, and YoL didn't need to switch to JoWo nibs to get that work done. 
 

And I can't tell if you're trying to agree with my comment that the value of the pen isn't actually linked to the quantity of silver, or trying to disagree with me?

 

By the way, the company has had a few owners over the years, including Filofax for a long time. The new owners are the ones that quickly moved to double/treble all the prices, so how "great" these new owners are is debatable at this point. Their poor website also suggests they don't care for their business very much. As does removing far and away the best version of the Diplomat (the Victorian) from the range for clear cost cutting/upselling of pricier models.

 

I'm confused? Not an eye catcher? In what way? It looks brilliant in Victorian trim, just skinny! The "just in case you care" bit is also weird? I literally owned one. Bizarre.

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I am unsure what the new owners bring to the table.

Is it a case of increase the prices and hope for the best?

 

If so, then if this idea fails it will be curtains for YoL.

I can't see the next owner reducing prices to increase demand.

 

IIRC, YoL is run by a staff of 6-7.

 

AFAIK, the switch to JoWo was purely for QC unless I am mistaken.

As for nib inspection/tuning, I would expect it for £500+ pens if not £300.

The primary aim is writing and I prefer not faffing about with nib QC at that price point.

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

I'm confused? Not an eye catcher? In what way? It looks brilliant in Victorian trim, just skinny! The "just in case you care" bit is also weird? I literally owned one. Bizarre.

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I overlooked that, it is odd.

 

The whole point of the Victorian is the uniqueness/statement else buy the Barley.

 

I think the point was that the Grand made a greater impact in terms of presence, just worded differently.

[aurore]

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

I'm confused? Not an eye catcher? In what way? It looks brilliant in Victorian trim, just skinny! The "just in case you care" bit is also weird? I literally owned one. Bizarre.

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Well, I was neither going to confuse you nor to hurt your feelings. What I meant was Y-o-L Victorian Standard finish looks lovely but Grand overall is a way more impressive pen for others (not for the user). So an eye catcher was purely in terms of another person. You disagree with it, it's your right. There is nothing bizarre about having an opinion (and btw I owned both Grand and Standard with Victorian finish).

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

A quick Google brings up many people dissatisfied with Bock nibs

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May I ask how many Bock nibs have you actually seen/used in your life? Browsing the internet is not quite an equivalent. Beside this, perhaps you might also do a search what brands still use Bock nibs. Btw Pelkan had been outsourcing nibs from Bock for M1000 before they started making them in-house. And those M1000 Bock nibs are often more appreciated among FP folks than the current production (and that not because they are/are not rarer). For instance OMAS used to buy flexy nibs from Bock and so does Stipula currently. And after all I am a happy user of several CdA pens and some Dupont - all with Bock nibs. 
The point is I am not trying to praise Bock nibs and definitely some of them are not quite perfect. But this goes for any nib by any band to be honest, no exceptions. 

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

They "obviously" did not change nib providers to improve the nib, huh?

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Well, honestly, unless you know the owners in person, which you probably do not, you cannot really know what and why they did.

There is also a huge difference between just 1) switching from Bock to JoWo (which is what you initially suggested was the case) or vice-versa and 2) getting JoWo nibs through a real nib expert who triple checks every nib and can do any nib work. 

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

As far as having the nibs inspected and tuned- that should, in my opinion, be obligatory for £300+ pens, and YoL didn't need to switch to JoWo nibs to get that work done.

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Should it? Perhaps it should. But mostly it is not. Inspected? Yes, somehow. Triple checked and eventually tuned? Nope, hardly ever.
Whatever they did or did not need to do is beyond my or your knowledge, with all respect. I can imagine JoWo might be more cooperative for the particular supplier (who supplies the nibs to Y-o-L), also the price could be a bit better than Bock (this is always an argument, even in case of 1200 quid pens).

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

And I can't tell if you're trying to agree with my comment that the value of the pen isn't actually linked to the quantity of silver, or trying to disagree with me?

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All I wanted to say was I can undersand people love the idea of using a solid silver (I am one of them). Neverthless it does not justify the pricetag at all.
Actually I have one pen which is not solid silver but is "just" rhodium coated and this process costs about the same as if it was solid silver (but not rhodium coated). 
So the whole solid silver ado in case of Y-o-L mainly contributes to the feeling their pens are something impressive and very special. And the decision to buy some of their pens is mainly based on that feeling, not on any part of the pen (such as nib) or the materials used. Just an opinion.

 

 

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:39 AM, RJS said:

 

By the way, the company has had a few owners over the years, including Filofax for a long time. The new owners are the ones that quickly moved to double/treble all the prices, so how "great" these new owners are is debatable at this point. Their poor website also suggests they don't care for their business very much. As does removing far and away the best version of the Diplomat (the Victorian) from the range for clear cost cutting/upselling of pricier models.

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There is nothing to argue about. I did not claim to appreciate their business strategy, nor I said I liked their website. My claim was meant to be a great QC and lifetime warranty (but such offer CdA and GvFC and some others). As for the warranty, I just always keep in mind MB which charges 80 pounds to replace a 1 pound component if more than 2 years have passed from the date of purchase or you do not have the papework.