Why Is (Graf Von) Faber Castell Not More Popular In The Fp World?

[maclink]

  On 9/17/2021 at 5:30 PM, sansenri said:

but on the other hand some of their design is innovative, an example is the Intuition Platino, as far as I know there are not too many pens around that address as well the "pleasure of holding the pen with nothing else in the way to disturb your grip" as the Intuition.

This experience I like very much which is why (together with the unquestionable quality of the rest of the pen) I consider the Intuition Platino one of my nicest pens.

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I've been looking for one of these but it seems that they've stopped making them.  If so, what a pity and I do wonder why...

[sansenri]

  On 9/17/2021 at 5:51 PM, MarcoA63 said:

next time I'm in Vienna I'll definitely go!!! The 'class' of this shop is amazing a bit like going to Cartier 🙂

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The shop is so nice, and the lady at the desk is knowledgeable as you would expect and will let you try the pens by dipping them in an ink well. They have an interesting selection of pens, also some discontinued ones (I was very attracted by some celluloid Montegrappa but had already made my mind up for the Intuition). Browsing through what is on offer is a pleasurable experience in itself and it's really tough to leave without having first taken your credit card out...
The shop is also easy to find it's in the main street just past the big Cathedral, downtown. If you visit Vienna you cannot miss it.

[Jerome Tarshis]

  On 9/16/2021 at 6:21 PM, sansenri said:

+1

I own more than 10 modern Pelikans, since a number of years and have never "greased" one (please only use 100% pure silicon grease if you must) not even once!

I have greased a couple of vintage Pelikans once since I own them, but only because they were a bit stiff when bought. Never needed to do that again since.

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This. I am a child of the 1940s. Basically I feel no need to lubricate my piston fillers. Conceivably at some very long interval I've not yet arrived at. I also feel no need to "thoroughly" clean pens. For me, at least, it is not necessary to be always doing something to the pen. Mine simply write well.

[david-p]

Yes, Weidler I know. It is on the Graben, which is the Bond St., London, Fifth Av, NY, etc, area of Vienna. I have often looked in the window and seen fancy pens and inks and noticed that the shop is empty. It is not the kind of shop I ever enter, as I do not feel comfortable in such a shop. Only the extremely rich use these shops here, mostly tourists in fur coats! It is, as somebody said, the equivalent of Cartier, with top prices. If that is the image that F-C wants to project, sales are bound to be limited.

 

The shop also sells models of pen with the name Hugo Boss. I do not know who makes these pens, but Hugo Boss is an expensive (high quality) clothing company, with a store in nearby Kärntnerstrasse. Read here.

[maclink]

From my perspective, if what I like and wish for can be found in a corner shop for a tiny price, I'll go for it.  Same for a boutique shop intended for those who are concerned about status etc.   I think the GvFC pens are nice.  I'll go pick one up wherever it's sold.  You may find one at a good price in there.... you never know.  Business may well be slow, hence the deals being available as opposed to online shops where we shop without worrying about image as we walk in the boutique. 😜

 

The Hugo Boss pen line isn't a particularly expensive pen line ($100-200) by the standards of what we may trivially discuss in these forums.  

 

 

[sansenri]

  On 9/18/2021 at 6:51 AM, david-p said:

Yes, Weidler I know. It is on the Graben, which is the Bond St., London, Fifth Av, NY, etc, area of Vienna. I have often looked in the window and seen fancy pens and inks and noticed that the shop is empty. It is not the kind of shop I ever enter, as I do not feel comfortable in such a shop. Only the extremely rich use these shops here, mostly tourists in fur coats! It is, as somebody said, the equivalent of Cartier, with top prices. If that is the image that F-C wants to project, sales are bound to be limited.

 

The shop also sells models of pen with the name Hugo Boss. I do not know who makes these pens, but Hugo Boss is an expensive (high quality) clothing company, with a store in nearby Kärntnerstrasse. Read here.

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Same as Corso Vittorio Emanuele II in Milano where originally Ercolessi the fountain pen shop used to be, does not surprise me.

 

But you seem to be giving judgment on this shop without ever having stepped in...

