Pilot Custom Heritage 91 Soft Fine/extra Fine Question

[oraxia]

I fear I may already know the answer to this question, but I want to be sure that I'm not just missing something (my Google-Fu is notoriously weak)--does the Pilot Custom Heritage 91 in Tsukiyo (or any of the other colors) come in the soft fine or soft extra fine nibs (like the ones on the Pilot Falcon/Elabo)? I've only seen listings for the black CH91 with a soft fine nib, so I'm also kind of trying to make sure that's not a typo (and checking if the black comes in the soft extra fine)? Sorry if this should be obvious.

 

For extra background, I'm considering making my first purchase of a non-cheap pen for potential everyday carry, and I like the idea of having a little flex (and was kindly allowed to try a SEF in a Falcon at my first pen show). I started with pointed dip pens and then fell into fountain pens by the happy happenstance of inheriting one, but I understand that fountain pen nibs are a slightly different animal in that arena, so I'm tempering my expectations. I have read that the FA nib can be more finicky than the SF/SEF, so I figure I'll start with the soft family of nibs and then perhaps consider the FA for next time. I was looking at the Falcon/Elabo and then came upon the suggestion that the same nib could be had in the CH91 for cheaper and the CH91 looks rather like the CH912 (which is what I'm hoping to get an FA nib in eventually), and I came to fancy the idea of potentially getting the CH91 in Tsukiyo. Leaning towards the SEF over the SF to maximize line width variation.

[KLscribbler]

Alas, no. I have a black Custom Heritage 91 in Soft Medium; before I bought it, I searched far and wide for a long time to find any possible opportunities to get the soft nib options in pen body colors other than black. Unfortunately, the answer I found at every turn was that it is Pilot's policy to implement the non-standard nib options (i.e. anything other than normal EF, F, sometimes FM, M, and B ) only in black pen bodies.

 

IIRC this applies not only to the Custom Heritage 91, but to the other pens in the Custom series as well (so, for instance, if you want a soft nib in a Custom 74, you can also only get it in a black pen.)

 

It's a shame - I had personally wished to have my Custom Heritage 91 in the Yama Guri brown color, but it was not to be. Sometimes I still get the itch to just buy a second Custom Heritage 91 with one of the standard nibs, just to do a nib swap with my existing black one.

 

On a side note, be advised that the Soft nibs on the Custom Heritage 91 are neither similar nor comparable to the ones on the Falcon / Elabo series, and are decidedly not meant for flex writing. The softness in this series of nibs is mainly for writing comfort, to satisfy the customer group which prefers less stiff nibs in normal writing. It is not designed to be flexed out for calligraphic purposes. Moreover, if you do try to flex out a Custom Heritage 91 soft nib, you'll find that most of its "flex" consists of the tines moving away from the feed, without much tine spread - therefore you will not get much line variation, not until you push the pen way too hard.

 

If flex writing is your primary intention, you would be better served by getting a pen with an FA nib, or at least a Falcon/Elabo, though even with the latter, you have to be careful not to push it too far as it's designed more for Kanji calligraphy (with shorter strokes) rather than the long flowing movements of English cursive flex writing, which will put more stress on the nib. Anyhow, you do have experience with dip pens, so at least you'll have a decent sense of when you might be pushing a nib too hard.

Edited January 20, 2019 by KLscribbler

[akrohn2010]

Yup - black pens only. You could try to find the nib separately but they seem hard to find.

 

I had a black CH91 for a while - can confirm everything KLscribbler said above. Definitely not a Falcon level of flex but the SF nib did produce a small but noticeable amount of variation due to the different amount of ink laid down based on pressure.

[oraxia]

Alas, no. I have a black Custom Heritage 91 in Soft Medium; before I bought it, I searched far and wide for a long time to find any possible opportunities to get the soft nib options in pen body colors other than black. Unfortunately, the answer I found at every turn was that it is Pilot's policy to implement the non-standard nib options (i.e. anything other than normal EF, F, sometimes FM, M, and B ) only in black pen bodies.

 

Aw, Pilot, whyyyyyyy? That seems really silly given that they're obviously interchangeable, but I suppose a policy is a policy...

