Fountain Pen Found In Japanese Shipwreck

[Karmachanic]

  On 5/18/2018 at 11:36 AM, Herrjaeger said:

the theory should fit the facts.

 

[Larry Barrieau]

The first post made me skeptical. The "too good to be true" phrase rang out. Then the picture of the pen added to my doubt. And then we find that it is from the 50's.

All of these things may be true, but I wouldn't bet on it. And if they are true, the pen should be turned in to the officials at Truk and an exact location of the find should be mapped. I'm sure divers there are told that nothing is to be removed from the wrecks.

[darhubsch]

Is anyone willing to flesh out the argument that it was produced in the 1950s? Were pens of this style not produced in the 1940s?

 

I can post more photos of the mechanism if thats of interest. Basically the back end extends out and theres sort of a piston that I assume you use to draw ink up into the pen. Also, not knowing anything about the nibs, is there another piece that's missing? The tip of it is removable..is that not the only piece you would use to write with?

[Tseg]

  On 5/19/2018 at 12:58 AM, darhubsch said:

Is anyone willing to flesh out the argument that it was produced in the 1950s? Were pens of this style not produced in the 1940s?

 

I can post more photos of the mechanism if thats of interest. Basically the back end extends out and theres sort of a piston that I assume you use to draw ink up into the pen. Also, not knowing anything about the nibs, is there another piece that's missing? The tip of it is removable..is that not the only piece you would use to write with?

 

I can guarantee you from the late-1930's through mid-1940's 'Made in Tokyo, Japan' would not be in English.

[darhubsch]

Interesting. How come? Did Japanese manufacturers only start adding inscriptions like that after the war when they started exporting items like this? I'm just interested in learning more about pens from this era; that's why I started the thread!

[cattar]

Here's the history on markings of imported goods.

 

In 1891, The McKinley Tariff Act took effect and required that goods imported to the US be marked with country of origin/manufacture. For imported Japanese goods, the markings Nippon, Made in Nippon, Japan, Made in Japan were all accepted.

 

In 1921, the Customs Bureau, ruled that that goods imported to the US be marked in English with country of origin/manufacture. For imported Japanese goods, the markings Japan, Made in Japan were accepted.

 

From 1941-47, during WWII, there was an embargo on imported goods from Japan.

 

From 1947-1952, during the Occupation, customs ruled that imported Japanese goods must use the markings Japan, Made in Japan, Occupied Japan or Made in Occupied Japan.

 

In 1952, the Occupation ended. Japanese goods must use the markings Japan or Made in Japan.

 

 

And as a former guide,
One of the biggest challenges is teaching clients to take only memories and photos, to leave no trace.
It's disappointing that a self-professed guide is stealing from a protected site.
Every dive site for that lagoon includes the reminder that "Souvenir taking of relics from the area are prohibited by law."

Edited May 19, 2018 by cattar

[darhubsch]

Alright. So the item could have been produced before the war and intended for export. That's what I took away from your post...? Am I missing something?

 

As to comments about stealing, etc I would just remind you that you don't know what I intend to do with it. I did not express any intent to keep it for myself or sell it or whatever. I live and work in Chuuk, I am fully aware of all local laws and regulations,as well as the culture and common norms of wreck diving. I also make a living off the tourism industry here, so I have a vested interest in protecting the wrecks which I dare say is more than any of you do.

 

When I found it, I removed it and cleaned it up so that I could get more information about what it was. If you think that was wrong, that's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it!

[praxim]

For the information of other readers, I have reported this user and entire thread.

 

My suggestion is to offer no help to their enterprise, darhubsch being a self-acknowledged current law-breaker trawling for information in relation to that while having no interest in any other thread, and not even denying that their intention is to keep or to sell the goods (merely "did not express" it).

[Larry Barrieau]

You are "fully aware of all local laws and regulations". What do those laws and regulations say about removing artifacts from the sunken ships? Please quote them for us. Do you tell your diving clients about the regulations against removing anything from those ships? I see a few possibilities here; That every thing in the op is true. Or, that a crime has been committed. Or, Someone found an old pen at an antique store and is trying to jack up the price.

[seven4times]

In case anyone is still interested... We can say with 100% confidence that this pen was made before the ww2, likely in the mid 1930s. I have no reason to believe that the original poster was dishonest. English text was used on domestic Japanese pens since the 1910s. Seitos (bar accent above the O) were boutique pens, and are of the highest quality. I have not heard of a post-war Seito, and other high-end pen makers based in Tokyo had their facilities destroyed by firebombing.

 

It's a shame that the nib was missing, it's not much of a pen without one. Perhaps it was taken by someone else in an earlier Dive? I'm not sure why anyone would bring a parts pen along on a seafaring engagment, but any assortment of things could have lead to it's 2018 state, I suppose.

[Karmachanic]

  On 1/13/2022 at 4:15 PM, seven4times said:

We can say with 100% confidence that this pen was made before the ww2, likely in the mid 1930s.

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Who is "we"?

