Help! How Do You Hold Your Fountain Pen?

[cattar]

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.

[ardene]

  On 7/8/2018 at 9:21 PM, cattar said:

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

 

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

 

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

 

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

 

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

 

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.

 

 

That's sensible. It also fits with the reports of graphologists that there is no foolproof way to figure out whether something was written with the left or right hand or that two different samples of writing come from one ambidextrous person writing with different hands without other samples with known origin from the people in question.

[Bo Bo Olson]

For a tid bit, President Garfield who was assassinated in 1881, taking months to die; being in the daily prayers of a Nation; could write Greek with one hand and Latin with the other at the same time.

He was self taught being a long cabin type teacher, before getting out into the world; becoming a General, Governor before becoming President.

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/7/2018 at 1:47 PM, ardene said:

Yes, of course, there's no need to say more about the plot.

 

The quink halo has been witnessed personally by me, and it's also immortalised in Wikipedia in the photo in the Features section. The blot was apparently created after dropping some blue-black(?) ink on a thick paper saturated with water with a pipette or by touching briefly a pen on the paper.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quink#Features

 

Other blacks/blue-blacks have yellow pigment inside, too. But this might not really matter; since you're writing fiction there's no need to be 100% forensically accurate. Check this thread out for the yellows in the black:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/230305-a-chromatographical-search-for-the-perfect-blue-black/

 

There might be other similar threads.

 

I might just write something at some point! A tweet-size (up to 240 characters) story might go like this:

 

The torch pointed down the bow. Debris soup pulled gently aside. Pulverised plane, endless sparkling who-knows-what, swayed by breeze. A sneaker, a teddy bear, a passport. “There’s nobody here now” he exhaled, but kept looking.

 

I've tried to show rather than bluntly tell. Can you figure out what might be going on there?

 

You're right, it does leave a Yellow halo around the blot. I am going to take out my papers with dried quink ink and dampen the paper to see if the same pattern is produced with previously dried ink.

 

I cannot so easily explain my obsession for being forensically accurate, but it has probably emerged after watching Christopher Nolan and David Fincher's films (like Dunkirk, and The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo). In these films, most of the details are represented so accurately, you end up greatly appreciating the attention to detail. In a sense, forensic accuracy immortalises a story - because then it's not simple 'fiction' anymore. And I take this a step further in my book by connecting everything to very real-world events. The ending, though happy, leaves the reader with some grim implications regarding the government and surveillance, and the nature of humans. I want to leave the reader scared and wondering if the events in the book really happened - for all they might know, it's a history lesson.

 

That little passage is intriguing. I like it! I can tell what is going on - A passenger plane has crashed into the water? What's confirmed is that it's a plane crash, and the search for bodies is ongoing.

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/7/2018 at 8:27 PM, knarflj said:

 

I don't know about pressures and angles, but not all lefties hook their hand above the writing line, and not all of them use the same position at all times.

http://www.iampeth.com/lesson/left-handed/left-handed-writing

http://handedness.org/action/leftwrite.html#diagram

http://www.clas.co.uk/left-handers.html

 

The last link is directed at calligraphers, not really about normal handwriting, but may still be instructive. I'm married to a leftie, and he sometimes uses the hook position, sometimes the one shown in figure two of the second link. I had to ask him, though - I wouldn't have known just from the many samples of his writing I've seen over the past few decades.

 

I've not had time to inspect that sheet of paper to see whether there are discernible differences in pressure or nib rotation, btw; I'm hoping actually to find time to ask my husband whether he can tell, since it seems that to have someone other than the writer find the differences (if any) would be a closer scenario to the one in your plot than just doing it myself, but he's been busy all day.

 

Jenny

 

Ah, I see - that is interesting! I have personally known around three lefties in my life, and all three used to hook their hand above the line - using the "Under the line" hold would be uncomfortable in academic environments because it would require a very specific slant to the table that isn't generally available.