 

On a side note, be advised that the Soft nibs on the Custom Heritage 91 are neither similar nor comparable to the ones on the Falcon / Elabo series, and are decidedly not meant for flex writing. The softness in this series of nibs is mainly for writing comfort, to satisfy the customer group which prefers less stiff nibs in normal writing. It is not designed to be flexed out for calligraphic purposes. Moreover, if you do try to flex out a Custom Heritage 91 soft nib, you'll find that most of its "flex" consists of the tines moving away from the feed, without much tine spread - therefore you will not get much line variation, not until you push the pen way too hard.

 

Ah, I thought they were identical--the couple of threads I'd found mentioning the CH91 made it sound like a cheaper pen body with the same nib in it! I guess I'll go back to looking at the Falcon/Elabo, then, because that's the pen I had tried and felt I liked. I'm not really looking at this to be a calligraphy pen per se, as I do expect to be using it more as a daily writer or writing letters to friends, but it is nice to be able to get some line variation in my normal handwriting with the option to add a bit of calligraphic touch if it works for whatever I'm doing. Thank you very much for this clarification!

 

 

Yup - black pens only. You could try to find the nib separately but they seem hard to find.

 

I had a black CH91 for a while - can confirm everything KLscribbler said above. Definitely not a Falcon level of flex but the SF nib did produce a small but noticeable amount of variation due to the different amount of ink laid down based on pressure.

 

I actually had done a little minimal poking to see if the nibs were available separately, but they seem to be close to the price of the pen itself from what I did see that looked like it was correct, so that makes grabbing a second pen sound smarter... except that I probably would have only wanted the one for now At least the Falcon can come in red, although that's not typically my color. Thanks for the input! It sounds like the flex levels are basically FA, then Falcon soft, then CH91 soft, then.

[JulieParadise]

All of the above: Yup. That is the way it is.

 

Since I do own both (two) CH 912 FA and a Resin Falcon SEF I find the FA nibs much more suitable for daily writing, given that you normally write with a light hand. It is also a lot softer and shines, when you want to flex it. The SEF can be finicky although I would not describe it as scratchy. It is just reeeeeally fine. I like it but find it demands a lot more concentration when writing which probably is not what you need for a pen you use longer.

 

I do use my SEF nib for small margin writing, calender annotations, German Kurrent etc. The FA I enjoy using for longer writing.

 

Another consideration: At least my FA nibs make every ink shine. Whatever I put into these the inks show their most beautiful side, be it shading, sheening, shimmering, glitter. And they are servicable as the nib is friction fit and can be pulled out easily. Nothing you wanna do all the time, but the possibility is there and at least for me makes me also use these with document / pigment inks.

 

And yeah, I am with you: Boooooring pens, much too plain and also too big for my liking, but the nibs are worth it.

 

Edited (typos)

Edited January 21, 2019 by JulieParadise

[KLscribbler]

AFAIK the only options for a Pilot soft nib that is not in a black pen are the various Falcon pens - the resin falcon is available in a nice red (it's a bright firetruck red, really lovely), the metal falcons come in various metallic colors but cost more. And in any case a Falcon of either the resin or metal kind would suit your intended usage (daily writing with occasional use of a bit of flex) better than the Custom 91. If you really really want more flex, you could also buy a Falcon from John Mottishaw and have him modify it for added flex.

 

On the other hand, if you are interested in the FA nib and want it a non-black pen body, there's actually one workaround, with caveats. You can get an FA nib in a Pilot Custom 823 in a color of your choosing (the available colors being clear demonstrator, translucent amber, and translucent dark smoke.)

 

The caveats are:

 

- This combination (FA nib in a Custom 823 of any color) is a shop exclusive sold only by the pen shop Asahiya Kami Bunguten (アサヒヤ紙文具店) in Kugahara, Japan. They are also known by their webshop Tokyo Quill Pen Store (so at least you don't have to fly to Japan to buy this). You can only get it from them at their list price of 30000 Yen (about US$ 275). They aren't known for having any discounts... and this pen also goes out of stock for long periods at a time, so you may face a waiting list of several months' duration, depending on when you order.

