Carene Fp & Rb Interchangeability Of Parts

[Left FPN]

This subject raises its head from time to time.

 

Today I dedicated time to measuring and documenting by photographs and a drawing the results when attempting to fit a fountain pen (FP) section into a Roller Ball (RB) barrel and visa versa.

 

A Black Sea FP and a Lagoon Blue RB were chosen so that differentiating one from tother is easy. A second FP section was used to hold the Waterman Standard Long cartridge.

 

Before I proceed I will start with the simple stuff that needs no drawing or measurements.

 

All parts are Waterman standard unmolested, untouched and as factory assembled. I cannot comment on the fitting of third party ink tanks into the Carene.

 

An FP cap WILL fit an RB section.

 

An RB cap WILL NOT fit an FP section.

 

While the caps look identical they are not. Each is fitted with a polyethylene seal at its farthest end. The FP seal IS different to the RB seal.

 

Now for the rest.

 

 

 

 

Here we have the RB cap fitted, as far as it will go, onto the FP section. The cap falls short of the section latch by about 2.5mm. In short, the FP's nib hits the RB's polyethylene seal.

 

 

Here we have the FP cap fitted to the RB section. From the above I estimate the FP caps polyethylene insert to be approx 2.5mm from the tip of the RB ball.

 

 

Here we have the RB section fitted into the FP barrel. While the parts appear to mate, refer to the cross section drawing, Section C-C

 

 

Here we have the FP section, with converter, fitted into the RB barrel. This is as far as it will go, refer to the cross section drawing, Section E-E

 

 

Here we have the FP section with cartridge, fitted into the RB barrel. This is as far as it will go, refer to the cross section drawing, Section D-D

 

 

Down in the deep dark of the barrels. FP left, RB right

 

 

Cross section drawing.

 

 

Conclusion: While it would be advantageous to buy a Roller Ball pen plus a fountain pen section, using a Waterman converter and standard long cartridges the parts will not fit together. Though I do not have any at the moment, using an FP section with Waterman short cartridges may well work but I am unsure of the gap beyond the cartridge inside the RB barrel. Perhaps more on this later. Or if someone who owns a short can message me its dimensions. Thanks

 

If you guys see anything untoward or want further details then message me or reply to this topic.

[Chrissy]

Thank you very much for your efforts in clearing up this question.

[thx1138]

Thank you. This is a wonderful information post.

[alexwi]

Here we have the FP section, with converter, fitted into the RB barrel. This is as far as it will go, refer to the cross section drawing, Section E-E

 

I know I can buy pens without my wife noticing (or, more likely, actually, while she plays dumb to humor my fetish). Now that I saw your excellent drawings, I'm itching for a bench drill, but there's no way I can get away with that.

 

alex

[thx1138]

Explain bench drill is essential for home renovations.

[alexwi]

Yeah, I could do that, and it's not a bad idea, but then, six months down the road, I'll be looking for answers to questions like "Why isn't x, y, or z fixed? Isn't that what the drill was for?"

[alexwi]

I'm very intrigued by how the finial, barrel, and insert are held together. It looks like some proprietary kind of screw in there.

 

I would've thought of a rivet (like some Parker 180 caps), but its shape is too regular to be one.

 

It wouldn't have been terribly complicated for Waterman to do something less permanent, but obviously there's a monetary incentive not to, which is perfectly fine. Annoying like hell, but perfectly fine.

 

I guess I'll have a really good look next week, when my Carene arrives.

 

If the insert can turn inside the barrel, the drill bench would be useless. What I really "need" is a macro lens for my camera, and possibly an endoscope (waaaay easier to hide than a drill bench).

 

alex

[Left FPN]

I would not advise drilling brass unless you know the correct procedure/technique.

 

It can, if using drills incorrectly sharpened for drilling brass, snatch and become very dangerous.

[Left FPN]

I'm very intrigued by how the finial, barrel, and insert are held together. It looks like some proprietary kind of screw in there.

 

I would've thought of a rivet (like some Parker 180 caps), but its shape is too regular to be one.

 

It wouldn't have been terribly complicated for Waterman to do something less permanent, but obviously there's a monetary incentive not to, which is perfectly fine. Annoying like hell, but perfectly fine.

 

I guess I'll have a really good look next week, when my Carene arrives.

 

If the insert can turn inside the barrel, the drill bench would be useless. What I really "need" is a macro lens for my camera, and possibly an endoscope (waaaay easier to hide than a drill bench).

 

alex

The tassie is held on with a cross head screw. It should also be noted that the cross head driver required to release the screw in a RB barrel must have a smaller diameter end than that of one used for screw in the FP barrel.

 

The barrel contains a plastic sleeve which you can see from the open end. Out of 100 pens, I have only ever found one of these to have moved by about 1mm. With a little force I pushed it back in.

 

As for the brass 'insert' it may be a part of the barrel.