 

Oh,you're married to one! I believe it would take a trained eye to notice? Lefties are a little scarce in 'Rounding' their handwritings while using the hook method I've noticed - if you could, and I hope it's not too much to ask, get a sample of his handwriting, that would be great - with the hook method and without.

 

  On 7/8/2018 at 3:15 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Great idea about using a lefty, with two styles of hold.

 

I know, right! It's a smart idea. I think ardene was the one who recommended it! But I bet there must be a way to find out who's a lefty and who's not - I'm going to go look for lefty handwriting samples.

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/8/2018 at 9:21 PM, cattar said:

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

 

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

 

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

 

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

 

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

 

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.

 

H'm, I see.

 

But I believe that smearing is very lefty specific! In fact, if a writer is consistently smearing ink, I'd say with 98% certainty that he is a lefty - no right-handed hold is such that the hand moves over already written words. But I'll keep looking - let's see!

[cattar]

Righties tend to 'believe' a lot of things about lefties.
As OP, you're going for forensic accuracy.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.
Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum.

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/8/2018 at 10:56 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

For a tid bit, President Garfield who was assassinated in 1881, taking months to die; being in the daily prayers of a Nation; could write Greek with one hand and Latin with the other at the same time.

He was self taught being a long cabin type teacher, before getting out into the world; becoming a General, Governor before becoming President.

 

Oh? Two different languages with two different hands! That must take a lot of practice.

 

Leonardo Da Vinci was Ambidextrous as well - And he could write 'Mirrored'

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/9/2018 at 3:57 AM, cattar said:

Righties tend to 'believe' a lot of things about lefties.

As OP, you're going for forensic accuracy.

 

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.

Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum.

 

Oh?

Another example of Speculation being disproven with facts. I will look at the other threads regarding smearing on this thread - this can prove to be a very important point of the plot cause Smearing can give away who the author of the note was!! This is exciting, thanks Cattar.

 

I do believe smearing also depends on the kind of ink used - I could find a situation/combination of inks - that when mixed don't dry out quickly. Perfect! And also, of course, I better look into weather, paper and whatnot that could affect how the ink dries.

Edited July 9, 2018 by fountainphreak

[Bo Bo Olson]

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[ardene]

  On 7/9/2018 at 3:02 AM, fountainphreak said:

 

You're right, it does leave a Yellow halo around the blot. I am going to take out my papers with dried quink ink and dampen the paper to see if the same pattern is produced with previously dried ink.

 

I cannot so easily explain my obsession for being forensically accurate, but it has probably emerged after watching Christopher Nolan and David Fincher's films (like Dunkirk, and The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo). In these films, most of the details are represented so accurately, you end up greatly appreciating the attention to detail. In a sense, forensic accuracy immortalises a story - because then it's not simple 'fiction' anymore. And I take this a step further in my book by connecting everything to very real-world events. The ending, though happy, leaves the reader with some grim implications regarding the government and surveillance, and the nature of humans. I want to leave the reader scared and wondering if the events in the book really happened - for all they might know, it's a history lesson.

 

That little passage is intriguing. I like it! I can tell what is going on - A passenger plane has crashed into the water? What's confirmed is that it's a plane crash, and the search for bodies is ongoing.

 

 

You guessed right about the passage. The shiny floating things are cabin insulation. (I've had to somehow live up to being called creative by you earlier).

 

I just brought up the left-right hand debate, the idea of a leftie with two writing style's is Bo Bo's.

 

It's interesting that you want to make it historical fiction. I like such books.

 

I don't have experience with a variety of inks to help you further with any possible identifiable characteristics of a given particular ink versus the others. Of course, inks are for the past 100 or so years painstakingly designed to have as few quirks as possible.

 

Smearing seems to be a promising way to go with this.

Edited July 9, 2018 by ardene

[cattar]

  On 7/9/2018 at 9:56 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.

 

Nope.

 

Overwriting and sidewriting don't cause smearing or require super-fast-drying inks.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.

Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum. Even though it's not a problem for you, it is for some other righties.

 

The challenge for lefties is all the rightie talk about how the world works for lefties.

 

 

eta. now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

Edited July 9, 2018 by cattar

[knarflj]

  On 7/6/2018 at 4:20 AM, fountainphreak said:

 

The lucky point for me is that the detective and the person who wrote the note know each other intimately, and hence obviously they are familiar with each other's handwriting - and of course, the plot to resolve the detective has to realise this before too long. Yes, I believe some styles like your Printed Straight (2nd), and extremely Wide and Slanted (2nd last) do a terrific job of throwing one off the scent, even if only briefly.

 

What I am interested in knowing is, if and only if you have the time to spend on it, whether you used any detectable pressure variations across your handwriting styles - this can be checked by feeling the back of the paper or holding it against the light, but I suspect there won't be any because any experienced writer will use the light hold as a rule.

 

The other thing I wanted to know is whether the part of the nib that scratched the paper changed significantly (like the left side in one hold vs the right side in another).

 

We laughed a little at the idea that my upright print might make anyone think someone else had written something, since that's my default script when either taking notes or writing anything for other people to read. My husband says the cursive script near the middle of the page is the one most likely to make him stop and think (this surprised me a bit, because I use that script a lot; but I realized upon reflection that I mostly use it for things like rough drafts, not for communicating to others) - but if he found something in our house written in that script, he'd probably still think first either of me or one of our daughters, not of a stranger.

 

Before I showed that page to him, it occurred to me that both the paper used and the writing surface could affect evidence of pressure. I had used a fairly heavy paper (HP 32lb) for the musings I posted earlier, so I tried writing out the opening two lines of Richard III in three different scripts with two different monoline nibs on two different writing surfaces (a glass table, and the same table with a writing mat under the paper), on cheap filler paper. Neither of us could see any indications or pressure, pressure differences, or differences in the way the nib moved on or scratched the paper, either on the original page of musings, or on the second sheet - no difference evident with the different surfaces, either. Not much joy for you there, I'm afraid.

 

  On 7/9/2018 at 3:14 AM, fountainphreak said:

 

Ah, I see - that is interesting! I have personally known around three lefties in my life, and all three used to hook their hand above the line - using the "Under the line" hold would be uncomfortable in academic environments because it would require a very specific slant to the table that isn't generally available.

 

Oh,you're married to one! I believe it would take a trained eye to notice? Lefties are a little scarce in 'Rounding' their handwritings while using the hook method I've noticed - if you could, and I hope it's not too much to ask, get a sample of his handwriting, that would be great - with the hook method and without.

 

 

I'm not sure about the "under the line" hold being particularly difficult for a leftie in an academic environment; I think it's mostly a matter of turning the paper in the opposite direction from a right-hander. But I will ask my husband. I will also ask whether he can spare a few minutes to supply samples of over- and under-writing for you.

 

Jenny

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/9/2018 at 9:56 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.

Yeah - exactly!

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/9/2018 at 12:25 PM, ardene said:

 

 

You guessed right about the passage. The shiny floating things are cabin insulation. (I've had to somehow live up to being called creative by you earlier).

 

I just brought up the left-right hand debate, the idea of a leftie with two writing style's is Bo Bo's.

 

It's interesting that you want to make it historical fiction. I like such books.

 

I don't have experience with a variety of inks to help you further with any possible identifiable characteristics of a given particular ink versus the others. Of course, inks are for the past 100 or so years painstakingly designed to have as few quirks as possible.

 

Smearing seems to be a promising way to go with this.

 

There is indeed something beautiful about historical fiction - the fact that all the facts have been painstakingly put together for accuracy - it never gets boring!

 

Yeah, i've been googling different inks and their properties in an attempt to grasp what factors cause might result in smearing - thanks for all of your help!

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/9/2018 at 3:12 PM, cattar said:

 

Nope.

 

Overwriting and sidewriting don't cause smearing or require super-fast-drying inks.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.

Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum. Even though it's not a problem for you, it is for some other righties.

 

The challenge for lefties is all the rightie talk about how the world works for lefties.

 

 

eta. now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

 

Hmm. Is that so?

[fountainphreak]

  On 7/9/2018 at 7:52 PM, knarflj said:

 

We laughed a little at the idea that my upright print might make anyone think someone else had written something, since that's my default script when either taking notes or writing anything for other people to read. My husband says the cursive script near the middle of the page is the one most likely to make him stop and think (this surprised me a bit, because I use that script a lot; but I realized upon reflection that I mostly use it for things like rough drafts, not for communicating to others) - but if he found something in our house written in that script, he'd probably still think first either of me or one of our daughters, not of a stranger.

 

Before I showed that page to him, it occurred to me that both the paper used and the writing surface could affect evidence of pressure. I had used a fairly heavy paper (HP 32lb) for the musings I posted earlier, so I tried writing out the opening two lines of Richard III in three different scripts with two different monoline nibs on two different writing surfaces (a glass table, and the same table with a writing mat under the paper), on cheap filler paper. Neither of us could see any indications or pressure, pressure differences, or differences in the way the nib moved on or scratched the paper, either on the original page of musings, or on the second sheet - no difference evident with the different surfaces, either. Not much joy for you there, I'm afraid.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the "under the line" hold being particularly difficult for a leftie in an academic environment; I think it's mostly a matter of turning the paper in the opposite direction from a right-hander. But I will ask my husband. I will also ask whether he can spare a few minutes to supply samples of over- and under-writing for you.

 

Jenny

 

Yes, a person who knows how to write with a fountain will leave no pressure marks - that much I've come to realise because the hold is really pressure-free unlike that of a ball point pen, for example. Thank you so much for confirming this, though.

 

The idea that your cursive made your husband momentarily stop and think is a good sign for my case.

 

H'm, you may be right about this - may just be a matter of tilting the page in a certain direction.

 

Thank you so much for all the effort you are going through to help me out, I really, really appreciate it! Especially the fact that you checked the pressure and indentations using not just separate handwritings, but also a hard and soft surface under the paper. It means a lot to me.

 

--If you still have the paper, try to feel what you have written with your finger from the backside of he page, I wonder if that might reveal something? Because on the medium size paper I've tried writing on, there have been marks. Maybe it's just the paper, or maybe it's because of the fact that my fountain pen is rather heavy.

 

Thank You!

[TheDutchGuy]

  On 6/26/2018 at 7:55 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

I use the 'forefinger up', way of grasping a fountain pen, an automatic light grip, which takes three minutes to learn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much for pointing out this discussion to me, BoBo! I gave this a try. At first, it felt totally unnatural and I had trouble to even get the nib on paper! But one thing was immediately obvious: no writer’s cramp! My index finger doesn’t lift from the pen anymore if it’s kept straight, like you do in your photos. With my normal grip, my index fingers straightens upwards and there’s nothing I can do about it. So this info is very, very useful to me!

[JosephKing]

Edit: after reviewing knarflj's picture and some more of the thread, I don't think the following is as relevant to figuring out if the writer is the owner of the pen; at the time, I was focused on someone faking a slant with a flexible nib

 

Hopefully these haven't already been stated, and might add to your clues:

1) a difficulty I've had in learning to add a slant to my writing is consistency of angle. Someone who is comfortable with their handwriting is more likely to be have similar angles for given letters

2) Rhythm creates subtle line variation, but unnatural writing tends to be uniform and controlled

3) An unpracticed hand may transition from descender to ascender before fully releasing pressure, causing a lateral force on the spread tines

4) An unpracticed hand may slightly rotate the nib causing a jagged edge on either side of the descender

Edited July 1, 2020 by JosephKing

[txomsy]

Methinks there is no clear giveaway on writing. Methinks so despite the wealth of pseudoscientific graphology literature on telling personality and the color of underwear worn while writing just by looking at the shape of letters.

