Syringe Ink Filling Gone Wrong (Pilot)

[Aminah]

I was glad to finally give in to fear about using syringes to refill ink. Saving money on cartridges made it sweeter. Well, today I finally decided to try the method. So far, it's a flop for me. I'm wondering is the Diamine Shimmer ink the problem? Could it have stopped up my nifty Pilot Metropolitan? (Love this pen)

 

I've pushed and pushed. There is nowhere else for the re-used cartridge to go (thinking maybe I didn't push it down enough). I have cleaned the nib and fill. Newbie, I'm kinda stumped. For what its worth when drying the nib after rinsing ink comes through the small round hole at the top of the tines . . . . but nothing through the nib for writing?

 

Any ideas?

 

Thank you.

 

Lyric

Edited November 27, 2018 by Lyric

[GardenWeasel]

Im at a loss on what could be causing the problem. Once I fit a cartridge, I gently squeeze the cartridge to push ink into the feed, and then lightly tap the nib against the paper until I see a tiny dot of ink. Ive never needed to do more to get ink flowing.

[tamiya]

Does this Metro use Standard International or Pilot proprietary cartridges?

 

Pilot carts are sealed by a little disc, I grab it with haemostats and yank it out before refilling.

 

Standard International usually seal with a little ball, it's fine to leave that in there whilst refilling.

[KBeezie]

Does this Metro use Standard International or Pilot proprietary cartridges?

 

Pilot carts are sealed by a little disc, I grab it with haemostats and yank it out before refilling.

 

Standard International usually seal with a little ball, it's fine to leave that in there whilst refilling.

 

 

If it's the MR sold in Britain it's standard international, but the Metropolitan/Cocoon/MR everywhere else in the world is the Pilot carts which have a wide mouth and can hold about 0.9ml syringe filled, has a little disc that can be removed after cleaning.

 

Also filling thru a cartridge, the feed hasn't been saturated with ink like the converter method, you just have to give it a far bit of time for the ink to work it's way into the feed and promote capillary action and this can take a few minutes the first time of just inverting the pen pointing down then back up and so forth depending on the ink.

 

 

I've never had a problem with this method, it can just be slow if the pen has been recently cleaned and uninked for a while, but once it's going, it'll be just fine. You don't want to be squeezing or pushing on the cartridge to force the ink thru.

[Aminah]

Does this Metro use Standard International or Pilot proprietary cartridges?

 

Pilot carts are sealed by a little disc, I grab it with haemostats and yank it out before refilling.

 

Standard International usually seal with a little ball, it's fine to leave that in there whilst refilling.

 

Proprietary. It is a disc as I wondered how that would affect re-use. I didn't pull it out not knowing I needed to. Thank you.

[Aminah]

 

 

If it's the MR sold in Britain it's standard international, but the Metropolitan/Cocoon/MR everywhere else in the world is the Pilot carts which have a wide mouth and can hold about 0.9ml syringe filled, has a little disc that can be removed after cleaning.

 

Also filling thru a cartridge, the feed hasn't been saturated with ink like the converter method, you just have to give it a far bit of time for the ink to work it's way into the feed and promote capillary action and this can take a few minutes the first time of just inverting the pen pointing down then back up and so forth depending on the ink.

 

 

I've never had a problem with this method, it can just be slow if the pen has been recently cleaned and uninked for a while, but once it's going, it'll be just fine. You don't want to be squeezing or pushing on the cartridge to force the ink thru.

 

Okay, thank you. It has not been dry as its my EDC. But, I didn't pull the disc out. So far this morning it is still not flowing. I'm at work and I've had it nib down all night. When I get home I shall remove and pull the disc.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Lyric

[KBeezie]

 

Okay, thank you. It has not been dry as its my EDC. But, I didn't pull the disc out. So far this morning it is still not flowing. I'm at work and I've had it nib down all night. When I get home I shall remove and pull the disc.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Lyric

 

It's possible that if the disc ended up flat after you put it back in, that could be blocking it. Where the disc is originally placed it'll be knocked sideways by the 'nipple' in the back of the section. I usually just remove it because it has no purpose there other than to keep the ink from spilling until it's installed (though some people have had some luck putting the disc back in the right spot just so they could syringe fill multiple carts and take them with them).