[RMN]

I suppose if you use a FP barrel with a RB section, you would have to fill the barrel to support the RB refill?

 

 

D.ick

[alexwi]

After looking closely at the details, using a fountain pen barrel, fountain pen cap, and rollerball section would only require replacing the nylon insert in the cap for the one that fits a rollerball section, and dropping a spacer in the barrel in order to keep the rollerball refill securely in place. So, the "downgrade," from fountain pen to rollerball is feasible without any major surgery.

 

I'm going to be on the hunt for a cheap Carene rollerball and see how hard it is to dismantle its barrel, which would sate my curiosity.

 

alex

[Left FPN]

While it's all doable I'll just settle for 2 Carene bodies to fondle on my desk.

[elysee]

The interchangeability of parts is one of the things that I love so much about Elysee pens! My Elysee fountain pens can become rollerball pens by replacing the nib section with a rollerball section and my Elysee ballpoint pens can become mechanical pencils by replacing the ballpoint refill and pen spring (which fits onto the refill) with an Elysee pencil insert. Although I purchased my Elysee pens in sets so that I have at least a ballpoint pen, pencil, rollerball pen, and fountain pen, I have serveral sets for which I can have multiple ballpoint pens (I prefer one pencil per set only) and my choice of multiple rollerball pens or multiple fountain pens. Since I like variety in my sets, I have multiple nib sections of various sizes as well as multiple rollerball sections.

 

It is too bad that other pen makers did not and do not design their pens with this interchangeability of parts, especially in regard to pencils.

Edited July 11, 2018 by elysee

[pajaro]

Proof positive that people like to fool around with things.

[bemon]

This subject raises its head from time to time.

 

Today I dedicated time to measuring and documenting by photographs and a drawing the results when attempting to fit a fountain pen (FP) section into a Roller Ball (RB) barrel and visa versa.

 

A Black Sea FP and a Lagoon Blue RB were chosen so that differentiating one from tother is easy. A second FP section was used to hold the Waterman Standard Long cartridge.

 

Before I proceed I will start with the simple stuff that needs no drawing or measurements.

 

All parts are Waterman standard unmolested, untouched and as factory assembled. I cannot comment on the fitting of third party ink tanks into the Carene.

 

An FP cap WILL fit an RB section.

 

An RB cap WILL NOT fit an FP section.

 

While the caps look identical they are not. Each is fitted with a polyethylene seal at its farthest end. The FP seal IS different to the RB seal.

 

Now for the rest.

 

DSCN3143b.jpg

 

DSCN3150.JPG

 

DSCN3151.JPG

 

Here we have the RB cap fitted, as far as it will go, onto the FP section. The cap falls short of the section latch by about 2.5mm. In short, the FP's nib hits the RB's polyethylene seal.

 

DSCN3154.JPG DSCN3155.JPG

 

Here we have the FP cap fitted to the RB section. From the above I estimate the FP caps polyethylene insert to be approx 2.5mm from the tip of the RB ball.

 

DSCN3156b.jpg DSCN3157.JPG

 

Here we have the RB section fitted into the FP barrel. While the parts appear to mate, refer to the cross section drawing, Section C-C

 

DSCN3159b.jpg

 

Here we have the FP section, with converter, fitted into the RB barrel. This is as far as it will go, refer to the cross section drawing, Section E-E

 

DSCN3160b.jpg

 

Here we have the FP section with cartridge, fitted into the RB barrel. This is as far as it will go, refer to the cross section drawing, Section D-D

 

DSCN3167b.jpg

 

Down in the deep dark of the barrels. FP left, RB right

 

DSCN3166b.jpg

 

Cross section drawing.

 

CareneFP_RB_Interchange of Parts.jpg

 

Conclusion: While it would be advantageous to buy a Roller Ball pen plus a fountain pen section, using a Waterman converter and standard long cartridges the parts will not fit together. Though I do not have any at the moment, using an FP section with Waterman short cartridges may well work but I am unsure of the gap beyond the cartridge inside the RB barrel. Perhaps more on this later. Or if someone who owns a short can message me its dimensions. Thanks

 

If you guys see anything untoward or want further details then message me or reply to this topic.

Great post! You can actually pull the brass collar out of the roller barrel with a few simple tools. A small Philips screwdriver to loosen the screw at the bottom of the barrel and a masonry bit to hook into the collar and pull it out.

 

Then the roller barrel will easily accommodate a Waterman converter.

 

The barrel will also still accept a rollerball section and refill but without the collar to anchor the refill it rattles a little.

[pajaro]

One of the things I love about Waterman is that the rollerball refills can be replaced perfectly with a ballpoint refill, which lasts a lot longer.

 

The section of my rollerball, now a ballpoint, interchanges perfectly with a fountain pen's section. I would infer from that that the rollerball was once a fountain pen that someone plundered the section from and replaced the fountain pen section with the rollerball. All the sections being black, there's no color mismatch issue between pens. Another good thing Waterman did.