 

- The 823 is a rather big pen which you may or may not find comfortable

 

- It is also rather expensive for an everyday carry pen.

[oraxia]

I do use my SEF nib for small margin writing, calender annotations, German Kurrent etc. The FA I enjoy using for longer writing.

 

It feels somewhat stupid of me that I hadn't really thought about what the pointiness of the SEF might mean for everyday writing... This is an excellent thing that you've brought up, thank you! I've been wobbling between trying the SF or the SEF, but I mostly was thinking about the end product (the writing and it's appearance) rather than how comfortable it might be to write with. I admit to still being a neophyte in the realm of fountain pens, which hopefully explains my oversight. I really wish I had a good brick & mortar I could visit and try out all the options I'm considering side by side...

 

 

Another consideration: At least my FA nibs make every ink shine. Whatever I put into these the inks show their most beautiful side, be it shading, sheening, shimmering, glitter. And they are servicable as the nib is friction fit and can be pulled out easily. Nothing you wanna do all the time, but the possibility is there and at least for me makes me also use these with document / pigment inks.

 

I don't trust myself enough to try servicing one on my own, but that's good to know! Also, I'm kind of surprised to hear this of the FA nib, because it seems like I typically read about people having serious railroading issues, or that some of the nibs and/or feeds come out of the box functioning poorly (and I'm not experienced enough to recognize issues, nor am I equipped or skilled enough to try and remedy them). Did you need to have your FA nib modified at all, or are you using it essentially as it came out of the box? I've heard tell of a Spencerian modification for calligraphy, but I'm not sure I'd need that since I do have my pointed dip pens as well.

 

 

AFAIK the only options for a Pilot soft nib that is not in a black pen are the various Falcon pens - the resin falcon is available in a nice red (it's a bright firetruck red, really lovely), the metal falcons come in various metallic colors but cost more. And in any case a Falcon of either the resin or metal kind would suit your intended usage (daily writing with occasional use of a bit of flex) better than the Custom 91. If you really really want more flex, you could also buy a Falcon from John Mottishaw and have him modify it for added flex.

 

I've heard that name as the person to go to for the Spencerian modification on the FA nib, actually (which was what I was considering getting later for doing more calligraphy type things than just daily writing, but JulieParadise's comment about daily writing comfort has me wondering if I haven't got that backwards now). Very good to know, and I'll have to check it out--thanks! And yes, I was waffling between the red and the black & gold... I like bright colors, but the black and gold is a classy combo

 

Also good to know about the Custom 823, but it does seem like a rather large pen and I'm not opposed to the look of the CH912, and I can probably deal with having a plain black pen. (And you're spot on about it being a little pricey for an everyday carry! But then again, I'm still getting used to the idea of carrying around a pen that costs more than a dollar.) I'd love to have a pretty pen, but I can always put pretty ink in a plain pen with a good nib to make it feel special

[JulieParadise]

Out of the box? One CH 912 was new, a friend purchased it for me on eBay Japan for 137 Euro incl. shipping to Germany, this one was perfect from the start. At the same time this friend ordered his CH 912, used for ca. 80 Euro. His pen had been abused, rather, tines misaligned and very skippy, from zero to firehose. I pulled nib and feed and bent the tines back in shape and now everything works again. No further modifications necessary.

 

I don't think you need special knowledge to service those pens: the nib has little wings which only fit onto the feed in one way, this package then can be pushed into the grip section, pretty much the same as other Pilot pens like the Prera, Kaküno, Plumx, Penmanship etc.

 

And my pens are fairly new, March 2016 and September 2017, according to the stamping on the nibs, so I assume this hasn't changed.

 

To be honest: Now that you have & ask all these detailed questions I'd be surprised if you didn't end up buying both anyway. I do not regret having both models and using them for different purposes.