 

If that still doesn't work, try giving the pen a flush/clean, especially if the ink you are syringe filling is not the same as the ink previously in the pen, the mixing of two different inks can have a variety of random impacts such as turning into sludge and clogging up the feed, or something a fair bit more drastic (like when Noodler's Baystate blue comes into contact with just about any other ink) and melting the feed/plastic/etc.

[tamiya]

Yeah the disc works like a butterfly valve in a carburettor... if you're not careful realigning it when stabbing the cart back into the section it *might* reseal it but it'll now be resealed further down where the section's spike can't reach.

 

I did some topping up today too, 4-5 pilots where I haven't yanked the disc out. Disc can also help create an air bubble blocking liquid entering - it squirts back out

[Uncial]

The Diamine Shimmer Inks are very cloggy - at least, that's my experience. Oddly enough, even when you filter out the 'shimmer' (which is what I ended up doing with a couple of mine) the ink (depending on which one) sometimes reveals itself to be very thick, having an unusual viscosity for an ink. Brandy Dazzle, for instance, has a 'thick' viscosity. I presume they do that to ensure that the 'shimmer' is more easily kept in suspension, but the result is that there are some pens that simply will not react well to them. I don't use these types of inks in anything that has a fine or extra fine nib and isn't already an extremely wet writer.

[KBeezie]

The Diamine Shimmer Inks are very cloggy - at least, that's my experience. Oddly enough, even when you filter out the 'shimmer' (which is what I ended up doing with a couple of mine) the ink (depending on which one) sometimes reveals itself to be very thick, having an unusual viscosity for an ink. Brandy Dazzle, for instance, has a 'thick' viscosity. I presume they do that to ensure that the 'shimmer' is more easily kept in suspension, but the result is that there are some pens that simply will not react well to them. I don't use these types of inks in anything that has a fine or extra fine nib and isn't already an extremely wet writer.

 

Haven't had any experience with Diamine's shimmery inks, but I would think with Pilot's proprietary converters/carts that there is no bottleneck as far as the ink reservoir goes compared to most other filling systems. That being said, the metropolitans always seemed like they were a tad on the wetter side for their feed channels and that most of the dryness if anyone was usually from their Fine nib (or EF if you grab one from a Pilot Penmanship) being a bit tighter at the tines.

 

Though that does make me think of something :

 

When syringe filling either a sample vial or cartridge (or just pen filling in general) with shimmery inks (though I would do it with all inks out of practice), it may be a good idea to make sure to give the ink a good shake/agitation before transfering from bottle/vial into vial/cart/pen. Without the ink properly agitated/mixed you can either end up with something way too thin, or too thick, or have settling (Especially if you draw up with a syringe from the bottom). Something like Noodler's bulletproof or lubricated inks for example can have problems like flow, or super long drying times if the ink isn't well mixed in the pen.

[tamiya]

Haven't tried Diamine Shimmertastic... sounds like a colloidal liquid

Acquired some JH 1670s but haven't yet gotten enough patience to try them out.

 

Don't think I'd try them in a Metro first off though; I'd prefer something wet & gushy. My Metros can be dryish when fed Pelikan 4001; they're OK on Parker Quink or basic Pilot ink, but they really sing with Irishizuku.

[Aminah]

 

It's possible that if the disc ended up flat after you put it back in, that could be blocking it. Where the disc is originally placed it'll be knocked sideways by the 'nipple' in the back of the section. I usually just remove it because it has no purpose there other than to keep the ink from spilling until it's installed (though some people have had some luck putting the disc back in the right spot just so they could syringe fill multiple carts and take them with them).

 

If that still doesn't work, try giving the pen a flush/clean, especially if the ink you are syringe filling is not the same as the ink previously in the pen, the mixing of two different inks can have a variety of random impacts such as turning into sludge and clogging up the feed, or something a fair bit more drastic (like when Noodler's Baystate blue comes into contact with just about any other ink) and melting the feed/plastic/etc.

 

Uww sookie sookie then. Cause I didn't wash/flush between inks. I kinda figured since the feed and all was wet there was no need. I need a squished up smiley face here. Still at work when I get home I'll clean it out, remove the disc and see what gives.