The shop holds many other well known brands (never even noticed Hugo Boss, but again not a reason to judge, with your nose squashed on the outside of the window pane).

But I can assure you it's not a "tourist" shop, they have pens a causal buyer will never have heard of.

Either take courage and step in next time you walk past, or leave it at that...

 

take a closer look at the pen display, does that seem like a torurist shop?

 

I must also add that if you feel uncomfortable in such a shop, that applies to you, but does not have to be a general feeling.

A valid B&M shop or even a Boutique does have some advantages in the quality of service. I enjoy that sometimes, and look for it, despite I may be called to pay a premium, and sometimes it's occasion that makes a purchase, other times I seek the bargain an rely on online purchase. The experience is admittedly never exactly comparable, but it's nice to experience both.

[stardustny]

Their pens are beautiful but a more affordable piston filler would be a welcome sight on the market.

[stardustny]

  On 9/16/2021 at 12:07 AM, Waltz For Zizi said:

Well, different people have different tastes. Since I

 

What is it with people and complex filling mechanisms? I mean are you all repairing your own pens when they break? Cause I have piston and vacuum fillers but I actually preffer CC cause they are so easy to maintain. I sold my two lever fillers cause they were a pain to use, to change ink, to clean, to fill. A CC is way easier to clean, no need to grease, nothing to repair if the converter breaks. I have about 10 modern Pelikan pens and I see myself needing to grease them every time I clean them.

Is it that by having a complex filling mechanism you feel like the pen deserves a bigger price?

I like the simplicity of a CC more than the headaches a piston filler can give me.

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For people like me who do a lot of writing as part of their daily job, the added ink capacity of a piston filler outweighs some of the drawbacks of a piston filler. If they would come out with a larger capacity vacuum converter, that could change my opinion.

 

There is also a little philosophy behind the piston filler: The whole pen becomes a tool. The barrel is part of the tool, every part of the pen has a function necessary to the operation of the tool. With a CC pen this is not the case. For some people, this consideration adds to the pen's overall aesthetic appeal.

[sansenri]

"I do not know who makes these pens"

 

It was discussed here that most likely Hugo Boss pens are made by Plasteria with manufacture in Taiwan

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/347387-who-makes-hugo-boss-pens/

 

 

[sansenri]

  On 9/18/2021 at 1:52 PM, stardustny said:

 

Some of us (like myself) still do a lot of writing for work.  For people like me, the added ink capacity of a piston filler outweighs some of the drawbacks of a piston filler. If they would come out with a larger capacity vacuum converter, that could change my opinion.

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I doubt that would change your attitude, you can find piston fillers elsewhere, cheaper. If GvFC were to come out with a piston filler, it would go in their upper range, and price would likely be in the 1000 euro + range, the reason to buy would then need to be well beyond the pure advantage capacity of a piston filler... (style, prestige, materials, quality, etc.)

It's clear that qualities in a fountain pen are not necessarily confined within utilitarian scopes - for those who give value most only to that, clearly GvFC is not their pen.

 

(note I am referring specifically to Graf von Faber Castell, not the lower end Faber Castells)

 

btw I also do a lot of writing for work, and like piston fillers, where my go to pens are usually Pelikan m200s,

that does not stop me from loving more expensive GvFCs...

[david-p]

  On 9/18/2021 at 1:39 PM, sansenri said:

Same as Corso Vittorio Emanuele II in Milano where originally Ercolessi the fountain pen shop used to be, does not surprise me.

 

But you seem to be giving judgment on this shop without ever having stepped in...

The shop holds many other well known brands (never even noticed Hugo Boss, but again not a reason to judge, with your nose squashed on the outside of the window pane).

But I can assure you it's not a "tourist" shop, they have pens a causal buyer will never have heard of.

Either take courage and step in next time you walk past, or leave it at that...

 

take a closer look at the pen display, does that seem like a torurist shop?

 

I must also add that if you feel uncomfortable in such a shop, that applies to you, but does not have to be a general feeling.

