Gel-Ink Look But With Fountain Pen Ink?

[amberleadavis]

Samples are you friend - try different inks and see what you like.

[minddance]

Solid line, saturated and without shadings (i.e. no nuances and variations in ink tones - Yes, exactly! I appreciate shading, I just don't want it at this moment. I don't necessarily need dark inks as I like lighter inks too, I just want them to be rich,uniform, and saturated in color. I don't want half the word or letter to be light and the others to be normal.

 

I hear you about the paper and I see what you mean after playing around on the cheaper stuff yesterday. I do love my Clairfontaine and Rhodia though - its going to be hard to break away from that but I have been looking at a Franklin-Christoph Journal that looks pretty sweet and its paper is more absorbent.

 

May I ask what you mean about "Pilot gold nibs (too shadey)" - is that what someone else refereed to later is the thread as well? My Pilot Custom Heritage 91 came with the tines together without any daylight. It wouldn't write at all unless I used pressure (which I don't like) and shaded like crazy. I finally opened the tines on it - what a pain. That being said, my medium nib Prera and Loom seem to be pretty wet, albeit the Loom is a thicker line.

Hi Coolbreeze

 

Re Pilot gold nibs being too shadey: most of my Pilot gold nibs arrived with tines being too tightly squeezed together too. This can result in shading. I write lightly but no matter how light I write, there is bound to be pressure changes, especially at points of inflection, down strokes etc. There is no way I could keep the pressure absolutely constant. Even if one is heavy-handed (to make this pen write), there is no guarantee that the pressure is constantly heavy throughout. The gold nibs are springy and slightly soft, with a bit of pressure, the tines open very slightly and allows more ink onto paper.

 

 

The lines are generally very light, yes, so light that I couldn't write. This results in a huge range of tones that appear on paper due to pressure changes. It also results in on-off-on-off supply of ink onto paper, and many call this shading. So, sometimes you get ink on paper, sometimes you don't. The light parts of ink can also be a result of the nib trailing and distributing the pool of ink applied when there was pressure previously. That said, it depends on how one writes.

 

The look and writing experience can be compared to driving a car: step on the accelerator to move, car is driven and moves; release accelerator car moves but not engaged; then step on accelerator again.... it can cause car-sickness.

 

This results in light-dark-light-dark tones in the ink on paper. I personally find it messy and difficult to read and write.

 

With some Pilot gold nibs, this effect is magnified due to the tines being too tightly squeezed together. The problem is not the feed, the feed is very capable and supports a BB nib with no problem at all - it is the nib.

 

It is difficult, almost fingernail-breaking-and-chipping just trying to spread those tines open because the Pilot gold nibs are springy and quite resilient. When I thought I spreaded them, they spring back into their original form. They do not go out of shape easily.

 

And when those tines are finally open, another problem is presented, the inner tines are not very well finished and are now exposed to the paper at a new and different angle. This can cause scratchiness.

 

I wonder if people at Pilot test the pens at all - inked, filled, not just dipped in ink. Probably with small Asian characters they could work but for any writing fast and slightly larger, the dryness can be punishingly restrictive.

 

When ink makers enthusiastically formulate inks that behave well on paper and not too wet and penetrative; Paper makers over-zealously produce papers that are smooth and not too absorbent; pen makers worried about producing pens that write too wet, one won't be able to write!

Edited July 3, 2018 by minddance

[CoolBreeze]

Hi Coolbreeze

 

Re Pilot gold nibs being too shadey: most of my Pilot gold nibs arrived with tines being too tightly squeezed together too. This can result in shading. I write lightly but no matter how light I write, there is bound to be pressure changes, especially at points of inflection, down strokes etc. There is no way I could keep the pressure absolutely constant. Even if one is heavy-handed (to make this pen write), there is no guarantee that the pressure is constantly heavy throughout. The gold nibs are springy and slightly soft, with a bit of pressure, the tines open very slightly and puts more ink onto paper.

 

 

The lines are generally very light, yes, so light that I couldn't write. This results in a huge range of tones that appear on paper due to pressure changes. It also results in on-off-on-off supply of ink onto paper, and many call this shading. So, sometimes you get ink on paper, sometimes you don't. The light parts of ink can also be a result of the nib trailing and distributing the pool of ink applied when there was pressure previously. That said, it depends on how one writes.

 

The look and writing experience can be compared to driving a car: step on the accelerator to move, car is driven and moves; release accelerator car moves but not engaged; then step on accelerator again.... it can cause car-sickness.