 

Thank you! :-)

[Aminah]

Haven't tried Diamine Shimmertastic... sounds like a colloidal liquid

Acquired some JH 1670s but haven't yet gotten enough patience to try them out.

 

Don't think I'd try them in a Metro first off though; I'd prefer something wet & gushy. My Metros can be dryish when fed Pelikan 4001; they're OK on Parker Quink or basic Pilot ink, but they really sing with Irishizuku.

 

As a newbie I am still learning about this "wet/dry" stuff. Truth be told I'm still not kinda sure what is going on with that. But here's something, I have a Himalayan, when I write with it it stays wet a looong time. But, I do not know if it's the pen or the ink. Ay yi yi, so much to learn. :-)

[Aminah]

 

Haven't had any experience with Diamine's shimmery inks, but I would think with Pilot's proprietary converters/carts that there is no bottleneck as far as the ink reservoir goes compared to most other filling systems. That being said, the metropolitans always seemed like they were a tad on the wetter side for their feed channels and that most of the dryness if anyone was usually from their Fine nib (or EF if you grab one from a Pilot Penmanship) being a bit tighter at the tines.

 

Though that does make me think of something :

 

When syringe filling either a sample vial or cartridge (or just pen filling in general) with shimmery inks (though I would do it with all inks out of practice), it may be a good idea to make sure to give the ink a good shake/agitation before transfering from bottle/vial into vial/cart/pen. Without the ink properly agitated/mixed you can either end up with something way too thin, or too thick, or have settling (Especially if you draw up with a syringe from the bottom). Something like Noodler's bulletproof or lubricated inks for example can have problems like flow, or super long drying times if the ink isn't well mixed in the pen.

 

Yes, I did have sense to do that. I shook like the song "All Shook Up". Yup.

[KBeezie]

 

As a newbie I am still learning about this "wet/dry" stuff. Truth be told I'm still not kinda sure what is going on with that. But here's something, I have a Himalayan, when I write with it it stays wet a looong time. But, I do not know if it's the pen or the ink. Ay yi yi, so much to learn. :-)

 

The whole wet/dry stuff is just generally how it flows in the pen and have a few factors involved.

 

The most common one is the ink, some inks can tend to flow rather wet and some rather dry. Wet flowing inks can be nice for extra-fine nibs that put down a fainter line or if the feed doesn't seem to allow as much ink thru. But can also be nice if you have an nice thick nib and paper that won't bleed/feather easily with it for good deal of shading or sheen.

 

The nib is usually the next factor, most nibs in the factory seem to be aimed at a middle-of-the-road flow, and with some tweaking can be made dryer or wetter (the latter is easier depending on the method). Some retailers like nibs.com for example will let you specify what kind of ink flow you want the nib tuned for when you buy a new pen from them anywhere from dry to a wet juicy flow (they also ask if you use a light pressure hand up to a heavy hand since your pressure can have an impact on flow as you spread the tipping ever so slightly). I have a Platinum Century 3776 "Black Diamond" pre-owned from them that I purchased with my choice of any new nib in it, then added a custom grind service (went with cursive italic on a broad nib), in my order I specified a light-to-medium hand, but wanting medium flow.

 

So when I got the pen with the nib ground, I could see they definitely tuned it for a wetter flow (I also left a note that I like to be able to create more shading/sheen with the ink, so that may have been a factor)

 

 

 

 

The last bit on the wetness is typically the feed, most of the modern pens are going to use a plastic feed and their channels most the time on the cheaper end are going to be about the same. Some pens like the Noodler's Ahab and such that have the option of their "flex" nib (not really flex in my opinion) needs to have the ebonite (hard rubber) feed adjusted by carving the feed channel deeper for more ink flow to deliver enough ink for the artistic amount of flexing without railroading (something that isn't easy if not pointless to do to plastic feeds).

 

Ink wise, I find Montblanc Irish Green to be a rather wet flowing ink, but fortunately it also seems to be feather and bleed resistant, whereas Noodler's Blue Steel is wet too, but has more of a tendency to bleed/feather on cheaper paper. (And Noodler's Bad Green Gator was just about the worst, very wet flowing, but would always feather out heavy dots near the end on most paper).

