Why Is (Graf Von) Faber Castell Not More Popular In The Fp World?

[TitoThePencilPimp]

I also share the same sentiment regarding after a certain price point, it is required to be at least a piston filler. However, I do make exceptions when quality is there. GVF are quality pens, and I am happy with the two that I own. Would I be buying any more? Probably not, unless they use a new ink storage device. I believe every one that can afford it, should have at least one GFC.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, chromantic said:

As such, there is really nothing to differentiate a $400 c/c from a $1 Jinhao (other than the materials it's made with).

 

With that, I completely disagree. The value or worth of an object cannot be determined by a ‘teardown’ into its components alone. The level of (manual) workmanship, the reputation and skill of the person (or people) who worked on producing and/or finishing it, and the degree to which it is customised to the user's specifications or needs are all differentiating factors all warrant attribution of value (which needs to be paid for) even if they're intangible.

 

1 hour ago, chromantic said:

Many people feel that when spending north of $xxx, there should be something more there to justify the cost.

That's fine, but I hope the people who feel the opposite, or just indifferent, are as keen and vocal about their sentiments just to present a more balanced view to those who are sitting on the fence and observing without having already made up their minds.

 

1 hour ago, chromantic said:

A piston mechanism, which actually costs something to manufacture (the empty space in the barrel of a c/c costs nothing), easily justifies a higher price.

 

Sorry, but the Wing Sung 3008 and PenBBS 494 — both very cheap piston-filled pen models with a ‘perfectly’ good filling mechanism — prove otherwise. It's just a rotary-driven piston with a rubber plug on its end; PenBBS will even sell you those replacement parts by the bagful as ‘consumable’ items. I don't buy for a moment that the barrel on a PenBBS 309 piston-filler cost more to manufacture than a PenBBS 308 c/c-filled sibling in the same material and the supplied rotary-driven converter.

[Paul-in-SF]

I see this thread is nearly three years old, and I have not read most of it. I cannot answer the OP's question, but I can relate, to anyone who cares to read it, why I am not interested in this brand.

 

I have only owned one GvFC pen, an Intuition Platino, and I found it pretty much impossible to write with. Unposted it was too short (119 mm) for me to write with comfortably, but posting that heavy metal cap back-weighted the pen way too much. This is or was one of their most expensive regular pen lines, and it seemed to me a very poor design. All the parts seemed well made and assembled, and aside from what I thought was the pointlessly quirky access to the converter, everything else about the pen seemed high quality and unobjectionable. But I could not get past the design weirdness and counter-effectiveness in a top-line pen. 

 

They have the reputation of making very good nibs, which is of course in their favor. But I am not inspired by the looks of their pens, which in general seem cold and uninviting, with too much (mostly shiny) metal. That is, of course, a personal view, but it is another reason I am not considering trying any of their other pens. 

[A Smug Dill]

I've had Graf von Faber-Castell fountain pens in my shopping carts many times, but each time they just end up being displaced by the competition for my budget, because:

• I don't trust their cap seal effectiveness, and that to me is a big deal. Where there were explicit mentions of that aspect in reviews, it hasn't been confidence-inspiring and there is neither credible ‘hard’ figures (e.g. three months between refills, and the ink never went completely dry or darken noticeably) nor consensus. My personal experience with the relatively cheaper Faber-Castell Ambition product line has not inspired confidence at all, either, in that regard; and neither have reviews of other (not Graf von) Faber-Castell lines such as the Ondoro and the e-Motion. (Ironically, the even cheaper Faber-Castell Essentio né Basic line seemed to perform better than the Ambition.) Do I want to be spending several hundreds of dollars on a pen that I won't be inking (and therefore using) often, because I don't trust it to readily write the next time I pick it up and uncap it? There are much prettier show ponies among pens in that price range.
• GvFC is known for excellent smooth-writing nibs, but by and large nothing speak to the precision of the lines they put down. The Faber-Castell steel EF nibs are nice but not really what I think of as Extra Fine; and how that translates to GvFC gold nibs, if at all, is unknown. I don't mind inflexible ‘nail’ nibs if they consistently put down lines with, dare I say, German clinical precision — with or without luxurious looking pen bodies on which to fit them — but I haven't been convinced by Pelikan, Lamy, JoWo or Bock that they know how to supply a nib that is a precise writing instrument out-of-the-box; and I'm not about to take a costly gamble to find out.

At those price points, Japanese (e.g. Platinum Izumo with Tamenuri urushi-on-ebonite or Tagayasan ironwood bodies) and Italian fountain pens (e.g. Aurora, Santini Italia) edge out Graf von Faber-Castell offerings at every turn; and given how good the competition is, there is no reason for non-devotees to encourage others to spend money on GvFC and give it a ‘fair’ chance for the limelight instead of letting Japanese and Italian pens, or even higher-end Pelikan pens, dominate the market segment.

[ele]

12 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

I have about 10 modern Pelikan pens and I see myself needing to grease them every time I clean them.

That is unnecessary and probably counterproductive. A well made piston seal/mechanism shouldn't need to be greased more than annually. 

