Using Dye To Make Ink

[txomsy]

Sorry if I misunderstood. I was under the impression that "The dye is listed as non-toxic, all the colors, so probably a neutral aniline salt".

 

Of course, otherwise, there may be no reason to worry.

[BrassRatt]

The photo flo is the surfactant in this ink (approx 60% water, 30% propylene glycol, 10% Triton X-100).

I'm interested in this equivalence. Would it be plausible to use Triton X-100 directly, rather than the Photo-Flo 200 combination? Would the above proportions give the correct amount to try as an equivalent?

 

It's interesting that propylene glycol is (among other properties) a humectant, that in larger quantities would prevent complete drying. That's probably not of concern in the tiny amounts used in ink, though.

 

Thanks!

[BrassRatt]

OK, so here's my first attempt at homebrew ink to suit my particular pen/paper combination, inspired by Drive Dr.'s original post.

 

Trying for a dry permanent purple ink.

2020 01 18 10pm :

15ml glass bottle with plastic cone lid seal (I misremembered it as 20ml size)

glass eyedropper for glycerin

50ml plastic syringe to measure water

Mixed

18 ml Distilled water, grocery store grade

5 drops Glycerin, drugstore generic

1/2 tsp Blue Purple 810 MX dye powder from PRO Chemical

0 Photo-Flo (I didn't have any on hand)

Shook 20 seconds 3x

Left to sit overnight in ~50 F garage.

I don't have a pH meter.

- - - - - - -

2020 01 19 3pm :

Filter once through Starbucks sBCAB129 "Interactive Cup" filter paper from roll, in funnel, into clean 15ml glass bottle.

Call this "Composition 810 A".

Trial writing with Wanwou glass nib: super wet at first, but settles down to normal looking line.

Color is very dark and somewhat muddy, not the bright blue-purple I hoped for. Maybe too much dye. Swab looks rather pale on ColORite card.

Trial writing in Jinhao 992 (previously had BSB) writes slightly narrower line than BSB.

Trial writing in target pen Lamy 2000 with Mike Masuyama 0.7mm CI gusher -- looks decent, gives better linewidth variation than BSB 2:1 water on printer paper.

Trial writing on Tomoe River gives desomecent line variation, takes a very long time to dry, so probably still too wet / too much flow. Maybe too much glycerin.

Water restistance tests pending.

- - - - - - -

2020 01 20. 9pm :

Wrote with Composition 810 A on Tomoe River paper, using both Jinhao 992 and the target pen Lamy 2000, Mike Masuyama CI gusher.

Dry time: 5 minutes.

Tap water, 100 F.

Dipped up to line for 15 seconds, pulled straight up, placed on paper towel.

IMG_4489 shows setup; IMG_4490 shows just after removal (still wet).

Turned writing over and wiped against paper towel.

IMG4491 shows after wiping while still moist.

What I think I see:

Some ink washed away immediately. There was pale ink color in the water.

Some ink stayed in place. It was paler than before dunking but remained crisp.

Some ink redeposited, making pale halos.

For my purpose, this is not quite satisfactory. Although the writing remains, accidental smearing would be likely.

- - - - - - -

Observations? Suggestions? Thoughts?

[DiveDr]

Says non-toxic on the label.

[amberleadavis]

Thank you for sharing the experiment with us.

[BrassRatt]

I found the Composition shown above still too wet-writing, so I tried diluting it.

 

Usage report:

 

I have been using "Composition 810A" diluted 1:1 with distilled water for nearly two months now at work in a Lamy 2000 (medium) cursive italic on a PfFP Tomoe River notebook.

 

Likes:

It's about as dry-writing as any nice-color ink I've tried in that pen, and better than most;

It remains legible after smearing;

The color is near what I wanted;

 

Dislikes:

It smears, especially with moisture;

It is not dry enough for the paper/pen combination;

It shades (while many find this desirable, in my work notes I do not);

The color is still just slightly grayish, especially in the pale-shaded parts;

 

Next try will be without glycerine.