 

This results in light-dark-light-dark tones in the ink on paper. I personally find it messy and difficult to read and write.

 

With some Pilot gold nibs, this effect is magnified due to the tines being too tightly squeezed together. The problem is not the feed, the feed is very capable and supports a BB nib with no problem at all - it is the nib.

 

It is difficult, almost fingernail-breaking-and-chipping just trying to spread those tines open because the Pilot gold nibs are springy and quite resilient. When I thought I spreaded them, they spring back into their original form. They do not go out of shape easily.

 

And when those tines are finally open, another problem is presented, the inner tines are not very well finished and are now exposed to the paper at a new and different angle. This can cause scratchiness.

 

I wonder if people at Pilot test the pens at all - inked, filled, not just dipped in ink. Probably with small Asian characters they could work but for any writing fast and slightly larger, the dryness can be punishingly restrictive.

This was exactly my experience with my 91 but once I got the tines straight, it wasn't scratchy. That being said, they started out so tight together and sprung back multiple times after I got them spread. They finally have stayed put and I like it more but originally with any light stroke, I literally got no ink on the page. I am happy with it now but I am still getting a lot of shading with Pilot Blue ink. Just curious, are there are gold nibs/pens you prefer? Do you stick to steel? I do like the "cushion" I get from the 91 (compared to my steel nib Loom) but I am wondering if gold nibs are for me if they can cause this much shading. Admittedly, it could be the ink. Just trying to understand what your solution was and where you ended up? Edited July 3, 2018 by CoolBreeze

[minddance]

This was exactly my experience with my 91 but once I got the tines straight, it wasn't scratchy. That being said, they started out so tight together and sprung back multiple times after I got them spread. They finally have stayed put and I like it more but originally with any light stroke, I literally got no ink on the page. I am happy with it now but I am still getting a lot of shading with Pilot Blue ink. Just curious, are there are gold nibs/pens you prefer? Do you stick to steel? I do like the "cushion" I get from the 91 (compared to my steel nib Loom) but I am wondering if gold nibs are for me if they can cause this much shading. Admittedly, it could be the ink. Just trying to understand what your solution was and where you ended up?

Hi! Would you be interested in my solution on Pilot Blue specifically or Pilot nibs or generally how I got a solid saturated line?

[CoolBreeze]

Hi! Would you be interested in my solution on Pilot Blue specifically or Pilot nibs or generally how I got a solid saturated line?

I'm sorry.... But I hate to say this but all of the above if possible. I'm assuming the ink is the ink and there is not much you can do.

[minddance]

You are right that inks are inks and there's not much one can do. There are, however, a few things to play with:

 

1. Evaporation, as Olya mentioned (to concentrate ink by evaporate water content)

 

2. Allow inks to settle in pens for 2-3days before writing (actually evaporation and also to allow the ink to form an affinity with the feed? And bubbles, if any, to settle.)

 

3. Dilution (add water) but the result is not what you are after. It can reduce feathering and bleedthrough but appear paler, write dryer.

 

4. Add surfactants like Kodak Photoflo. This lowers the surface tension and allows inks to flow quicker and penetrate papers. (This could make inks look darker and more saturated)

 

 

Inks: I usually pair darker and more saturated inks with fine nibs. Diamine Sherwood Green, Green Black, Bilberry, Oxblood, Chocolate Brown, (Sargasso Sea, old formula can be problematic, not sure about the new versions); Rohrer & Klingner Document Brown; Herbin Perle Noir, Poussiere de Lune, (Eclat de Saphir); Levenger Amethyst; Sailor Jentle Chu shu, Shigure, (Souten, Rikyu Cha).

 

Pilot Blue: This ink is not saturated, to begin with. I tried adding Kodak Photoflo to it but the ink 'breaks' at the tiniest amout of Kodak. Japanese inks, Iroshizuku, Sailor Jentle, Pilot, are formulated differently from Diamine and do not take Kodak Photoflo well.

 

Therefore, I use this ink in a Faber Castell Loom Broad (adjusted very wet), Pilot 74 BB, Pilot Pluminix B (Italic). The only luck I have in a fine nib is Lamy2000F. This ink still wants to shade but is subdued further by absorbent papers.

 

Pilot Gold nibs: All my Pilot gold nibs are shadey. 74ms (super shadey!!), bb, sfm, sm. I can only pair them with absorbent papers and non-shading inks if I want to achieve a line without shadings. Sailor Jentle Shigure work very well in my 74sfm and BB.