@stan's list, which, in part, covers defunct Japanese pen makers staring in the 1920s, makes no mention of Seito, nor do I find any reference online.  Please give us more information about this brand to substantiate your claim.

 

Thank you.

[seven4times]

  On 1/13/2022 at 6:02 PM, Karmachanic said:

 

Who is "we"?

@stan's list, which, in part, covers defunct Japanese pen makers staring in the 1920s, makes no mention of Seito, nor do I find any reference online.  Please give us more information about this brand to substantiate your claim.

 

Thank you.

Expand  

We is us. We can say with full confidence that the subject of this thread is a pre-war pen. While pre-war Japanese pens accompany a barren wasteland of immediate refferences, I have seen a handful of Seito pens, and each are formed and marked in ways that are undoubtedly tied to the late 20s or 30s. There is, what we can call, an unmistakable hallmark of 'golden age' Japanese pens. The production quality (and size - Seitos are large) of early 50s pens was severely lacking due to cultural and economic rebuilding efforts - so if you find yourself, as a somewhat experienced eye questioning... "is this pen pre-war or not?" there's a high likelyhood it's either pre-war, or from the mid 50s-60s. Another miscelaneous form of support is that 50s-60s pens which genuinely look pre war will have unbranded nibs, other than Platinum and maybe Yotsubishi (the maybe is because... they don't really look pre war). We have good records of high quality makers from the post war period, especially makers that can afford to brand and make their own nibs in house - so... the lack of records point to a high likelyhood of destroyed facilties due to U.S. firebombing of Tokyo. The appearance of "The..." in "The Seito", as well as the "Safety pen" text on the nib indicates that the makers were inspired by Onoto, which had peak popularity in the 20s. Another common occurance in the early days of pen making was for Japanese companies to display both the names of the production/ mfg company and the seperate brand name for their pen line. For example here, the markings on this Seito is just like Namiki's Pilot, and Maruzen's Athena. There are too many subtle indicators, including the circumstances in which the pen was found, to have any doubt that this pen was made in the 30s.

[Karmachanic]

@seven4times Thank you,  You mentioned having seen 30s Seito pens in the past.  Do you have, or do you know of,  images of such pens?  Images of 50s pens would also be helpful.

[Honeybadgers]

My mom pulled a fountain pen off the Akibasan Maru back in the 1970's. These ships were NOT protected back in the day, and they are now. Removing artifacts from a WW2 shipwreck in the past 30-40 years is almost certainly very illegal

 

The nib on mine is 14k and reads "Hiratsuka" "FLARZ" "14k gold" "2" "pen" 

 

Pens with 14k gold are likely early 30's or older, as gold rationing was going on during Japan's expansionism period. During and shortly after the war, common FP's would have had "shiro" steel nibs.

 

Mine was taken in by and restored by Wancher in Japan for free over a year or so, to bare minimum working order. They wouldn't let me pay them. I wish it was engraved, as returning it to the sailor's family would be cool, but alas, all we know was it was a random fountain pen with a mis-matchedcap in the forecastle of the ship when it was sunk with nearly all-hands in 1944

[Number99]

Hello.

 

 Thank you for your interest in old Japanese pens.😉

 

I will explain Japanese Romaji notation（Japanese sentences are indicated with Japanese pronunciation by a letter of the alphabet, called Romaji text in Japan.） and Japanese "Kanji".

 

 "青島" "AOSIMA" can also be read as "SEITO" or "seitō.

Kanji have two different readings, 「音読み」on-yomi（pronunciation） and 「訓読み」kun-yomi（pronunciation）.

"AOSIMA" is "kun-yomi" and "seitō"and "SEITO is "on-yomi".

The on-yomi is close to the Chinese language（pronunciation） and the kun-yomi is used to express the traditional Japanese language.

For example,"東京" "Tokyo" is "tōkyō" when written in Roman letters in "on-yomi".

 In addition,"大阪" "Osaka" is "ōsaka" when written in Roman letters in "kun-yomi" .

And in fact, it is pronounced "toh-kyoh""tou-kyo-u" and "oh-saka""o-u-saka".

"Ō" corresponds to "oh""ou", and there are many examples where "ō" has been changed to "o".

 

Even if you apply the reading and display method, it cannot be said that the mystery has been solved.

 This is because changing the reading of proper nouns is a special case.

 

 However, when a trademark owner makes his own changes and devises a new brand or model name, it may be possible to make changes.

 

*Romaji=Roman letters.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese?wprov=sfla1

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Number99
Sentence additions and corrections.

[Number99]

Then there is one important thing.

 It is highly probable that the pen is a relic of a person who died in the war as a soldier or a civilian in the former Japanese army.

 Please return it to the bereaved family as a relic of the remains through the Government of Micronesia, or return it to its place and regain the opportunity to quietly spend time as a proof of the existence of the dead.

 I don't know if finding the remains of the war dead touches the law of Micronesia.

 I hope to follow moral thinking and the law.

 There are tens of thousands of examples of burying local stones instead of ashes.