 

Has anyone else tried the DiveDr simple basic recipe yet?

[BrassRatt]

Another thing I'll probably try is adding some pH buffer to the mix. This risks precipitation, but if that doesn't happen it could help the color bond to the paper better and reduce smearing.

[DiveDr]

So haven't posted here and quite a while but have been diligently working on ink formulas. Also doing some chemical analysis on commercial inks. Dyes are most definitely the way to go. Commercial inks are definitely aqueous dye based with the exception of some pigment based samples that appear to be emulsified suspensions for the most part.

 

Have settled on pH balanced Proscion dye solutions with varying amounts of Photoflow and glycerine which produces excellent results. Really vibrant colors and yes, shading on good paper! Sample photos to follow and will give specific formulas if requested.

[txomsy]

Please do!

[DiveDr]

Here are examples of a vibrant orange on MIO paper with different nibs.

[DiveDr]

Here are some samples again on MIO paper with Proscion homebrew and commercial ink.

[amberleadavis]

@DiveDr Thanks for sharing.

[BrassRatt]

On 8/23/2021 at 10:27 AM, DiveDr said:

Have settled on pH balanced Proscion dye solutions with varying amounts of Photoflow and glycerine which produces excellent results. Really vibrant colors and yes, shading on good paper! Sample photos to follow and will give specific formulas if requested.

Would you please say what you add to achieve pH balance?  Some sort of pH buffer combination? 

 

Thanks!

 

[dezkant]

Hey guys!

 

New to the community, new to chemistry concepts, studied physics so I figure close enough ;). These posts have been incredibly helpful. I've just finished a black mix according to your 810A, @BrassRatt, as I also lack Photo-Flo (for now). I'll be messing around with this a bit and doing some testing. I'll plan to come back to post more. @DiveDr thank you so much for kicking off this thread. Wishing you the best in your experimentation and research!

 

An edit as I should mention I'm using Jacquard Products' 150 Jet Black Procion MX Dye

Edited February 8, 2022 by dezkant

[BulldogXTRM]

So I have made a permanent/waterproof ink that is black in color. I’m working on the actual formula to figure out the exact mixture, but the ingredients are:

 

Kamei sumi ink

Tide pod/water - surfactant

vegetable glycerin - humectant

distilled water

 

I will say that the ink is not a deep black once it’s mixed, but it’s about 30% sumi ink, 30% distilled water, 20% tide pod surfactant (to prepare this mixture/put all the liquid from the pod/all colors in a jar and then mix in 3.5 oz of water) and 20% glycerin

 

The ink is as permanent as Noodler’s Heart of Darkness black, and just a shade lighter.

The ink flows well, dries in about 3-5 seconds on most papers, doesn’t seem to dry out on the nib, and doesn’t clog.

 

If you find that it’s not flowing well enough, add more surfactant and humectant. Use a pen that you can wash out easily. You can wash this out easily with just water and it washes off your hands with just water. The scent of the tide pod covers the scent of the sumi ink so it has a pleasant smell. The ink flows well from every pen I’ve tried it with but I admit I haven’t put it in an expensive pen as of yet. I’ve been using it in a couple of Wing Sung 629’s, but it does seem to be working well. I have a PH meter coming in from Amazon along with some better surfactant (Triton X-100, active ingredient in Kodak photo-Flo), and some Mixol pigments. I’m going to try to mix an ink with the Mixol to see how that works.

 

I’ll report back later to let you know how it goes. I’d be interested in someone trying my Sumi Black Ink mix and let me know how it works for ya’ll.