 

Methinks so because I have seen many copy and instruction books and, despite the current trend to teach "the only one true way to write", reality is that over time each master had his/her own recipes, about everything. From holding the pen, orienting the paper, ink recipes, script shapes and nearly unnoticeable differences in letter shapes. There is not just one reference rule against which to match deviations to draw conclusions.

 

On top of that, over the ages calligraphers have learnt to master control of letter forms and make them as uniform as possible. And for more than one script.

 

On the archtypal oriental plot, the "illustrated" character retires for calligraphy in "zen-like" moments. The goal often being to give it some emotional character, which is (untoldly) achieved through unsconscious appropriate slight deformations that, while maintaining proportions, transmit a given feeling.

 

An illustrated devious guy would therefore, know proper calligraphy because of his education, have worked out how to hide "personality" in uniformity of script, have worked out how to mislead by giving it the desired "twist" to add the desired meaning.

 

An odd, educated, person may even be ambidextrous, and then... how'd you tell this guy was (or wasn't) because s/he was a leftie/righttie if you don't know s/he can be either? That would hardly stand a good lawyer in front of a good judge or jury. Mostly if the guy always privately reserves one hand for specific situations.

 

If you want to get hints from writing, either, a ) take a literary license and exploit general gullibility saying some graphologist identified the author personality unambiguously from the dot on an i, b ) use some slip-off or mistake (like the writer using a Noodler's unforgeable ink by error, which would allow unambiguous identification), or c ) use something else unrelated to the way this person holds the pen.

 

As for how do I hold my pens?

 

It dee-pen-ds . Sometimes wrongly, sometimes like I learnt I should in primary school, sometimes one way or another. Often it depends on the pen, on the length of the section, specially when it is a piston filler that may break at the window, or close to the nib (if I fear the section may break), holding it tight or loose depending on the script I practice, and nib... writing straight or slanted...

 

For italic you should consider that the nib must be held at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal of the writing base line. Stubs are more forgiving, but italic nibs demand because of that that the hole tip be in contact with paper which forces the pen to be in a specific orientation, different from other scripts, to avoid one corner lifting from the paper, so often it is more oriented to the right. This can be partially compensated by changing the slant wrt the paper as then the angle is more forgiving.

 

For cursive you should prefer holding the pen oriented more to the left so you have better control of thicks and thins. Which makes cursive easier for lefties. Using a flex pen in a "normal" (bic-like) position works better for a non-slanted, vertical script.

 

A novice may turn the pen in his hands and find railroading or defects as the contact surface between nib and paper is disrupted. An educated person who's been using FPs for a long time would hardly make that mistake, specially with a familiar pen --unless intentionally.

 

Point is, if you are "educated" you know how to properly write, have uniformity, can change between several styles and hide yourself. And also know how to make mistakes under vigilance (just rotate or place the pen in a suboptimal position and all your writing will be loaded with failures that will "obviously" demonstrate you do not know how to write the suspected note and can't be the author).

 

That's why grahology is a pesudoscience. It's trivial to trick. It is more difficult to fool someone who looks at specific trends in fast/quick writing --if you wrote the note in a hassle, and you are asked to sign quickly these muscular twitches may show, but knowing that, it's just a matter of writing your note carefully so you can easily exploit many deniability tricks later. And if later they ask you to write slowly, you may just change to other script. Or you can have a script for formal, other for informal and other for deniable situations.

 

It is trivial to have an "official" writing that "officially" identifies you and a "deniable" writing that cannot be associated with you (sorta Jekyll and Hyde).

 

What you cannot change so easily is the physical properties of ink or paper. Say, he uses some unusual paper (maybe one he does never use in normal situations), but e.g. some minuscule fibers get stuck between the tines of the nib, and the detective notices these fibers an after analyzing them discovers they are the same as the unusual paper used for the note in question. That's all easy to plot in an FP frame, fully justifiable and makes sense.