Doric Pen Burping

[KingRoach]

Hi all, this has to be the right forum to ask this question so I really hope to get some useful input.

 

I've recently bought this Wahl Eversharp Doric 2nd generation, senior saphhire blue with no.9 adjustable nib and a shut off valve in tip top condition. It has its filling mechanism repaired by a renowned pen restorer very recently.

 

The pen burps.

 

I am trying to pin point the source of the problem. One thought is the obvious: there is a leak somewhere. Another is the possibility that ink remaining in the feed during filling, drops down eventually. Another possibility is that the pen is just like that. I wouldn't know because this is my only Doric. Another possibility is that the nib and feed aren't positioned properly.

 

I cannot personally eliminate the first option. When I got in touch with the pen restorer, I got a very rude response and he was refusing to even consider the possibility or the need to look at the pen and even blocked me. You don't block someone with an item you're warranting. So I'm on my own for a while until I am able to get back in touch, but I need ideas as the problem could be somewhere else anyway.

 

To eliminate the 2nd possibility, I cleaned up the nib and really well with a tissue draining most/all excess ink that could make the feed wet or saturated at all. I got good behaviour for a short while and put the pen to one side. The next day I picked it up, still with good behaviour, but the fluid is slowly starting to show accumulating under the nib. Total writing time is less than 5 minutes for both days.

 

Third and fourth possibilities, I'll need your help with. Do Dorics burp naturally? Any ideas what it might be? What can I do at home to troubleshoot and try out where the leak is from? I have repaired pens and mechanisms myself, but I am not willing to even touch this pen with any attempt at disassembly long as there is a warranty on that repair.

I hope someone can help me out get this pen figure out. It has been a very meaningful purchase to mark the end of a very exhausting 7 year journey, and I still haven't been able to use it or enjoy it, and even starting to feel I've been screwed (given the bad attitude coming from the repairer who was basically just being full of himself and his impeccable repairs).

[Ted F]

Just a wild guess but the problem might be with the ink shut off. I understand these are problematic and really didn't work. I believe the valve had to be discontinued.

[KingRoach]

It may have had a role, I wouldn't know of course unless I disassemble it myself which I'm currently not willing to do. I've tested the shut off arm to see how effective it is, and it seems to actually have a considerable effect. When pressed by hand, shaking the pen a little, sometimes no ink (water tested) drops at all. When it's open, the pen drops ink much more easily. I'd like to think that the shut off valve is free and operational as a form of enquiry, barring certain items to help me consider other possibilities.

 

I've now inked the pen again (Diamine Grey) and have written with it for a couple A4 pages.

What I made sure I do is clean the nib and feed post-filling to the point where I can't assume ink has accumulated around the feed.

 

Writing normally without any pressure, a small ink blob appears and can hardly be seen by shining a light, between the nib and feed on the far back end. It looks normal, and I feel the feed needs to have that much ink at least to provide for the nib when flex is used.

 

When used flex, initially I had a drier experience compared to before (remember I cleaned off the nib and feed real good) and then after a while, ink started to accumulate further under the nib. It's not got to a point where it's blobbing to a drop, but apparently, when flexing the nib, more of that ink "burping" happens. Is it more overflow than a burp? (the difference being that a burp can either be caused by a vacuum leak or ink pressed out by a hot air bubble. I don't think the Doric, if healthy, burps due to warm hands, that wouldn't make sense, so that leaves either a leak or overflow taking place when flexing the nib).

 

I have also noticed that the feed leaves a gap in the middle away from the feed, similar to Cross feeds. I don't think this is relevant but just something I noticed. It does make me thing that when you flex the nib to near maximum, I guess it parts away from both the front of the feed, AND the middle of it since there is that natural gap. Do you think that would make an excess of ink run in the feed for that reason?

Sorry if that was too long.

[KingRoach]

By the way, even if the ink shut off is faulty, that alone shouldn't make the ink flow to an excess or burp. Even if the thing did not exist altogether, the pen should still deliver the right amount of ink to be considered... well... a pen.

[KingRoach]

Okay just wrote literally two lines with no pressure at all and got a blob of ink behind the nib. No pressure, no flex, no heat from my hand. Just gravity.

[Ted F]

Behind the nib? Do you mean under the nib (between the nib and the feed) or under the feed? Behind the nib would be up in the section. And, one drop of ink comes down on the paper when it "burps"? If you shake the pen does the ink come out easily?

 

I'm just trying to visualize what is happening. I'm surprised no one else has chimed in since there seems to be a lot of technically oriented forum members.

[bass1193]

Also consider that water is, surprisingly, a terrible wetting agent. Ink often has flow aids meant to help it wet surfaces, which will make ink leak faster than plain water in many situations.

 

This is why some inks are wetter than others, because of flow agents used, or dye ingredients having different properties.

Edited December 5, 2018 by bass1193

[Ted F]

  On 12/5/2018 at 4:53 AM, bass1193 said:

This is why some inks are wetter than others, because of flow agents used, or dye ingredients having different properties.

 

When I use a wet pen I use a dry ink such as Edelstein. It makes a big difference.