 

Papers: Rhodia and Clairefontaine do not help me achieve a solid saturated line unless my pen is dip-pen wet. And even then, it has to be freshly, regularly dipped in ink.

 

I turn to cheaper papers like Kokuyo Gambol (thin and absorbent) for my Pilot gold nibs and Sailor gold nibs if I want a solid line without nuances.

 

Feed-priming: It would be alot more convenient with a piston-filler like Pelikan M series and Lamy2000 and TWSBI. Otherwise, on cartridge convertor pens, you would have to dismantle the barrel, have access to the convertor everytime you want to do this. You would have to turn the piston knob to saturate the feed and (nib?) So that alot of ink is laid onto paper. The pen writes saturated but this effect is like magic dust, it disappears after a few lines and you would have to turn the knob again.

 

In my limited experience, tonally-varied lines are easier to achieve than solid saturated lines. Maybe I haven't been looking at the right places.

 

Hand: I write too lightly. My friends could produce more solid lines than me using the same pen-ink-paper combination. My observation: they write slower and more deliberately than me, and with more pressure. Writing angles and pen rotation can play a part in shading and non-shading too.

 

Shading is an 'inconsistent' look. It involves elements of inconsistency. To achieve a solid saturated line, the nib has to be 'consistently wet' (or at least with a saturation to keep up with writing speed and nib wetness). Or the ink has to be soild and saturated so that there is nothing to 'split'.

 

There is another look - consistently dry. Also without much shadings but not saturated and solid. This is good for displaying the paler shades (if present) of inks consistently and would involve another set of pens

 

P.s. My adjusted-very-wet Pelikan m800medium + Diamine Oxblood/Chocolate Brown = no shadings. Very solid (and sheeny) after the ink has aged in pen for 2-3days

 

That said, I believe these would still not have a 'gel pen look' because I believe gel pen inks are formulated different than fountain pen inks. But solid and saturated look can be achieved.

 

Steel or gold do not determine the wetness of a pen and do not determine the writing experience. The feed, nib tipping profile and distance between tines are more important, to me.

Edited July 4, 2018 by minddance

[inkstainedruth]

Hi there, Cool Breeze!

I'm surprised that in all the discussion about saturated and sheening inks, no one has thought to point you to the relevant thread. Go up to the upper right hand corner of the page to the search function box and type in something like "Inks that Sheen" (don't remember the precise title of the thread) and make sure that the search is switched to "Forums", which you can get to by clicking on the grey box (on my page it currently says "This Topic") to get to the drop down menu. Then click on the green box with the magnifier glass icon. You'll get some number of related threads (you may have to scroll through a number of pages to get to the correct topic).

Unfortunately, some of the early posts may have fallen afoul of the Photobucket debacle, so the images may no longer be available.

I actually do know where you're coming from. A couple of years ago I got a thank you card from someone and it was clearly written with a gel pen: a dark purple color that sheened red. That started me down the rabbit hole of trying to find a fountain pen ink that matched that color (sadly all the sheen-y ones had gold sheen, not red). And then do what Amberlea suggested -- lots and lots of samples. And remember that you're more likely to get sheen on slicker paper (and the best sheen I've seen is on Tomoe River); but I have had some inks sheen even on the really absorbent paper in the cheapie Piccadilly sketchbooks I use to review inks.

Good luck with your search, and let us know how you fare. And BTW --

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[minddance]

Hi CoolBreeze,

 

As you explore through the forums, it might be good to note that:

 

1. Pilot Blue can sheen too yet can also appear pale. When it sheens, (dip-pen wetness) it won't be pale. But not many pens can produce that level of consistent wetness.

 

2. Ability to Sheen is no guarantee of a solid saturated line without shading/nuances. Many inks take a very wet dip-pen/adjusted-wet pen to sheen. In fact, with that kind of wetness and on Tomoe River paper, many inks would sheen. There are, of course, exceptions. That kind of wetness is not what you would find in many pens out of the box, unadjusted, especially Pilot.

 

3. Tomoe river behaves very differently from Rhodia and many other papers. And might make you smile.

Edited July 5, 2018 by minddance

[minddance]

To illustrate my point that ability to sheen does not guarantee a solid saturated line that has no nuances/variations, I have attached a picture sample from another member.

 

Is this what you are after?