[chromantic]

^^ Smug Dill - Wow, really? Misconstrue much?

point 1  - A c/c has a barrel, a cap and a section that contains a feed and a nib, a $1 Jinhao and a $800 Duofold Pearl and Black both have those same 3 parts. But you're right,  I should have included "workmanship" along with "materials" in the qualifier.

point 2 - I didn't say "ALL people SHOULD feel", I said "many people (do) feel". I certainly wasn't trying to preclude people from having opposite opinions, or from voicing them if they do. I will remind you I opened my post by saying "Valid points."

point 3 - Again, I said "people spending north of $xxx". I mean, unless you took that to be $1.00.

[Waltz For Zizi]

3 hours ago, ele said:

That is unnecessary and probably counterproductive. A well made piston seal/mechanism shouldn't need to be greased more than annually. 

I guess this means Pelikan does not make quality piston mechanisms. 

p.s I don't mean that I dissasembly the piston mechanism to grease them, but I definately need to put a very small amount of grease inside the barrel after unscrewing the nib, cause it will simply not be as smooth as a new bought pen is.

Again, Im talking about pens that I use, clean, and put away for a month or two, and befor filling it I need to grease it a little, but I usually do it after cleaning it, to be ready when I take it out again.

If id use the pen all year long without putting it to rest It would not need this often greasing cause the inks I use are pretty lubrified.

[A Smug Dill]

58 minutes ago, chromantic said:

point 2 - I didn't say "ALL people SHOULD feel", I said "many people (do) feel". I certainly wasn't trying to preclude people from having opposite opinions, or from voicing them if they do. I will remind you I opened my post by saying "Valid points."

 

I don't recall accusing you of oppressing or suppressing expression of dissent. I was expressing my hope of hearing more in discussion forums from those users who just don't see piston-fillers, flex nibs, shading inks, etc. as inherently superior — nor inferior, but just nothing special or remarkable worth writing home about — to present a more balanced view instead of one-sided narratives.

 

1 hour ago, chromantic said:

point 3 - Again, I said "people spending north of $xxx". I mean, unless you took that to be $1.00.

 

How much people spend has nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing a piston versus that of manufacturing a converter. Rotary-driven converters usually consist of a clear tube, a piston with a rubber plug on one end, a handle for driving the piston, a cap between or joining the tube and the handle, and often a metal collar to hold the handle, cap and tube together; using a converter (supplied in the pen's retail package) as a filling mechanism does not mean it costs nothing to put a filling mechanism inside the pen's barrel. I'm not at all convinced that the piston and rotary driver in a Pelikan M400 costs materially more to manufacture than a converter in its entirety to justify piston-filling as a pen feature that warrants a premium on price; the piston is still just a stick of plastic with a rubber plug one one end, and exactly how complex you think that piece that drives the piston is, under the shell of the piston knob that is just equivalent to a barrel finial on c/c-filled pens?

[TitoThePencilPimp]

2 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

I guess this means Pelikan does not make quality piston mechanisms. 

p.s I don't mean that I dissasembly the piston mechanism to grease them, but I definately need to put a very small amount of grease inside the barrel after unscrewing the nib, cause it will simply not be as smooth as a new bought pen is.

Again, Im talking about pens that I use, clean, and put away for a month or two, and befor filling it I need to grease it a little, but I usually do it after cleaning it, to be ready when I take it out again.

If id use the pen all year long without putting it to rest It would not need this often greasing cause the inks I use are pretty lubrified.

Do you often change inks, let ink sit inside of the pen, or pen flush constantly? I noticed that I have to grease a Pelikan I use for different inks more frequently. My other Pelikans are assigned only one ink. Maybe once a year I need to grease the piston. Mostly every two years.

[sansenri]

13 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

I see this thread is nearly three years old, and I have not read most of it. I cannot answer the OP's question, but I can relate, to anyone who cares to read it, why I am not interested in this brand.

 

I have only owned one GvFC pen, an Intuition Platino, and I found it pretty much impossible to write with. Unposted it was too short (119 mm) for me to write with comfortably, but posting that heavy metal cap back-weighted the pen way too much. This is or was one of their most expensive regular pen lines, and it seemed to me a very poor design. All the parts seemed well made and assembled, and aside from what I thought was the pointlessly quirky access to the converter, everything else about the pen seemed high quality and unobjectionable. But I could not get past the design weirdness and counter-effectiveness in a top-line pen. 

 

They have the reputation of making very good nibs, which is of course in their favor. But I am not inspired by the looks of their pens, which in general seem cold and uninviting, with too much (mostly shiny) metal. That is, of course, a personal view, but it is another reason I am not considering trying any of their other pens. 

 

Your impression of the Intuition Platino is certainly respectable, regarding the weirdness of the design, however is totally subjective, as you rightly mention.

Viceversa, I just love my Intuition Platino Ebony, find the design to be fantastic, do not find it too short at all (I never post almost any pen), just love how it feels in the hand, how it writes, and consider it one of my best pens.

The fact it is not a piston filler does not bother me at all, I do prefer piston fillers, but have many and can easily accept to own a very nice pen that isn't.

Variety is the spice of life.