Edited January 22, 2019 by JulieParadise

[JulieParadise]

To clarify: This friend was somehow so disappointed with the whole transaction and his pre-owned pen not working that even after my repair he could not warm to it. That is how I came to buy it from him for 80 Euro. I would have gladly paid more, to be honest, but he did not let me ;-)

[A Smug Dill]

Also, I'm kind of surprised to hear this of the FA nib, because it seems like I typically read about people having serious railroading issues, or that some of the nibs and/or feeds come out of the box functioning poorly

 

 

I absolutely detested my Pilot CH912 with FA nib for either everyday writing (in English and Chinese) or producing 'calligraphy'. I am better able to live with the SF nib on my Namiki Falcon and the SFM nib on my CH91. (The SF nib on my C74 sucks, and normally leave a wetter and broader line than the SFM nib on my CH91 when writing with 'no pressure'.)

[oraxia]

I don't think you need special knowledge to service those pens: the nib has little wings which only fit onto the feed in one way, this package then can be pushed into the grip section, pretty much the same as other Pilot pens like the Prera, Kaküno, Plumx, Penmanship etc.

 

To clarify, It's not that I think I need special knowledge, it's that I think I need knowledge, period! Pretty sure I have none. I really haven't done more than ink and flush a fountain pen so far and I'm just nervous about taking things apart that I might not be able to get back together--I have a knack for screwing things up, so I generally don't tinker if I don't have to ^^;;

 

But it's good to hear that you didn't have to do any adjustment to your initial (new) pen. I think that's my biggest fear, that it would come out of the box defective and that I'm not experienced enough to know the difference, and that I might end up disliking it for the wrong reasons when it might actually be the pen I'm looking for. Or conversely that I'd think it was defective when it isn't and waste the seller's time.

 

 

To be honest: Now that you have & ask all these detailed questions I'd be surprised if you didn't end up buying both anyway. I do not regret having both models and using them for different purposes.

 

I think the endgame is that I probably would have both, but my art supply budget won't let me have both immediately (meaning it might be a couple of years between pens), so the trouble is picking which one first to start playing with (and improving my handwriting). Is one more beginner-friendly than the other? I sort of would like to learn to do a little illustration with them as well, now that I've realized what nice fine lines I could get out of a fountain pen that was kind of hard to get out of a felt tip (my really fine Sakura Microns can only do so much before I inevitably damage the tip, but I haven't destroyed any dip nibs yet).

 

Or I could ignore my budget, but I feel like that could get out of hand far too quickly :3 (It happened with yarn several years back. I still to this day have a LOT of yarn.)

 

I absolutely detested my Pilot CH912 with FA nib for either everyday writing (in English and Chinese) or producing 'calligraphy'. I am better able to live with the SF nib on my Namiki Falcon and the SFM nib on my CH91. (The SF nib on my C74 sucks, and normally leave a wetter and broader line than the SFM nib on my CH91 when writing with 'no pressure'.)

 

This is the kind of opinion I've seen frequently regarding the FA nib, although some folks seem to stop hating it once they have some form of modification for the feed to give the nib more ink? Did you hate it just for the feel of the writing, or the railroading, or...? I'm sad that it didn't work for you even with Chinese, since the prevailing argument is always about how it's for writing katakana, hiragana, and kanji.

[Driften]

To save money in your budget you should be looking at Japanese imports not buying from a US dealer. The downside is you won't have any warranty here in the US, but it will cost much less. Enough less that you could pay some one to adjust or fix it and still cost less money. There is a pen show in SF every year and I think there are pen meet ups you can go to. Maybe someone at a meet up will have a pen with the FA nib you can try, or if you have issues with ink delivery help you change out the feed.

[minddance]

Buy from vendors that have good exchange/refund policy.

 

I have gone through 3 Pilot 74SF, only the 3rd is less problematic.

 

Be prepared for tooth and not so much softness on a custom74. Maybe the custom 91 nibs are different.

[A Smug Dill]

Did you hate it just for the feel of the writing, or the railroading, or...? I'm sad that it didn't work for you even with Chinese, since the prevailing argument is always about how it's for writing katakana, hiragana, and kanji.

