Objectively, How Thin Or Thick A Line Do You Require Your Nibs To Produce?

[bigjuice]

Depends on what I'm in the mood for, the ink, and what I'm writing on OR for. For crosswords, I like EF very thin lines. But for certain inks with a lot of variation, I love a thick line that shows the hues. 

[Aether]

To the OP, is there a specific reason to try and shoehorn the characters into a 5mm square space.  In my view Chinese written characters, from any era, are expressive in their visual presentation and benefit from being written at an appropriate size.  Not criticising, just wondering and telling my preferences. 😁

[A Smug Dill]

(Grrrr, how did this incomplete post get submitted and published?)

Edited May 15, 2022 by A Smug Dill
premature publication

[Strega]

During one trip to China I had to fill out a form in a police station (“just a formality") and I was given a form where the spaces for the answers were probably only around 5-6mm tall.  So, people routinely write Chinese characters in small spaces.  

 

Right now, the Chinese dictionary on my desk has 2.5mm tall headwords and 2mm tall body text words.  

 

For my Chinese class, I write my new/practice characters large and use a .5mm nib.  However, my teacher's homework pages don't give that much room so for the moment I am using my smallest nib (.34mm) for those, while I wait for a smaller nib from a nibmeister.

 

But then I have also tried using a brush with a "nib" over 1cm so I use quite a range!

 

[A Smug Dill]

On 5/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, Aether said:

To the OP, is there a specific reason to try and shoehorn the characters into a 5mm square space.

• 5mm is the most common spacing used in today's mass market notepaper products (as pads or books) on which dot or line grids have been printed as guides. I personally find grids are more helpful than just ruled lines in one orientation in keeping my writing neater, and that is particular important to me when I only started writing in Chinese again, after not having done so for three decades, in 2018 when I went all in diving back into the fountain pen hobby.
   
• I have a strong preference for high information density, visually and otherwise, even though some here may say my handwritten content is largely nonsense that hardly counts as information one way or another. I like to pack things extremely tightly and densely, in storage spaces and containers or on the page.  The composition of what I write or draw is usually dense with (perhaps avoidable) detail. I would, and in fact, detest writing in a 10mm square matrix; so using four squares on a 5mm grid per hanzi character is out of the question.
   
• Back when I was at school, long before dot grid paper was ‘a thing’, my preference was to use 5mm ‘graph’ paper pads for writing. Paper products made specifically for writing in Chinese tend to have ruled lines to ‘guide’ users to write in vertical columns of squares, starting from the left of the page, and with a distinct strip of white space between two adjacent columns. I don't particularly like that. To be fair, the squares are typically larger than 5mm on each side; so, assuming that they're designed for what are the ‘average’ person's handwriting preferences in Hong Kong and/or China, my tastes are probably in the minority.
   
• I can happily writing on 6mm or 6.5mm ruled A5 (or larger-sized) pages, but those certainly appear to be less common than 8mm ruled or even 7mm ruled, as well as 5mm dot or line grid, notepaper products. I can kinda understand why only the Japanese seems to provide (what I personally find) useful dots marking out equal intervals along the horizontal ruled lines, such that there is a virtual grid or one could easily draw neat vertical grid lines as required (without measuring with a ruler). However, I don't get the presumed preference for 8mm or even 9mm ruled lines for writing in an alphabet based language.
   
• English books and documents are usually printed with selection of font sizes that are considered suitable for reading for the average person; and 12-point fonts are not that tall or wide physically. Similarly, the size of each character on printed matter in Chinese is typically quite small, and yet not considered illegible or an impediment to reading. So, if there is a human limitation in play, it seems to be that of the ability to write small neatly, and not that it's difficult to read ‘small’ writing. Yet many ‘average’ folk in fact write quite small by choice, and their ability to (develop the skill to) do so is not extraordinary accomplishment.
   
• Writing small demands finer motor control and more precise execution of each movement. That is in keeping with the spirit of what I enjoyed most in my years of martial arts training: not about flair in executing ‘big’ showy moves, or performing fancy flourishes with one's weaponry in between contact manoeuvres, but focus on delivering short, quick, deadly or debilitating strikes with surgical precision. Expressiveness is implicit in one's preferred tactics and techniques, not whether a spectator (or reader) would think the observable form is artistic or has certain rhythm.
   