[sansenri]

5 hours ago, ele said:

That is unnecessary and probably counterproductive. A well made piston seal/mechanism shouldn't need to be greased more than annually. 

+1

I own more than 10 modern Pelikans, since a number of years and have never "greased" one (please only use 100% pure silicon grease if you must) not even once!

I have greased a couple of vintage Pelikans once since I own them, but only because they were a bit stiff when bought. Never needed to do that again since.

[sansenri]

2 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

I guess this means Pelikan does not make quality piston mechanisms. 

p.s I don't mean that I dissasembly the piston mechanism to grease them, but I definately need to put a very small amount of grease inside the barrel after unscrewing the nib, cause it will simply not be as smooth as a new bought pen is.

Again, Im talking about pens that I use, clean, and put away for a month or two, and befor filling it I need to grease it a little, but I usually do it after cleaning it, to be ready when I take it out again.

If id use the pen all year long without putting it to rest It would not need this often greasing cause the inks I use are pretty lubrified.

 

I'm just guessing, but very lubrified inks usually contain a higher quantity of surfactant, which is essentially soap (wetting agent, reduces surface tension), and that is likely to wash away the silicon grease faster than less lubricated ink... which might be the reason why your pistons tend to cling to the piston wall after a while, especially after a period of rest.

[david-p]

I have the impression that the fountain pen making business of F-C is a very small part of its total output.

 

David

[sansenri]

would you say that is a reason why GvFC is not so popular in fountain pens?

 

(btw my last GvFC  was bought in Vienna!)

[Sybarite]

Just my 2 cent's worth:

I'm just a “newbie” here with a modest collection of fountain pens (24), but I use all of them in rotation. I don’t believe in putting them away “for best”. I have a Pen Of The Week and few things give me as much pleasure as inking one of my toys up and having it on my desk for a week. Usually, in a classical mood, I tend towards a Mont Blanc, my Waterman 100 or one of my Souverans. But when in a more avant-garde mood, I use my G.v.Fabre Castell. It’s a departure from the more traditional designs and it just exudes quality. I find myself just picking it up and writing something just for the pleasure of using it. To me, this pleasure is added to by the perceived rarity and uniqueness of it. (Picture attached)

[como]

On 9/16/2021 at 1:30 AM, Waltz For Zizi said:

What aspect feels robotic and cold to you?? I mean have you seen the cap design, dand the design of the imprint on the nib? That is certainly not robotic like, if anything is artistic/artisan feeling. I do not know of any other pen similar in shape. Pens like Lamy sfari or twisbi feel "robotic" way more than GvFC pens will ever do.

I feel obliged to reply your post, since you quoted me three times 😜! You see, love has its own free will. I just don't love it. No convincing and no rationalisation can make me love it. The only GvFC I liked was the Classic model in Wood Macassar. I went to try it, beautiful pen but the shining slippery and skinny section made it uncomfortable for me to write for long. I am happy for you that you find the design irresistible. That's the feeling we can all relate to no matter what our preferences and differences in pens are.

[david-p]

20 hours ago, sansenri said:

would you say that is a reason why GvFC is not so popular in fountain pens?

 

(btw my last GvFC  was bought in Vienna!)

Which shop in VIenna?

 

I think that most people think of F-C in connection with pencils; but not pens. I suspect that the pens are a means of diversifying for F-C, but that the market is much more competitive than that for pencils. Another, different, reason is that other manufacturers have established stronger design profiles, eg. Lamy 2000, safari, Waterman Carène, Parker 51, Pilot Vanishing Point, etc. F-C has some interesting looking pens, though they dont attract me; but, as far as I can see, none that is outstandingly innovative.

[sansenri]

51 minutes ago, david-p said:

Which shop in VIenna?

 

I think that most people think of F-C in connection with pencils; but not pens. I suspect that the pens are a means of diversifying for F-C, but that the market is much more competitive than that for pencils. Another, different, reason is that other manufacturers have established stronger design profiles, eg. Lamy 2000, safari, Waterman Carène, Parker 51, Pilot Vanishing Point, etc. F-C has some interesting looking pens, though they dont attract me; but, as far as I can see, none that is outstandingly innovative.

 

I do not agree with you there, their design is very recognizable in my opinion, with that sort of aristocratic look, with crown at the top of their caps (I'm particularly talking of GvFC, not so much FC), in fact despite I assume no-one at GvFC has ever claimed this, I tend to define their look as "Imperial"... (I find it's much more Imperial than Sheaffers... ).
You can then like it or dislike it, but I would not say it's ordinary.

 

Also I do not agree with you on the lack of innovation, obviously as a brand with German heritage one of their strong points will be tradition, but on the other hand some of their design is innovative, an example is the Intuition Platino, as far as I know there are not too many pens around that address as well the "pleasure of holding the pen with nothing else in the way to disturb your grip" as the Intuition.

This experience I like very much which is why (together with the unquestionable quality of the rest of the pen) I consider the Intuition Platino one of my nicest pens.

 

 

 

[sansenri]

btw the shop in Vienna is Weidler

[MarcoA63]

next time I'm in Vienna I'll definitely go!!! The 'class' of this shop is amazing a bit like going to Cartier 🙂