Pilot Custom 823 Nib - M Or B?

[Cassotto]

I've often read that Japanese nibs of a specific size are finer than European nibs of the same size.

 

I'm thinking of buying myself a Pilot Custom 823, but I don't know whether to buy it with a medium or a broad nib. The two nibs I'm more familiar with are the M nib in my Parker Vectors, and the F nib in my Waterman Kultur (though I can't say I see a lot of difference between the two of them, in spite of one being M and the other F).

 

Which of the two Pilot nibs would be more similar to these?

 

Thanks!

 

[katerchen]

In my sample size, I would say that Pilot Mediums are rather generous ... at least in the Custom line.

 

Sailor and Platinum, absolutely narrower. Their Mediums barely qualify as an EF.

 

I'll try to remember and do a writing sample when I get home. But my initial feel is that a Medium might be enough for you.

[rafapa]

My experience is that the B nib in the Pilot 823 is similar to the B nib in a Pelikan 800.

[katerchen]

OK, hopefully this will help you. Disclaimer : line width varies with paper and ink and I did not normalize on ink, used whatever I had in those pens.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8XpoLqwy4eBvJNys2

 

Oh. Just noticed. The Falcon is SF, *not* SFM

 

-k

Edited May 22, 2018 by katerchen

[Driften]

My Pilot 823 B puts down a 0.6mm line which is about what my other Pilot M's do so mine is running on the narrow side. From other posts from people the M and B are very close in width to each other in the 823.

[OCArt]

Experiences (and nibs) can certainly vary but I recently got a 823 in Broad and it is definitely narrower than my M800 B. I'd say more like a Pelikan medium.

My experience is that the B nib in the Pilot 823 is similar to the B nib in a Pelikan 800.

[Tseg]

I'd say more like a Pelikan medium.

Ha! My Pelikan M1000 Medium is like a BB in most anyone’s book. With that said, my experience with my Sailor Broad is wide and varied depending on ink and paper (and to be fair, same with my M1000, just less so). It can look and feel anywhere from a Western Fine to a Western Broad.

[Cassotto]

Thanks everyone!

 

I'd say that the lines drawn by the pens I mentioned in my original message (the Vector and the Kultur) are 0.5 mm at the most, so, taking together all you've said, I'd think the M nib would be enough for me... Or perhaps not, if there's as much variation as you say. The comparison among different pens and nibs makes me believe the M nib in the 823 pen won't be too thin.

 

A (maybe silly) question, is it possible to buy a pen with a nib and, afterwards, buy a separate nib if I'm not happy with the first one? Or are spare nibs not sold separately? I'm specially interested in the case of the Pilot 823, in case it depends on the brand and model.

[Glenn Atkins]

I don't think so for the 823.

 

Glenn

[Kaveh]

Here is a comparison between a Pelikan M800 M-nib and a Custom 823 B-nib. Hope this helps

 

[Cassotto]

Thanks! I think the M nib will be enough. If not, having a pen writing slightly thinner lines than I'm used to won't be that distressing, I hope!

[Fatalpotato]

Thanks! I think the M nib will be enough. If not, having a pen writing slightly thinner lines than I'm used to won't be that distressing, I hope!

You can also use the nib nook available in goulet website for pilot 823 nib comparisons though I don't think they have the pens you got available on their website. However you can always check out from previous reviewers in this website or somewhere else, to compare and contrast. To my knowledge, 823 has somewhat a stiff nib, which means the line will probably be leaner than their softer nibs

[flipper_gv]

Here is a comparison between a Pelikan M800 M-nib and a Custom 823 B-nib. Hope this helps

 

 

That is the widest Pilot medium nib and the narrowest Pelikan m800 medium nib I've ever seen

[Bo Bo Olson]

As for nib widths of different companies being close; it is normal, in each pen company has it's very own standards.................and I'd not bet a six pack of beer that the numbered width nibs, 1.2, 1.) or 0.8, or what ever else will be exactly the same across the board.

Because:

Even within the company's standards there is tolerance/slop. Where within a company's standards, a Skinny M can = exactly a Fat F, and if one or both are 'easily' 1/1000's with in it's own width range, you will not be able to see such small differences.

 

Ron Zorn tolerance...'secret'.....there is lots of slop with in a width range.....and if the next company is fatter, like once Parker was always wider than Sheaffer. Companies either through Corner Pen Shoppe market survey's....or training the customer to be brand loyal, in the day of One Man, One Pen..............Parker did not want to make a nib as narrow as Sheaffer......some Parker user could become confused if that was so.....and make a horrible mistake; and buy a Sheaffer if the nibs were the same width.