A valid B&M shop or even a Boutique does have some advantages in the quality of service. I enjoy that sometimes, and look for it, despite I may be called to pay a premium, and sometimes it's occasion that makes a purchase, other times I seek the bargain an rely on online purchase. The experience is admittedly never exactly comparable, but it's nice to experience both.

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in the present time of Covid, things are not quite the same, but when I use the word tourist, I do not mean ordinary people on packaged tours, but the hyper rich jet setting tourists who live at the five star hotels. The ordinary Viennese do not shop in the Graben - it is too expensive, and most of the merchandise is beyond their means. This is not my milieu, sorry! I like to pump my own gas, and when in a shop do not feel comfortable to have a salesperson  continually hovering over me. I like to be allowed to look at the merchandise unhindered and not feel obliged to wave a credit card to be allowed to exit honourably.

[MuddyWaters]

I think it's clear from this thread that the reason gvfc pens are not spoken more of is that less people find them appealing compared to other brands at similar prices. This can include for different people different reasons, including lack of piston filler, sometimes questionable cap seal and weird (to some) esthetics and ergonomics. 

[A Smug Dill]

  On 9/18/2021 at 1:52 PM, stardustny said:

There is also a little philosophy behind the piston filler: The whole pen becomes a tool. The barrel is part of the tool, every part of the pen has a function necessary to the operation of the tool. With a CC pen this is not the case.

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With a cartridge/converter-filled pen, the function of the barrel is to serve as a handle such that the pen can be wielded comfortably and with precision by the user — with a more balanced distribution of weight and something to rest against the part of the hand between thumb and index finger, and without fear of accidentally pushing the ink reservoir out of alignment or even right off of the ‘nipple‘ inside the gripping section.

 

Have you tried writing with just the nib and feed in a fountain pen's gripping section, and the bare converter sticking out of its backside? Not the easiest thing to do, especially if you want to put down more than one line of legible writing.

 

Therefore, I'd say the barrel of a c/c-filled fountain pen is necessary to the operation by the user of the writing instrument.

[sansenri]

  On 9/18/2021 at 2:34 PM, MuddyWaters said:

I think it's clear from this thread that the reason gvfc pens are not spoken more of is that less people find them appealing compared to other brands at similar prices. This can include for different people different reasons, including lack of piston filler, sometimes questionable cap seal and weird (to some) esthetics and ergonomics. 

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You are right Muddy, as long as this is not interpreted as a negative comment. It's clear that value is the more subjective the more cost increases. We've discussed this as a general topic before. It depends what you look for in a pen. If it's just a utilitarian scope as I mentioned, then any other well performing cheaper pen will do just fine. On the other hand we all know that expensive pens exist and that some people find them of adequate value for what they get and therefore worth their money.

 

[david-p]

  On 9/18/2021 at 2:34 PM, MuddyWaters said:

I think it's clear from this thread that the reason gvfc pens are not spoken more of is that less people find them appealing compared to other brands at similar prices. This can include for different people different reasons, including lack of piston filler, sometimes questionable cap seal and weird (to some) esthetics and ergonomics. 

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Simplifying, let’s say that the appeal of a pen has two different factors: visual statement and technological features.

 

The first is often allied to fashion and social caché, and it is exemplified by Montblanc, F-C and others. The other would be the Lamy 2000, safari type. Few pens fall into both categories, the Parker 51 being an obvious example.

 

In the realm of the first category there is inevitably a pecking order, and F-C, however attractive its products may be to some, is not currently the first in line. They just have to work harder to get to the top spot.

 

David

[A Smug Dill]

  On 9/18/2021 at 2:45 PM, sansenri said:

You are right Muddy, as long as this is not interpreted as a negative comment.

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I have reread your statement thrice over, and still don't quite understand what you meant by that. Were you saying that the correctness (or validity, or accuracy) of @MuddyWaters's assertion is premised on whether it speaks negatively of GvFC pens, when the very nub of his hypothesis is that GvFC pens fail to appeal to more people, thereby fail to attract more buyers in the market who would commit their discretionary spending to purchase GvFC pens, and thereby fail to warrant more discussion or endorsement by actual users? Is my interpretation negative? And, if so, does it then somehow invalidate what he said?

