Making Pilot Blue Black Wetter?

[minddance]

Yes I have a bottle of it already. But this ink is too dry in this pen and I don't enjoy the way the pen writes filled with it

 

Edit: One more question @minddance: what papers do you think are best for inks? Everyone talks about Rhodia and such, so I thought these are the papers of choice.

I must apologise for not making myself clear. Allow me to rephrase: I do not like Rhodia.

 

Yes, everyone talks about Rhodia and many reviewers use Rhodia.

 

It depends on what aspect(s) of inks one is looking for. And why one uses Rhodia. I find Rhodia rather good for shading and revealing the lighter tones in inks. It also minimises bleedthrough and feathering and makes line width finer.

 

Now, why I dislike Rhodia: it minimises nib contact with paper because it is hard and coated and not very absorbent. And I write very lightly. Inks turn out paler than I like. And I use fine and extra fine nibs. All these make the lines very weak and even jagged. Most of my pens feel very dry on Rhodia including a rather juicy Pelikan M1000F. I totally dislike this sensation. It is also slippery, i find it encourages me to rotate/roll my pens while writing, so I always go in and out of the sweet spot of the nibs.

 

But Rhodia papers (as with all papers) have 2 rather different sides. The other side is slightly more absorbent, that is the better side for me.

 

I use a very cheap writing pad that is made by Kokuyo China. Not the Japanese ones. The Japanese Kokuyo do not absorb inks properly enough for me. They are either too slippery or too feedbacky. I do not usually buy expensive papers though I have stacks of Rhodia, Clairefontaine, Tomoe river etc. My nibs glide smoothly on the cheap paper and work excellent with Japanese fine and extra fine nibs.

 

What I use may not be the "best for inks" but best for me and my nibs.

 

Very often, I want the darker shades of an ink from my fine Japanese nibs and I want to minimise shading of certain inks. Rhodia does not do that for me. I value legibility above shading and sheen and what not. And I want smoothness and paper to feel like paper, not a dead hard cold surface.

 

I do not pour ink onto papers and do not use wet-noodle flex nibs. For that, i am convinced Rhodia would probably be the paper.

 

So please don't mind me, enjoy your Rhodia/Clairefontaine

Edited February 17, 2019 by minddance

[cellmatrix]

Yes, I unscrew the blind cap every time I pick the pen up. Unless I only write two words and put it aside for longer time.

 

Okay, then I will continue to use the Clairefontaine papers I already have because I really like them.

 

As far as pen cleaning is concerned, I rinse the pens with tap water until the water comes out clear. After that I fill them with the cleaning solution available by Rohrer & Klinger (it's a fountain pen cleaner, developed for their Dokumentus line I believe), let that soak for 5 minutes and clean the pen from this solution. Finally I fill the pen once more with tap water and let this water be soaked out by paper towels with the pen stored nib down on them. So I think it is not as good as with an ultrasound cleaner, but it should be almost clean. At least the last fill with water on the paper towel shows no visible trace of any colour.

 

I've had some problems mixing iron gall or other types of permanent inks between fillings, even if I rinse good in between, which has given me inconsistent and reduced flow with inks I feel should have flowed better. Once a hard residue has built up inside the feed, then even good cleaning solutions like the one you are using might not dissolve it. Perhaps getting a cheap ultrasound unit can help you. Its a modest investment in your fountain pen career and something you will use time and again. Same thing as a loupe. Its a modest investment, but if your nib starts to run scratchy or flow decreases, just aligning your tines carefully can make a big difference.

 

As far as paper, yes I like clairefontaine too. But one other source worth exploring is cheap dollar store paper. Some brands are really good, especially those made in southeast asia or india. Its hit and miss, but if you find a brand that works well for you then you can stock up at a very low price.

[minddance]

To OP: if you are willing to forgo the Rhodia/Clairefontaine for one moment and use the exact combination of Pilot823 M with Pilot BBlack on say, a receipt or rice paper, or any thinner/absorbent paper, you would get what you want.

 

This is something many people here are unwilling to say.

[Brianm_14]

I agree that your paper (Rhodia and Clairefontaine) may be part of the problem, based upon my own experience. These brands are not ones to use if you are having fountain pen or ink issues. Try "pulling" ink through the nib-feeder with a paper towel, then writing on a different brand of paper once you have a good flow going. If you can't get a good flow with paper towelling, well . . . you have established a valuable clue to the source of your problems.