 

When you find that Nib + Ink + Paper combination that just works perfectly it's like a dream (for me on the Metropolitans when I had them, I really liked using the cheap Pilot Blue-Black from the bottle with a medium nib on sugarcane paper, very affordable combination and looked nicer than most the standard inks).

 

 

[ENewton]

I would vote for trying a different ink to see whether the problem persists.

 

A few weeks ago, someone gave me a bottle of one of the De Atramentis pearlescent inks. Because I had never used any kind of shimmer ink before, I first tried it in a Dollar 717i pen, which is usually a nice, wet writer with a surprisingly smooth nib. (We use pens just like it, year after year, in the ink-testing stations at the San Francisco International Pen Show.)

 

The pen wrote a beautiful wet line, then a drier one, then a drier one, and then just stopped.

 

I decided to try the same ink in my Kaweco Sport, which is generally dry even when filled with an eye dropper. In that pen, the ink has been flowing generously for about three weeks now.

 

Having found a pen in which the shimmer ink runs well, and knowing that it can be a challenge to clean shimmer ink out of a pen, I am planning to limit the use of that ink to the Kaweco Sport.

 

If you switch inks--after flushing the Metropolitan as well as you can--and get better results with the new ink, you'll have your answer.

[Aminah]

Bingo E Newton!!!!

 

I just cleaned and reloaded with the Diamine shimmer...nothing. Out of frustration I threw that out, recleaned then reinked with Diamond Marine. Its flowing fine so far. 💃🏾

 

I read that the shimmer inks are best used with a stub type nib. My Metro is 1.1, so too bad. The purple shimmer ink is beautiful. Maybe Ill need a 2.5 or something to use it?? Perhaps Ill look up those above that you mentioned. If lower end Ill buy. Not going to spend a lot of funds in a fp just to use that ink. Id just as soo sell the ink.

 

Glad I found all this out before purchasing the orange shimmer ink that has been on my wish list for weeks.

 

Thanks again everyone. 😀

Edited November 28, 2018 by Lyric

[KBeezie]

Bingo E Newton!!!!

 

I just cleaned and reloaded with the Diamine shimmer...nothing. Out of frustration I threw that out, recleaned then reinked with Diamond Marine. Its flowing fine so far. 💃🏾

 

I read that the shimmer inks are best used with a stub type nib. My Metro is 1.1, so too bad. The purple shimmer ink is beautiful. Maybe Ill need a 2.5 or something to use it?? Perhaps Ill look up those above that you mentioned. If lower end Ill buy. Not going to spend a lot of funds in a fp just to use that ink. Id just as soo sell the ink.

 

Glad I found all this out before purchasing the orange shimmer ink that has been on my wish list for weeks.

 

Thanks again everyone. 😀

If you get a Pilot 78G With a "B" Nib (such as from JStationery, or from a retailer closer to you), you can pull the nib out (the nib and feed come out together though may be a bit stiff the first time) and replace the nib on the metropolotian.

 

The B and BB that are on the 78G are stubs rather than round broads. There's also the Cursive Italic nib on the Pilot Prera that will also fit in the Metro, but the 78G cost around 13 or less, and the prera cost close to 35 or more.

 

PS: Never seen a 1.1 in a Pilot Metro (only ever seen Fine and Medium offered, which are roughly 0.3mm and 0.5mm) And I've had plenty of shading/shimmer from inks like Emerald of Chivor and Stormy Grey from 0.5 and up stub or cursive italic, and occasionally from a standard western fine to medium nib. Might be more the feed on the metro.

Edited November 28, 2018 by KBeezie

[Uncial]

The Herbin shimmer inks perform an awful lot better than Diamine's and clog a lot less. I haven't had any issues with them at all, but some have mentioned here that Her in can clog from time to time. I tend to keep certain pens specifically for shimmer inks.

[Aminah]

The Herbin shimmer inks perform an awful lot better than Diamine's and clog a lot less. I haven't had any issues with them at all, but some have mentioned here that Her in can clog from time to time. I tend to keep certain pens specifically for shimmer inks.

 

Makes sense. I'm working to learn what they are. Thankfully KBeezie is sharing a heads up.