Edited July 5, 2018 by minddance

[minddance]

To illustrate my point that ability to sheen does not guarantee a solid saturated line that has no nuances/variations, I have attached a picture sample from another member.

 

Is this what you are after?

[CoolBreeze]

To illustrate my point that ability to sheen does not guarantee a solid saturated line that has no nuances/variations, I have attached a picture sample from another member.

 

Is this what you are after?

 

Maybe sheen is really not necessarily what I am after if it can be that inconsistent. I guess I am looking for no nuances or variation. Consistency! I took a picture on Clairfontaine of my Pentel Energel vs. Pilot Blue. My phone is older and everything looks washed out but I hope this gets my point across. I will see if I can get a better picture later this evening. I don't have my Pilot 91 inked up at the moment but the shading is even worse with that. I am really going to have to take a better picture I think.

Edited July 5, 2018 by CoolBreeze

[CoolBreeze]

Steel or gold do not determine the wetness of a pen and do not determine the writing experience. The feed, nib tipping profile and distance between tines are more important, to me.

 

Are there any specific pens that give you that saturated line better than the Pilot gold nib pens. I know you mentioned the Pelikan. Any others?

[Olya]

 

Maybe sheen is really not necessarily what I am after if it can be that inconsistent. I guess I am looking for no nuances or variation. Consistency! I took a picture on Clairfontaine of my Pentel Energel vs. Pilot Blue. My phone is older and everything looks washed out but I hope this gets my point across. I will see if I can get a better picture later this evening. I don't have my Pilot 91 inked up at the moment but the shading is even worse with that. I am really going to have to take a better picture I think.

Basically, what you're disliking is shading and non-saturated inks.

I stand by my earlier recommendation(s).

 

The "problem" with your Pilot nib is that the nib is soft (Pilot n°5 nibs tend to be on the softer side, even when not buying specifically the soft nib!) and Pilot (gold) nibs can run dry on the upstroke, both nib characteristics aid shading (my Pilot CH 91 M is the pen that gives the best shading - it is very soft and quite dry on the upstroke).

 

I think that liquid inks will always shade, even just a hint, even gels can do that (bad gel pens only though! Good gels are consistent; blobs of ink upon lifting the pen from the paper, so the ink that was about to go on the paper but can't spread anymore (because the writing motion has been stopped) pools where the nib/ tip is lifted).

 

For greater consistency (less shading) look into the inks that have been recommended so far (reviews are a good place and I too suggest samples before buying whole bottles, though Diamine is cheap, a "miss" won't be too catastrophic) and maybe a nib tweak might help, but I'm mostly useless at that and that takes some better knowledge/ experience, and if the ink recommendations fail, then maybe switch to a harder nib (eg Sailor or also Pilot steel nibs eg the Prera).

Edited July 5, 2018 by Olya

[CoolBreeze]

Basically, what you're disliking is shading and non-saturated inks.

I stand by my earlier recommendation(s).

 

The "problem" with your Pilot nib is that the nib is soft (Pilot n°5 nibs tend to be on the softer side, even when not buying specifically the soft nib!) and Pilot (gold) nibs can run dry on the upstroke, both nib characteristics aid shading (my Pilot CH 91 M is the pen that gives the best shading - it is very soft and quite dry on the upstroke).

 

I think that liquid inks will always shade, even just a hint, even gels can do that (bad gel pens only though! Good gels are consistent; blobs of ink upon lifting the pen from the paper, so the ink that was about to go on the paper but can't spread anymore (because the writing motion has been stopped) pools where the nib/ tip is lifted).

 

For greater consistency (less shading) look into the inks that have been recommended so far (reviews are a good place and I too suggest samples before buying whole bottles, though Diamine is cheap, a "miss" won't be too catastrophic) and maybe a nib tweak might help, but I'm mostly useless at that and that takes some better knowledge/ experience, and if the ink recommendations fail, then maybe switch to a harder nib (eg Sailor or also Pilot steel nibs eg the Prera).

 

Yes I felt this upstroke pain for sure on my 91. See attached pic (before tuning). The first line was with a light hand (preferred) and the second line was with a slightly heavier hand (don't like to do). I have a Loom, Prera, and Metropolitan and I do notice slightly less shading with those than I did with the 91. That being said, as you pointed out, I think the ink is also an issue as even with the Loom, the Pilot Blue just looks so pale even if it doesn't shade as much. I am going to first try to find more saturated inks and go from there. I was able to open up the tines to the 91 and it is much better which is good, because I like the slight cushion/bounce of gold nibs and didn't want to be turned off to gold nibs forever (which is another reason I was asking minddance which gold nib pens worked better in their experience for this particular situation).