 

I find a good source of paper is to look for paper made in India or the USA for school notes. It is usually quite cheap. Trial-and-error will show which is best. Often, I try the paper out in the store by making a small line on the back page in a place where it won't even be noticed. Considering that I will buy 10 or 20 of these inexpensive notebooks if I find one that "works" for my pen, my conscience is clear!

 

Cleaning your pen sounds like a good idea, too. Make sure the nib/feeder get a soak for at least a half hour in cool water to which a drop of dish detergent has been added and mixed. This should soften any remaining ink residues. Then rinse by gently forcing cool water through the nib-feeder with a rubber bulb. Follow up with ammonia in water or a pen cleaner. Give it time. Don't be surprised if you see yet more ink appear. Remember, even ammonia in water doesn't work instantly!

 

"Ironically, Herbin would be something which I like and I would love to try out Bleu des Profondeurs. But the 823 is impossible to fill from these bottles, which is a shame. And instant rebottling of the inks is also...not the best thing IMO."

 

Not the best thing? Why NOT rebottle? Simply use another ink bottle (available from several online suppliers) or any suitable bottle -just be sure to thoroughy clean, rinse, and then disinfect the bottle with an hour-long soak in dilute bleach solution (rinse very, very well afterward), or by immersing completing in water in a pan and bringing the water to a full boil. Let the water cool until you can remove the bottle with your bare hands.

 

To add dishwashing detergent (Dawn is the preffered brand) or Kodak PhotoFlo, dilute a a drop or two of the wetting agent with about 20 - 30 drops of water. Boiled water is best. Then dip a toothpick into this small volume, wetting the toothpick, and use the toothpick to transfer the detergent to about 5 ml one teaspoonful) of your ink. Do not add to your stock bottle of ink!

 

You can repeat this and add more dilute detergent if need be after some trial and error experimentation. If you find an improvement, you can easily figure out how many dips of the toothpick are needed for a bottle of ink. But make sure you try your sample of ink with all the pens you intend to use with this "wetter" ink. Keep notes along the way, too!

 

All of this requires patience, but the satisfaction of success will amply reward you. Good luck, and let us know how things turn out!

Edited February 17, 2019 by Brianm_14

[minddance]

To the op: you might be pleased to know some Herbin colours come in 100ml bottles, maybe the BProfondeurs isn't one of them but Poussiere, Eclat, Bleu Nuit, Noir, Lie de The are. They flow effortlessly and can work with Rhodia (quite well actually) with your pen.

 

Or also please have a look at inks like Diamine Blue Velvet, Teal, GreenBlack, Rohrer & K Verdigris, Permanent Blue (slightly shadier), Aubergine. They will work well in your pen on Rhodia/Clairefontaine.

Edited February 18, 2019 by minddance

[khalameet]

I think I will move on from the Blue Black of Pilot.

I will give the ink one final try in another very wet pen, my Custom 74. If it doesn't fit, I will try to find a sample which I really like and stick with this.

The tinkering with the ink is not what I want. I thought I can just put a drop of soap in it and it would solve the problem but that was very naive. I will rather find an ink which does what I want out of the bottle.

 

Thank you all for your help!

[LizEF]

Edit: Herbin Bleu des Profondeurs seems to be quite nice. But there is only one (although excellent) review here.

I would like to see some more of this ink.

I could order a sample but in germany samples are not easy to find and I don't like to order only one sample online before I am not entirely convinced.

And I forgot something: The 823 is almost impossible to fill from the Herbin bottles.

 

I'm getting ready to do a review of this ink in a Japanese EF nib (per this thread). It will be at least a couple weeks before I'm ready to release something, as this will be my first review, but I wanted to let you know that this is a very wet ink. It's darker / more saturated than Pilot Blue/Black. It is a tiny bit to the purple side of blue, and less a blue-black than a deep, dark blue.

 

For you, not my review, I wrote on both HP 24lb Premium Laser paper and 20lb copier paper, let them have several minutes to dry, then held them under the tap. Both did very well - a bit of color washed off, but by no means all, and both were easily readable. On the crappy paper, I got feathering and halo-ing, but this is normal to me with copy paper + water. A scrub with a wet Q-Tip only smeared some of the color around, but still left things readable. If I persisted on the copy paper, the paper started to come apart. The premium paper may have done that eventually, but I gave up. How the ink might respond to other solvents (ammonia, bleach, etc.), I have no idea, but hope this was helpful to you.

 

In case that helps any.

[sirgilbert357]

But then again, which ink to pick?