[DiveDr]

So been at this for more than a cup of coffee.  Have gotten brilliant colors that flow really well, don't feather and are water resistant.  Looking at the pages over time no fading.  Have not seen any bad effects in any of the pens inked with the home brews.  Have dipped some vintage pens and rinsed quickly after writing.  Overall pretty good results.  Mixing colors, base orange with red, green and blue, very dilute to get a low saturation sepia gives great shading which was what I was after.  Best seen on good paper with a wet flex nib.  At this point I can get pretty much any characteristic I want in the palatte 🎨 in short work and all for about $1.00 per 500cc. I will only use this stuff in modern pens although it does not stain and can't see it eating ink sacs or feeds. This has been a great experiment over the years.  These inks have all the things I look for in Diamine, Noodlers, or any other brand, are non staining and fairly water resistant.  Am calling this one a success.

 

[DiveDr]

Update, I have filled two latex ink sacs with some homebrew.  One has inserted a small steel nib, broken ebonite feed, the other just ink.  Both are sealed with a stopper and shellac.  This should roughly approximate the internal conditions of a vintage pen inked with homebrew.  Will let them marinade for 2 weeks, why two weeks, why not?  Will post results, prayerful will be all good, we shall see...

[MadamBackslash]

On 12/27/2022 at 3:46 PM, DiveDr said:

So been at this for more than a cup of coffee.  Have gotten brilliant colors that flow really well, don't feather and are water resistant.  Looking at the pages over time no fading.  Have not seen any bad effects in any of the pens inked with the home brews.  Have dipped some vintage pens and rinsed quickly after writing.  Overall pretty good results.  Mixing colors, base orange with red, green and blue, very dilute to get a low saturation sepia gives great shading which was what I was after.  Best seen on good paper with a wet flex nib.  At this point I can get pretty much any characteristic I want in the palatte 🎨 in short work and all for about $1.00 per 500cc. I will only use this stuff in modern pens although it does not stain and can't see it eating ink sacs or feeds. This has been a great experiment over the years.  These inks have all the things I look for in Diamine, Noodlers, or any other brand, are non staining and fairly water resistant.  Am calling this one a success.

 

So how would a person go about replicating this gorgeous colour?

[DiveDr]

12 hours ago, MadamBackslash said:

So how would a person go about replicating this gorgeous colour?

Thank you very much for the compliment!  Proscion dye, 1/8 tsp blue, 2/8 tsp orange, 5 drops glycerine, 5 drops photoflow in 20cc reverse osmosis water.

 

Have been at this for years, can now make any color with any shading level I want and really don't buy ink much anymore.  I have a vintage pen parts experiment running and if it goes well will be inking my vintage pens with it.  I have been using it in all my modern pens without any adverse consequence for a year and a half.  It is not highly saturated, very easy to clean and really looks beautiful on good paper.

 

I have also been tinkering with sizing paper using gelatin, it turns 32 lb Hewlett-Packard LaserJet paper into the equivalent of rhodia or even Clairfontaine Triomphe.  So now I can pretty much write as much as I want for literally pennies compared to what ink and paper used to cost me before.

 

Local fountain pen friends have been asking me to sell them the stuff, I have been reluctant to do so because I don't want to inherit any liability for damage to their pens but depending on the results of the experiment I may do so.

[MadamBackslash]

4 hours ago, DiveDr said:

Thank you very much for the compliment!  Proscion dye, 1/8 tsp blue, 2/8 tsp orange, 5 drops glycerine, 5 drops photoflow in 20cc reverse osmosis water.

 

Have been at this for years, can now make any color with any shading level I want and really don't buy ink much anymore.  I have a vintage pen parts experiment running and if it goes well will be inking my vintage pens with it.  I have been using it in all my modern pens without any adverse consequence for a year and a half.  It is not highly saturated, very easy to clean and really looks beautiful on good paper.

 

I have also been tinkering with sizing paper using gelatin, it turns 32 lb Hewlett-Packard LaserJet paper into the equivalent of rhodia or even Clairfontaine Triomphe.  So now I can pretty much write as much as I want for literally pennies compared to what ink and paper used to cost me before.

 

Local fountain pen friends have been asking me to sell them the stuff, I have been reluctant to do so because I don't want to inherit any liability for damage to their pens but depending on the results of the experiment I may do so.

Awesome, thanks!