It's been a while since I, um, got rid of it :cough:, but the way I remembered it:

• it was capable of leaving a very narrow line, with a light hand and 'no pressure', but somehow never bounced back quickly enough after a swell on the downstroke to deliver fine enough hairlines joining letters in cursive English writing;
• the tines spread and flared too readily to make (for example) a triangular nà stroke in Chinese kaishu writing, and the result looked more like a raw grain of rice; and
• it didn't regulate ink flow well enough to match the varying width along a pen stroke, leaving the swells too dry and the thinner 'hairlines' (which it didn't do well) immediately following the swells too wet.

The Namiki Falcon with SF nib I have isn't that much better (but certainly not worse than the CH912 FA nib), and maybe I now have such low expectations now I just don't push it to perform any more; mostly I just write with its nib in upside-down orientation.

[oraxia]

To save money in your budget you should be looking at Japanese imports not buying from a US dealer. The downside is you won't have any warranty here in the US, but it will cost much less. Enough less that you could pay some one to adjust or fix it and still cost less money. There is a pen show in SF every year and I think there are pen meet ups you can go to. Maybe someone at a meet up will have a pen with the FA nib you can try, or if you have issues with ink delivery help you change out the feed.

 

Is that something typically done through eBay? Or through Japanese websites? Pardon my naivete--I can barely read any Chinese, let alone Japanese, so I'm not really sure how to accomplish that in English (Google translate can only do so much...)

 

There is definitely an SF pen show, I went to last year's as my first ever pen show (yay!) and that's actually where I heard about the FA nib from another tortured soul trying to catalog every ink in the ink tryout stations XD (I had no idea what I was getting into, and I definitely failed my self-assigned mission, LOL.) I believe it's in August, though... I probably should wait until then, honestly, but I'm itching to try out the inks I keep buying... (I should also stop doing that.)

 

There is also a Pen Posse on Sundays in the area, but I haven't gone in quite some time due to having to work weekends, so I feel a little sheepish trying to ask someone to bring something in for me if I have no idea if I'll even make it to the next one (plus I don't know that many people there yet, but they've been nice so far). Perhaps the plan should be to wait until I can start making those meetings more regularly and then see if anyone has something I can try out and move forward from there. That's a good suggestion--thank you

 

Buy from vendors that have good exchange/refund policy.

 

I have gone through 3 Pilot 74SF, only the 3rd is less problematic.

 

Be prepared for tooth and not so much softness on a custom74. Maybe the custom 91 nibs are different.

 

Whoa, ouch Duly noted, thanks for the warning!

 

It's been a while since I, um, got rid of it :cough:, but the way I remembered it:

• it was capable of leaving a very narrow line, with a light hand and 'no pressure', but somehow never bounced back quickly enough after a swell on the downstroke to deliver fine enough hairlines joining letters in cursive English writing;
• the tines spread and flared too readily to make (for example) a triangular nà stroke in Chinese kaishu writing, and the result looked more like a raw grain of rice; and
• it didn't regulate ink flow well enough to match the varying width along a pen stroke, leaving the swells too dry and the thinner 'hairlines' (which it didn't do well) immediately following the swells too wet.

The Namiki Falcon with SF nib I have isn't that much better (but certainly not worse than the CH912 FA nib), and maybe I now have such low expectations now I just don't push it to perform any more; mostly I just write with its nib in upside-down orientation.

 

Interesting... so you didn't actually like either of the pens/nibs I'm thinking about getting? Hmn. Not really promising for my prospects, LOL! Granted, I've never thought of trying to accomplish the traditional brush stroke shapes with anything other than a brush (or brush pen), but now I'm curious if you have something that does do all of that? My bet would be it's something vintage and thus not as easy to instantly replace, but I gotta know what kind of fountain pen can masquerade as a brush!

[oraxia]

To save money in your budget you should be looking at Japanese imports not buying from a US dealer.

 

Okay, so I can find a listing on Amazon which looks to be fulfilled by SASUKE.JAPAN (which appears to be a Japanese seller selling through Amazon)--is this what you mean? Is $150-ish an okay price for the CH912 w/FA nib? A Falcon with a SEF nib appears to be in the same price range from most places (SF on Amazon is a little cheaper, but not dramatically). I feel like I'm missing something important...

[Driften]

Yes both Amazon and eBay have lots of options for buying from japanese dealers. One thing to note is now Amazon is collecting tax even if things are shipped from Japan. I have noticed that with some other places as well.