 

Most Diamine inks are no option for me, not necessarily because they are not water resistant, but the smearing of those inks even after they are dry for hours just bothers me too much.

 

Souboku is almost impossible to get here, and the colour does not appeal me.

 

I don't know a blue black which is as nice as the Pilot (or rather as it could be). Only ink which would really be my favourite is the Platinum blue black, but that one is way too dry in this particular pen

 

Ironically, Herbin would be something which I like and I would love to try out Bleu des Profondeurs. But the 823 is impossible to fill from these bottles, which is a shame. And instant rebottling of the inks is also...not the best thing IMO.

 

 

It sounds to me like you're going to have to accept a compromise of sorts at least somewhere in your preferences. Either try the ink in a different pen, or try the J. Herbin ink and just fill the pen from a sample vial. I used to fill all of my pens exclusively from sample vials to keep the bottles as clean as possible -- and to open them less often. Sample vials hold about 5 ml, so you would have plenty of ink to fill your 823, despite the pen's generous ink capacity.

 

I don't know why your pen would flow the Diamine inks so heavily but not the Pilot ink. I don't think your pen is dirty or clogged though. Some inks just repel the plastic feeds to a degree and don't flow as well. You could try getting an ebonite feed for your 823 if they are available (I think they are made by someone, but not sure you could easily get one). The nibs are just friction fit, so it would be relatively easy to swap the feed.

 

Failing that minor pen mod, I'd try adding Photoflo or pure glycerine to the ink, as I've seen recommended on FPN multiple times. Good luck. I know how frustrating it can be to have the ink you want and the pen you want and for them to not play well together. I bought a blue striped Pelikan M805 with the intention of permanently dedicating Sailor Hatsukoi to it, but as I write, the feed fins fill up with ink and eventually become a drip hazard, so I'm searching for a different ink for that pen. That is the ONLY ink this pen has issues with...really frustrating.

[sirgilbert357]

To add dishwashing detergent (Dawn is the preffered brand) or Kodak PhotoFlo, dilute a a drop or two of the wetting agent with about 20 - 30 drops of water. Boiled water is best.

 

 

Not all water quality is the same. I'd recommend distilled water if possible.

[khalameet]

In the meantime I obtained a bottle of Bleu des Profondeurs (after trying a sample). The colour is really lovely, but it is darker than what I wanted. No shame, because I will still use it in my ink rotation along with Eclat de Saphir, which is really nice as well.

I emptied some sample vials and washed them with dish detergent and let them soak some time to make sure they are clean enough and fill them now with syringes directly from the Herbin bottles. The sample vials are quite nice for filling any vacuum fill pens, didn't think about this, so thank you for this hint.

 

However, my obsession with the Pilot Blue Black is not over yet. I tried it again in a very wet Vanishing Point. This pen is so wet that various free flowing inks like Herbin's Bleu Nuit even start to bleed on Clairefontaine 90g paper. What makes me wonder: I filled the VP with the blue black again (after cleaning it thoroughly). Now the pen feels very dry and does not lay down a wet line anymore. The ink looks even more pale than it did in the 823. I then primed the feed by twisting the converter about a mm out so that one drop of ink came of the tip of the nib. The first few lines I wrote after that showed an unbelievable gorgeous, dark blue colour - the colour I expected from this ink. But then the feed seemed to run dry again and now it is the same pale colour as before.

 

I am wondering if there is just something wrong with my bottle of the ink. I read everywhere that it is a very free flowing ink. But that is not my experience.

[minddance]

why must you absolutely use Clairefontaine? Pilot Blue and BBlack do not interact well with Rhodia/Clairefontaine unless your pen drips inks onto the paper.

 

change your paper if you love your ink.

[sirgilbert357]

In the meantime I obtained a bottle of Bleu des Profondeurs (after trying a sample). The colour is really lovely, but it is darker than what I wanted. No shame, because I will still use it in my ink rotation along with Eclat de Saphir, which is really nice as well.

I emptied some sample vials and washed them with dish detergent and let them soak some time to make sure they are clean enough and fill them now with syringes directly from the Herbin bottles. The sample vials are quite nice for filling any vacuum fill pens, didn't think about this, so thank you for this hint.