 

.....then comes the era, before the '97 Pelikan was thinner than both Parker and Sheaffer....back then the 800 had it's own width, narrower than then narrower than modern 400. The Waterman had two nib width ranges, one "exactly" as wide as the 400, the other considerably narrower.

Then the Pelikan EF was narrower than all the ones listed on this old chart....from before Japanese pens stopped being just a local nitch market pen in Japan, and started selling world wide.

That of course is no longer true in modern Pelikans out side the 200's old width nib.

Company, era, and tolerance.........= a lot of 1/2 sized nibs....as standard, then add slop to it. Real skinny, relatively skinny, narrow, middle, broad....real wide.....is IMO all you can count on............widths of different companies will over lap...tolerance can go either way....one could have a Fat M, and a Skinny F .....just as easy as skinny M or fat F.

Some folks do get lucky and get right in the middle of that company's tolerance.

Could be best to just stay within one company....so one could luck out with a standard width.

No one does that any more.....so exactness of what width a nib has is hope and guess.

About the only truth is Japanese nibs run skinnier than marked. (If you started with western cursive nibs. If you started with Japanese nibs made for tiny printed script....then western nibs will be 'Fat'.)

 

""""Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050""""

 

Even in Japan where the nibs run @ a width narrower than marked....if compared to western, each company has it's very own standards. Sailor is the Fat nib, Pilot is the Skinny nib.

 

What do you want the Japanese nib to do? For shading inks on good to better paper, a western F (Japanese M) or western M (Japanese is a good nib for that.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Honeybadgers]

For me, an M nib is the worst of all worlds, and also hardest to resell. I have zero interest in a pen with an M nib unless it's a stonking good deal.

 

If you want a broader line, go for the B. Japanese B's aren't bonkers, I honestly sometimes wish they were broader. I find myself using my sailor 1911S 21k Zoom nib and my platinum 3776 C (BB) more than my japanese broads. But I also know I'd never touch a 3776 or sailor with an M nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

It always comes down to what you want the nib to do....what you want the nib to do to the ink, if after shading or sheen.

 

Using MB Toffee back when I was newer. I like shading inks.

 

F was light with dark trails.

M was 50-50 in shading , breaking my anti-M prejudice I picked up here on the com.***

B was dark with light trails.

 

Semi-flex was dark because of the wetter nib.

 

You see I don't buy a pen with the thought of having to sell it....and I've bought a couple Pelikan 200/215's lately in M, and am quite happy with them. M is a good width for shading, besides being a slight tad smoother than an F.

I think an M would be better than an F for glitter or sheen inks also.

 

***Most folks come in on an M, then go narrow or wide. I went wide. Therefore M gets disrespected and it should not be. There are Volumes written, on "The Joy of Going Narrow", or "The Joy of Going Wide".

So poor M, with just a Sonnet by Shakespeare gets ignored. Been there, done that, cubed. Yet they really haven't been......M-B, M and M-F.............depending on manufacturer and era you too can have a full assortment of M's to go with the other widths.

 

I must admit, I went wide.....and . F was only bought because I wanted/needed that make or model and couldn't find it in B....or even M . Now I have a lot of F's...even a few EF's.

Now I have no hesitation in grabbing a M nib..........vintage or semi-vintage of course, I don't like modern Pelikan nibs outside the 200.

I do have semi/maxi-semi-flex nibs in M, BB, B, F and one in EF.........and am happy with my M nibs, but I had my prejudice broken.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[MG66]

For me, my Pilot Metropolitan M nib is the perfect size. A little bigger than some western Fines, about the same as others. I don't know if it's the same size as the 823 M but I hope to find out at the Triangle Pen Show this weekend. If I don't find an 823 M in Black, I will order one as soon as I get back from the show. It's THE pen I'm after right now.

 

C

[Cassotto]

Very interesting information here. I'd never thought that picking a nib size would be that complex (mainly when it's only about M vs B nibs).

 

If I must go from M to somewhere, it'll be B, not F. But I think that, apart from what I want the pen to do for me, it also depends on the size of one's handwriting. Mine is not particularly big, so a B nib might make it sort of too dense, mightn't it?

 

Anyway, I found that the Pilot 823 that I had seen relatively cheap only came with a M nib (the B nib was considerably more expensive), so I ordered the M nib. It's in the post now and should be here in a few days, so I'll let you know what I think about it when I get it.

 

Thanks a lot for your contributions to the discussion!

[Driften]

Hope you enjoy the pen!

[Fatalpotato]

Good choice either way! As a friction fit nib that is found in many other pilot pens, even if you don't like the width, you can always buy another size and swap it yourself