[sansenri]

I've reread thrice over my statement and can't quite explain what I meant (certainly not that Muddys statement was not valid).

Don't be too harsh on me with your logic, which is much more solid than mine, ASD, I may be getting old...

 

Probably the point I was trying to come to is that there is a sort of tendency to easily state that a costly pen is worse than a cheap pen which performs just as well, while there are far too many other factors involved in the perception of value we give to things that need to be considered, and which are extremely subjective.

 

 

 

[inkstainedruth]

  On 9/18/2021 at 2:37 PM, A Smug Dill said:

Have you tried writing with just the nib and feed in a fountain pen's gripping section, and the bare converter sticking out of its backside? Not the easiest thing to do, especially if you want to put down more than one line of legible writing.

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I have.  

I picked up a Penatia (a Cross sub-brand, apparently) and have not been able as of yet to find an International Standard converter that will fit inside the barrel.  And you're right -- it was a major PITA, because the only International Standard cartridges I have are the long Pelikan cartridges (Edelstein Amethyst, swag from the first Pelikan Hub I attended, and they were too long for the barrel to fit over them).  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[MuddyWaters]

  On 9/18/2021 at 9:35 PM, sansenri said:

I've reread thrice over my statement and can't quite explain what I meant (certainly not that Muddys statement was not valid).

Don't be too harsh on me with your logic, which is much more solid than mine, ASD, I may be getting old...

 

Probably the point I was trying to come to is that there is a sort of tendency to easily state that a costly pen is worse than a cheap pen which performs just as well, while there are far too many other factors involved in the perception of value we give to things that need to be considered, and which are extremely subjective.

 

 

 

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Indeed I did not mean it negatively. I have never tried a gvfc intuition and until I do I would not assume that I would dislike it or that it would not appeal to me as a nice and pleasurable writing tool, maybe even more than other pens in its price range. 

 

I am instead making a statement to explain the lower amount of online traffic they receive at the population level, namely that not enough people are attracted by their esthetic and functional features compared to some other pens in the same price range. 

 

I do wonder how gvfc would fare in 'online traffic' or purchases if their intuition was priced like a sailor pro gear for example: similar size, gold nib, c/c filler. But alas I also suspect that the cachet that gvfc has created for itself also comes from being a costly and exclusive brand, as a self-appointed feature, which is a bit more of a shame to be (if there is anything negative I would say about them). 

 

[maclink]

  On 9/19/2021 at 2:10 AM, MuddyWaters said:

I am instead making a statement to explain the lower amount of online traffic they receive at the population level, namely that not enough people are attracted by their esthetic and functional features compared to some other pens in the same price range. 

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Although we often deny being influenced by group-think and trends, I think this may well have something to do with it.  We look at some products, including some fountain pens, and are mystified by their extreme popularity when compared with other pens.  It may not have anything to do with cost as well.

 

We can see easily see how popularity propagates, in that a FP enthusiast of repute expresses admiration for a particular pen.  Another buys it and chimes in with their kudos, then another, then another etc.  Parker was aware of this phenomenon and this certainly had a lot to do with the success of their P51, in combination with the technical merits of the pen.  Montblanc knew as well and we see how successful they have been.  Unfortunately, technical merit alone, isn't enough.

 

I think it's a combination of a technically good product that has something to bring to the consumer in combination with effective and sustained promotion.  ATM, there are trends in what current FP users like and share, heavily influenced by product promotion (maintaining relevance), technical excellence and popularity.

 

Even regarding pens with similar appearances we see differences in popularity.  Look at Leonardo vs Santini pens as an example.  Leonardo pens were well promoted, I think.  They have been reviewed by and donated to reviewers.  Nicely priced etc.  Their popularity took off.  Santini, a similarly nice brand, is nowhere near as popular among FPN members and there's an ongoing thread exploring this discrepancy.

 

The GvFC pens are different in appearance and certainly 'go against' the popular trends in design, so only heavy promotion will pull attention to them.  Otherwise, only users who don't really care about popularity will seek out and use them if they do like them or are comfortable appreciating them despite their relative obscurity.