Edited July 5, 2018 by CoolBreeze

[Olya]

Ah good so you worked on your nib already! In that case it's due to ink saturation + nib softness. Pilot Blue is lovely when saturated (water evaporated), quite a bit darker and less shading, same for Pilot Blue Black.

 

A nib's softness isn't down to the material, but down to how the manufacturer wants their nibs. You can have soft steels and rigid golds. Sailor steel & gold nibs are very consistent and rigid, so you have a very similar experience whether you buy a eg Somiko/ Young Profit or Pro Gear Slim/ Sapporo // 1911 Standard (as opposed to Pilot, where eg the Prera steel nib is very hard, has good flow and writes finer than a Pilot n°5 gold nib, which is softer and can suffer from dry upstrokes like your and my nibs).

 

In your pic the Pilot Blue looks really very pale, I suppose that it was freshly inked? Cartridge? Any possible residue water? Even with these factors, my previous recommendations still stand!

[CoolBreeze]

Ah good so you worked on your nib already! In that case it's due to ink saturation + nib softness. Pilot Blue is lovely when saturated (water evaporated), quite a bit darker and less shading, same for Pilot Blue Black.

 

A nib's softness isn't down to the material, but down to how the manufacturer wants their nibs. You can have soft steels and rigid golds. Sailor steel & gold nibs are very consistent and rigid, so you have a very similar experience whether you buy a eg Somiko/ Young Profit or Pro Gear Slim/ Sapporo // 1911 Standard (as opposed to Pilot, where eg the Prera steel nib is very hard, has good flow and writes finer than a Pilot n°5 gold nib, which is softer and can suffer from dry upstrokes like your and my nibs).

 

In your pic the Pilot Blue looks really very pale, I suppose that it was freshly inked? Cartridge? Any possible residue water? Even with these factors, my previous recommendations still stand!

I am going to try evaporating it as well. It really does behave nicely in all other respects. That is really good to know about Sailor. I did not know that. I just knew there was a huge difference in cushion from the metro/prera to the 91. And as far as feel I did like that cushion.

 

The pen was inked for a couple days, converter, no water that I know of. I am going to try evaporating it as well as try some other colors. After all, half of the reason I got into fountain pens was the color selection!

Edited July 5, 2018 by CoolBreeze

[Olya]

I am going to try evaporating it as well. It really does behave nicely in all other respects. That is really good to know about Sailor. I did not know that. I just knew there was a huge difference in cushion from the metro/prera to the 91. And as far as feel I did like that cushion.

 

The pen was inked for a couple days, converter, no water that I know of. I am going to try evaporating it as well as try some other colors. After all, half of the reason I got into fountain pens was the color selection!

Ah ok. Hmmm, Pilot Blue is a paler ink, but the pic looks really very pale, might also be my monitor that doesn't show it 100%.

 

In any case, do report back after you experiment for a bit, whether you've found sth that you like!

[CoolBreeze]

Ah ok. Hmmm, Pilot Blue is a paler ink, but the pic looks really very pale, might also be my monitor that doesn't show it 100%.

 

In any case, do report back after you experiment for a bit, whether you've found sth that you like!

 

I think my phone makes pictures looked more washed out than they really are. Here is another pic with a different phone. Its still pale...just not as pale.

[minddance]

 

Are there any specific pens that give you that saturated line better than the Pilot gold nib pens. I know you mentioned the Pelikan. Any others?

Please do not get me wrong: that particular Pelikan was tuned by me to write in that particular way; I am not suggesting all Pelikans write that way

 

The weekend is here, now I will have time to post pictures of some solid, rather consistent saturated lines. Pictures are coming

[minddance]

Please pardon my atrocious handwriting

 

Rhodia Notebook 80gsm. There are 2 sides of this (any) rhodia paper, I wrote on the more absorbent side.

 

Pen: Sailor Pro Gear 21k in MF, unadjusted, unprimed feed, default ink flow.

 

Ink: Diamine Midnight, unadulterated. Freshly inked.

 

Picture taken in sunlight using a Samsung Galaxy S8edge.

 

Under magnification, there are tonal variations but at a reading distance, the lines can appear unshaded and rather solid. This is Rhodia Paper, slick and smooth and almost always, shades. It would be less shadey with absorbent papers.

 

More pictures follow.