 

However, my obsession with the Pilot Blue Black is not over yet. I tried it again in a very wet Vanishing Point. This pen is so wet that various free flowing inks like Herbin's Bleu Nuit even start to bleed on Clairefontaine 90g paper. What makes me wonder: I filled the VP with the blue black again (after cleaning it thoroughly). Now the pen feels very dry and does not lay down a wet line anymore. The ink looks even more pale than it did in the 823. I then primed the feed by twisting the converter about a mm out so that one drop of ink came of the tip of the nib. The first few lines I wrote after that showed an unbelievable gorgeous, dark blue colour - the colour I expected from this ink. But then the feed seemed to run dry again and now it is the same pale colour as before.

 

I am wondering if there is just something wrong with my bottle of the ink. I read everywhere that it is a very free flowing ink. But that is not my experience.

 

 

Hmm. I'm starting to wonder if your ink is bad too. I don't see my carts of Pilot Blue Black exhibiting this kind of behavior. It's not as wet as Iroshizuku, but it has never made a wet pen write dry for me...I have a 30ml bottle on the way to me from Japan, so we'll see if the bottled stuff acts differently than the cartridges I have, but I don't see why it should.

[sirgilbert357]

why must you absolutely use Clairefontaine? Pilot Blue and BBlack do not interact well with Rhodia/Clairefontaine unless your pen drips inks onto the paper.

 

change your paper if you love your ink.

 

I might have missed it, but is that the only paper he is using? If so, changing his paper affects all his other inks and pens too. All of my pens write wonderfully with Clairefontaine - it's actually the only paper I use, after having sampled a myriad of papers. If only ONE of my inks didn't play well with the paper, I certainly wouldn't switch papers...especially if the ink seems to be behaving counter to how it is usually described and expected to act.

 

But if he isn't using only one type of paper, then trying a different paper might be a good idea just to see what happens. I still think the ink is behaving strangely and a new bottle should be tested against the old...

[khalameet]

@minddance: I tested various papers. I tried the Clairmail 60g copy paper which handles all other inks in a superb way, but the result is the same.

Oxford Optic Paper (Black and Red) and various notebooks bought at a local retailer or a supermarket chain (Aldi) are either not suitable for inks at all, because almost every ink I tested on started to feather or bleed, or, in the case of Oxford, give the same result. That were all the papers I had the opportunity to test, I didn't bother to order papers in the internet, because 1) usually the Clairefontaine Notebooks I use handle every ink really well and 2) I don't really know what I could test

Papers like TR are not option, I use about 400 sheets of paper in more or less two months, which makes the price of paper important. CF is almost too expensive, but I enjoyed the paper quality and fount nothing which I liked more so far.

 

Regarding the ink: I have two of the 70ml bottles, but both are nearly identical.

I begin to suspect the ink-pen combination. I put the ink in a TWSBI Eco with an EF nib, and suddenly the ink starts to show...even with the EF nib. It's a shame that the ink does not work with a Pilot pen and a very wet medium nib...I never really enjoyed the Eco because of the fine nib and I considered it as dry.

I will test this in another pen, but as I only have 3 pens I use for writing (only a C823, C74 and VP) and not marking, there is only one possibility left: my Custom 74, also medium. But I don't expect different results from it...

Edited February 27, 2019 by khalameet

[minddance]

I have this ink. While the lighter shades will be pale, you should have a decently dark blue if using a medium nib. See here.

is this what you get? from the picture in this post?

 

maybe you could show us what results you achieved that you don't like?

Edited February 27, 2019 by minddance

[khalameet]

Small update: I refilled my Custom 823 with the blue black yesterday.

For some reason, the ink looks much darker. I don't know if this is because I cleaned the pen again or something else. I even compared it to earlier writing samples. It is definitely not the same.

 

This ink is a mystery. I will write a few fills now and look what happens.

 

But if it stays like this, this ink could be my one ink. But then there are new problems: what do I do with my other inks, which will then get obsolete?

[minddance]

if you leave it in your pen for a few more days or a week, it will be even darker, for months it will sheen. same goes for many other inks.

[Mechayoshi]

is this what you get? from the picture in this post?

 

maybe you could show us what results you achieved that you don't like?

I’m confused. I’m not the OP so I’m fine with the color. I was showing that my bottle is dark enough.

[minddance]

Im confused. Im not the OP so Im fine with the color. I was showing that my bottle is dark enough.

I was trying to quote your picture to ask OP if this is what he got. because this is the only picture here, but I couldn't get the picture to show, silly me. sorry for the confusion.

[Mechayoshi]

I was trying to quote your picture to ask OP if this is what he got. because this is the only picture here, but I couldn't get the picture to show, silly me. sorry for the confusion.

Makes total sense, sorry.