On 5/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, Aether said:

In my view Chinese written characters, from any era, are expressive in their visual presentation and benefit from being written at an appropriate size.  Not criticising, just wondering and telling my preferences. 😁

 

I do try to produce different styles of writing in the kaishu script by hand, and reproduce/mimic the forms and characteristics that set the styles apart. I'm just not very good at it yet.

 

All the more reason why I want nibs that will allow me to put down noticeably tapered diagonal pen strokes, and pointy upticks at the end of (the equivalent of) stems and bowls, in spite of the size of each character and stroke being scaled to fit a 5mm grid. To me, the answer to better adherence to proper form is not by scaling the size of the writing up. Practising the strokes that make up the ductus of a character, until one gets the hang of it, by writing larger is one thing; but, for actual capture of content in a notebook or journal, I don't think one should have to scale the sizing up in order to resolve the conflict between aesthetic considerations and practical limitations due one's handwriting technique.

[taimdala]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:12 AM, txomsy said:

 

So, whether the nib produces a thinner or thicker line is secondary to all other factors (including pen wetness, ink wetness, paper quality, circumstances and goals (among many others).

 

This eye stabbing light UI made me misread "goals" as "goats" !

 

Cue spit take!

 

LOL!

(Although, baby goats are indescribably cute, especially the way they jump around. I wouldn't mind having a few around for the sweet/cute factor.)
 

[taimdala]

But to stay on topic:

 

I prefer EF nibs, the finer the better. My Platinum Preppy <02> is a joy to use, especially on (bleep) paper. I haven't yet been able to try a Japanese UEF yet, but am hoping that I can find one at the Triangle Pen Show next month. I prefer to write tiny and draw with lots of bitty details, so EF is a must-have no-brainer choice for me.

[Recursion]

2 hours ago, taimdala said:

so EF is a must-have no-brainer choice for me.

Same here! I tried B, OM, M and F but is doesn’t seem to work for my tiny handwriting. Japanese fine nibs I can get away with and my favourite so far is the Pilot Custom 823 with a fine nib. 

[taimdala]

23 hours ago, Recursion said:

Same here! I tried B, OM, M and F but is doesn’t seem to work for my tiny handwriting. Japanese fine nibs I can get away with and my favourite so far is the Pilot Custom 823 with a fine nib. 

 

Oh gosh yes, anything broader than an Asian Fine or a Western Extra Fine writes like a fire hose, to my sensibilities. 

 

To be fair, I love how broader nibs showcase the shading and color and all the other lovely properties modern inks offer ... but I cannot stand how it makes my writing look. All the fine details are gone, flooded out by a broad deposit of ink. 

[Aysedasi]

I've always been a lover of broad nibs (no science involved here for me as to exact nib sizes).  In my work, I used to write every day on card and paper file covers that tended to vary considerably in quality.  The paper used was very poor photocopy paper and so bleeding and feathering was an issue, although I still used broad nibs.  Using a smooth broad nib laying down a lot of ink on the card covers was always an experience I enjoyed.  I'm retired now so my writing is much more limited than before, leading my wife to ask me why I am 'still buying fountain pens'.  I still go for broad or OB's when I can, although recently I've been using some Sheaffer Imperials with medium nibs which are silky smooth.  I'm quite heavy handed and I've always found fine nibs really hard to get on with, I'm also a leftie which may have something to do with the way I pull or push the nib across the paper.  I have one or two pens with fine nibs (mostly Chinese) but not a single one that I enjoy writing with.  

[mtcn77]

On 5/16/2022 at 11:14 AM, Aysedasi said:

I still go for broad or OB's when I can

There is great wisdom in making that choice, broads have tremendous writing speed. I find EF tedious. I don't have the eyesight to accommodate to a handwriting that doesn't consume any ink, personally I would rather browse a page in plain view than do tedious work.

[Vintage_BE]

On 5/15/2022 at 6:01 AM, A Smug Dill said:

5mm is the most common spacing used in today's mass market notepaper products (as pads or books) on which dot or line grids have been printed as guides. I personally find grids are more helpful than just ruled lines in one orientation in keeping my writing neater

@asmugdill When I started practicing “American cursive”, written at a 52 degree slant, I used printed guidelines that are put underneath the paper. That made me switch from ruled to “blank” paper. I use guidelines with an x height of approx. 2,2 mm. The width of my strokes varies with the nib that I use, see enclosed pictures. The nibs that work best for me are (I think) European “EF” size; the line width on my downstrokes (slight pressure) is approx. 0,4mm (see pictures).
 