[Newton Pens]

Sounds like poor fit between nib/feed and the section or housing in the section. It's possible that with disassembly (maybe multiple times) the fit between the parts has gotten loose and it's allowing too much air in. Not sure about yours, but a lot of old Wahl pens used threaded nib housings like this- (from five star pens)

http://0104.nccdn.net/1_5/0b1/1bd/1f0/we327.JPG

 

It's possible the housing the nib and feed fit into is cracked or the opening has become worn out so that, while tight and not wobbling around in there, the fit just isn't tight enough to stop too much air going in and ink blobbing out. I had problems with this a lot when I was making feeds for handmade or vintage nibs in my pens. It can be a real pain in the butt.

[Ron Z]

The shutoff only comes into play when the cap is screwed down on the pen. The tab on the bottom hits the end of the inner cap and is pushed back, pressing a cone on the end of the nib unit against the rubber seal. With the cap off, ink is supposed to flow freely past the seal, so it likely is not the cause of the flooding, The seals are usually hard unless they have been replaced. There was a time when pen mechanics would simply remove the seal.

 

I may have missed it, but I don't see how the pen fills. Lever or plunger filler...

 

If a pen blobs or floods, its because air is getting into the sac or barrel if a plunger filler. There are a number of causes, and any answer would be just a guess if I gave a difinitive answer. If the pen has a sac improper installation, like not cleaning off all of the old sac or no shellac, or a sac with a pin hole, can cause it to leak. Plunger fillers can leak around the packing unit if not repaired properly, or sometimes just because something has come loose since it was repaired. It doesn't take much of an air leak for a pen to flood. On plunger sealers, no thread sealant on the threads can cause a pen to flood.I suppose a loose nib unit might cause flooding, but I doubt it.

[KingRoach]

Thanks all for coming in.

 

It's a plunger filler.

I think the nib/feed are fitted with at the end of the section, which requires disassembly to access. Therefore i don't think I can just pull out the nib and feed at all.

 

I know water has different flow properties, this is why when I conducted the test with water, I knew it was gonna be different with ink.
Now that I have ink, it's flowing more as expected.

The ink is accumulating UNDER the nib, between the nib and feed. Blobs of ink are gathering on the two sides of the feed under the nib shoulders and towards the tip. If it gets any bigger, it blobs onto paper.

 

It is confusing because, if it is an air leak, you'd get consistent ink drops falling until you run out of ink. This isn't happening. It's very slow, and seems to grow worse with writing.

[Ron Z]

No. A small leak will give exactly the kind of `problem you're describing. Suspending the pen nib down is exactly the way I test piston fillers for a leak. If there is one, you'll see the ink gather around the nib and feed, and eventually form a drop.

 

I suspected that its a plunger filler. Either the leak is in the packing unit, or there is a leak somewhere at the end of the barrel, perhaps around the outside of the packing unit, but likely the packing unit itself.

[KingRoach]

I tried blowing air into the back/packing unit to see if it's gonna add any amount of pressure to make a visible leak any faster. It did not seem to have an effect.

[KingRoach]

2x A4 pages yesterday with average pressure (the pen really isn't a full flex one, it's just enough to make your writing interesting. I think it's a pragmatic nib, really), and the overflow seems to be rather controlled. Definitely wet under the nib, but hasn't blobbed into a drop. I wonder why my experience has been inconsistent. If it continues to be inconsistent, I'mma think of nib/feed positioning as the culprit, which is actually a good culprit to have.

[Newton Pens]

Could also be the ink. Some inks don't work well behind vintage feeds.

[KingRoach]

I'm using Diamine Grey right now. I've also used one more ink, which might have been Diamine Prussian Blue. If I remember correctly, both behaved similarly. I don't know if anyone has any info on these particular inks. I'm willing to try another ink even though I often find one ink I like for a pen and stick to it. I may still have some Parker Quink left, being a generally accepted "safe" ink for all pens, but I don't know how that would would act in a plunger filler with a huge feed.

Any recommendations so I can keep an eye? I wish to persist to see if I can finish a whole fill without a burp this time.

[Newton Pens]

Waterman and Sheaffer inks are really nice. Pelikan, Montblanc, Lamy. I'd start with one of those.

[KingRoach]

I have a Waterman blue black and Waterman Florida blue. I like the latter. i could try that next.

Until then, I got some more ink blobbing yesterday, so as you can see, it can be pretty inconsistent. But I'm still thinking of the nib/feed relation as a factor. They seem to be quite well fitted in place but since this mostly happens when flexing the nib, I'm thinking either the pressure is pulling the nib upwards a bit, or the exposed part of the feed when the nib is pushed back is causing more ink to be drawn out.

 

Does ANYBODY have a similar pen and can describe their experience with it?

[mariom]

My Doric suddenly started dripping ink after being fine since I got it a couple of years ago. I thought it might have been heat, so I refilled only to find it had dumped all its ink into the cap.

 

Bit the bullet and opened it up and sure enough, the sac had a hole. A new sac has fixed the problem.

[Wahlnut]

As mentioned by a few, an air leak is probably at the root of the problem. Tight fitting of parts at the front rbd seems likely. If the packing initcat rear of barrel were at fault the filling of the pen would be inefficient and irratic or no fill would happen. In addition to items mentioned above by Ron, A cracked nib at joint with nib feed collar can do this, A cracked nib-feed collar that holds the nib and feed can cause this.