[A Smug Dill]

Interesting... so you didn't actually like either of the pens/nibs I'm thinking about getting?

I have, or at least had bought and owned:

• a Pilot Custom 74 with #5 SF nib;
• a Pilot Custom Heritage 91 with #5 SFM nib;
• a Pilot Custom Heritage 912 with #10 FA nib;
• a Namiki Falcon with SF nib; and
• two (or three, if you count the one I bought my fiancée) Platinum #3776 Century pens with SF nibs.

The one(s) I 'like' the most is the Platinum #3776 SF nib, followed by the the Pilot #5 SFM nib, and then closely after that, the Namiki Falcon SF nib. I haven't tried the Namiki Falcon (or Pilot Elabo) SEF nib, but it's on my watchlist, although not a high priority for me to acquire and try out.

 

My normal handwriting is 'small' compared to a lot of other people's writing samples posted on FPN, especially when I write in Chinese; I try to fit each (traditional) hanzi inside a 5mm square, irrespective of its complexity. Using a 'hard' gold Fine nib actually works very well for me in terms of producing the right shapes for kaishu, and some steel nibs are OK too.

 

I've never thought of trying to accomplish the traditional brush stroke shapes with anything other than a brush (or brush pen), but now I'm curious if you have something that does do all of that?

No, I don't, but I enjoy using my 21K gold Naginata Concord nib (on a boring black Sailor 1911 Large) in upside-down orientation (i.e. slit facing the paper surface, and the 'bird beak' pointing towards the top edge of the page) when I'm trying to write kaishu any larger. The point of the 'bird beak' isn't that fine, so it's a little bit of a struggle sometimes to write Chinese characters inside 5mm square with it, although it's possible to do. What that nib won't do is give you the sort of hairline-swell-hairline-swell-hairline line width variation within a continuous stroke for cursive English writing.

 

I also have a Naginata Concord Emperor nib, still sitting unused fitted on a Sailor pen that has remained factory-sealed in a plastic sleeve for the past six months since I acquired it.

 

I don't actually know if I'd fare better with the fine-tipped Kuretake brush pen (which takes a converter as an internal ink reservoir) I bought my fiancée when writing small. She hasn't inked it up yet and so I haven't tried it for myself.

 

My bet would be it's something vintage and thus not as easy to instantly replace, but I gotta know what kind of fountain pen can masquerade as a brush!

The Naginata Concord nibs are not easy to get, but not irreplaceable either, even though their creator has passed away a few years ago, and newly manufactured stock of such nibs have gone up in price (officially, per Sailor's MSRP) by a double recently. Edited January 27, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[oraxia]

Yes both Amazon and eBay have lots of options for buying from japanese dealers. One thing to note is now Amazon is collecting tax even if things are shipped from Japan. I have noticed that with some other places as well.

 

Ah, thank you for the heads up on taxes--that is a little weird now that you mention it... (Death & taxes, though )

 

The one(s) I 'like' the most is the Platinum #3776 SF nib, followed by the the Pilot #5 SFM nib, and then closely after that, the Namiki Falcon SF nib. I haven't tried the Namiki Falcon (or Pilot Elabo) SEF nib, but it's on my watchlist, although not a high priority for me to acquire and try out.

 

Interesting, I thought Pilot was the only game in town for the soft nibs, that's good to know!

 

 

The Naginata Concord nibs are not easy to get, but not irreplaceable either, even though their creator has passed away a few years ago, and newly manufactured stock of such nibs have gone up in price (officially, per Sailor's MSRP) by a double recently.

 

Upside down! I can't really even wrap my head around that one, but I'll take your word for it (and the results look great)! But wow... I did a quick Google on those Naginata nibs and they seem to be quite a bit out of my price range But I'll file that one away for the future, for sure... (And the Platinum.) Thank you so much for your help!

[Olya]

To throw even more info your way: I don't have a soft nib by Pilot (I don't have any soft nibs), but Pilot's regular n°5 gold nibs are pretty soft and I've read by a member here who has soft & regular Pilot n°5 nibs that there's very little difference between them..