[Strega]

Due to my impatience in waiting for a nibmeister to get a fine (.2-.25mm) Pelikan nib to me, I bought a Sailor 1911S. 

 

The Sailor EF (~.2mm?) nib was quite a change from the Pelikan EF (~.4mm) so I decided to challenge myself.  I have a Stalogy notebook which has 4mm gridlines and I tried writing Chinese within those.  And with a Sailor EF nib, that can be done.  At least for the basic 简体字 that I am currently learning like: 意，着，最，建，事，送，跑。

 

To do this I took off my progressive glasses and hunched over the paper to fully embrace my nearsightedness. It was also a test of my fine motor control which is getting somewhat worse as I age.  So, I can’t say it was exactly comfortable, but it was a fun experiment. 

 

Years ago, I had been impressed that Chinese people were filling out forms with roughly 6mm characters, and with the Sailor EF, that’s now seems quite reasonable.

 

Now the only question is: do I “need” more Sailor EFs while I wait for my nibmeister. 😀

[ParramattaPaul]

I'm happy with a line between 1 and 2mm, with nothing finer but wider is okay.  That equates to a B. 

 

Why?  Just because.

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, Strega said:

Now the only question is: do I “need” more Sailor EFs while I wait for my nibmeister. 😀

 

Sailor EF nibs are among the very finest nibs one can just buy and consistently get out-of-the-box.

 

But, if you're of a mind to buy more pens, I'd recommend also trying out Platinum and Pilot gold EF nibs, for comparison if not sheer variety. They're all quite usable for writing even the most complex traditional Chinese hanzi in a tight space.

[Strega]

Well that’s always the trade-off – buying different pens gives variety, but buying the same model gives interchangeable parts which encourages taking them apart and otherwise messing with them.  We’ll see…

[A Smug Dill]

27 minutes ago, Strega said:

… buying the same model gives interchangeable parts which encourages taking them apart and otherwise messing with them.  We’ll see…

 

I'm not sure what's there to “mess with”, if you just love the 14K gold Sailor EF nib for what it is and the way it writes, to the point of being keen to buy more pens fitted with such.

 

For what it's worth, the Sailor Profit Standard, Professional Gear Slim and PGS Mini, (discontinued) Promenade, (new) Profit Light, Koshu-inden, and Kabazaiku models all use the ‘same’ medium-sized 14K gold nibs with the 1911 imprint. Some will have different finishes, e.g. rhodium-plated instead of plain yellow gold. I suppose you could get a medium-sized 21K gold EF nib for a Profit Standard, just to have something different but interchangeable, although interchangeability may depends on whether the parts that make up the gripping section are glued together; in my experience, some gripping sections come apart easily, while others take physical effort and treatment with heat. The Koshu-inden models (love 'em!) only come factory-fitted with MF nibs, and the Kabazaiku model only comes factory-fitted with M nibs, if I recall correctly.

[Strega]

Thanks!  There are a couple in there that I hadn’t heard of. Deer skin – I did not see that coming.

 

Messing with means altering for various reasons, anything from fixing a nib to switching inner caps to give a semi transparent pen more “substance” (ie clear inner cap to darker inner cap.)  I feel I know my way around Pelikans quite well.  For other pens I know much less about their construction.   According to my parents I’ve been disassembling things all my life.  Often to their annoyance. 😀

[Strega]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:11 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 although interchangeability may depends on whether the parts that make up the gripping section are glued together; in my experience, some gripping sections come apart easily, while others take physical effort and treatment with heat.

 

Do you happen to know what glue these use?  I just opened one, and it appears to be a pretty "mild" glue - soft, flexible, wasn't overly hard to unscrew - white(ish) in color.  I'm just wondering if its worth re-applying anything similar when reassembling.

[liberdom]

This is an interesting topic.
In the case of Korea, most characters can be written if there are 15 horizontal spaces including blank spaces when describing general content. And note spacing is usually between 5mm and 7mm, so a thickness between 0.33mm and 0.46mm is suitable. Corresponding pens are EF and F in Japan and F in Western countries.
If you want to put East Asian characters on paper with 5mm spacing, only Japanese EF nibs are available.
Of course, this will be thicker on absorbent paper or wet pen or ink.