Please….

 

*I apologize in advance if this post violates the purpose of the forum.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Number99
Some additions.

[seven4times]

Thanks for your contributions @Number99. I have a question for you. Do you have any theory for why 1910-1930s Japanese pens are so rare? Did it take until the 50s to fully phase out brushes, or was there perhaps a lot of gold melted down and pens destroyed due to the war and late 30s expansion efforts? I can't seem to find any english commentary on the general rarity of old Japanese pens.

 

@Karmachanic I have photos of two Seito pens. The silver one is gigantic, the body is larger and heavier than a Namiki emperor, and, as I mentioned before, is of the highest quality. Although the first pen is beat up and missing a clip, you can tell by the fluid and seamless form of the cap band that it's a luxurious pen - fitted with what appears to be a later, slightly wider variation of the same nib. The all ebonite/urushi pen is 145mm capped, the same length as a Montblanc 149.

[Paul-in-SF]

  On 1/14/2022 at 9:47 PM, Honeybadgers said:

The nib on mine is 14k and reads "Hiratsuka" "FLARZ" "14k gold" "2" "pen" 

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Interesting. Hiratsuka is a town on the ocean coast southwest of Tokyo, between Kamakura and Odawara. There is a Pilot fountain pen factory there, as it happens, and there might have been others in the past. 

[Number99]

  On 1/16/2022 at 7:08 PM, seven4times said:

Thanks for your contributions @Number99. I have a question for you. Do you have any theory for why 1910-1930s Japanese pens are so rare? Did it take until the 50s to fully phase out brushes, or was there perhaps a lot of gold melted down and pens destroyed due to the war and late 30s expansion efforts? I can't seem to find any english commentary on the general rarity of old Japanese pens.

 

@Karmachanic I have photos of two Seito pens. The silver one is gigantic, the body is larger and heavier than a Namiki emperor, and, as I mentioned before, is of the highest quality. Although the first pen is beat up and missing a clip, you can tell by the fluid and seamless form of the cap band that it's a luxurious pen - fitted with what appears to be a later, slightly wider variation of the same nib. The all ebonite/urushi pen is 145mm capped, the same length as a Montblanc 149.

Expand  

Hello.

 

This thread subject shifts from "old Japanese fountain pens" to,to stop buying and selling an 

items suspected of being stolen. The person who started the thread has stopped posting. And the answer to the position of the ship, why was only one fountain pen for export pulled up without a pen tip? The question has not been answered.

 

 If nothing is done, there is a possibility of taking advantage of illegal activities, so please start new content.

 

And I recognize that everyone has the right to continue the thread as it is.

 

 I'm not interested in Japanese pens and have a few fountain pens for writing (I got them as unused items [I don't accept used ones physiologically except for some brands]) only.

 Therefore, I do not have all the knowledge of fountain pens, including the old ones in Japan.

 I can lend you my general Japanese ability.

 

 Regarding fountain pens in the old days of Japan, I think that they were not widely used in Japan until around the 1970s.

 I think the reason is that it is a "high-priced taxable luxury goods".

 Of course, it cannot be purchased by students, so it did not become familiar to or popularized with fountain pens.

And it may be said that the fountain pen was "mainly an item for export".

 

 At the ending point of the war, Japanese buildings that could be converted into factories were attacked, including elementary schools, and many of the buildings in urban areas were burned down.

 I think that the view that "most of them burned" in the example of "Tokyo" is almost correct because the Japanese building was made of wood and the napalm cluster bomb was used.

 It's no wonder that there aren't any old fountain pens left, considering that the original few were burned down on a larger scale.

That can still be seen on war damage maps and historical records.

 

About the phasing out of brushes.

 Brushes are still not obsolete. It has been passed down as a learning culture at school（But the education subject was transition from national language to art）.

 Early transition (probably from a culture of vertical writing to a culture of horizontal writing from right to left << now law, literary arts, newspapers and magazines are vertical, administrative documents, business documents are horizontal letters from left to right ,personal documents are freestyle. Now we Japanese never write horizontally from right to left >> ） I think that dip pens and pencils were probably adopted as alternatives.

 And from the 1950s~1970s to the present, mechanical pencils and ballpoint pens have been more active than fountain pens.

 I also want to use a fountain pen outside, but recently there is a lot of recycled paper and the ink is bleeding badly,

I can not

write Japanese with a fountain pen ... 

 

In terms of popularization, "a fountain pen is in the same situation as a brush".

 

 Next, regarding metal.

 It is natural to think that the lack of gold in the 1930s is due to "Black Thursday", which even junior high school students can understand.

 After all, at the terminal stage of the war, all metals were subject to "military offerings" by the former Japanese government.

 

 And it's not the story of the 1930s, but the story of the terminal stage of the war when "Children" were asked to "Provide life".

 

Thank you.

 

[Number99]

I have identified a company that manufactures and sells pens lifted from sunken ships.

 However, references in this thread are limited.

 Once a company registered in Asakusa, Tokyo, the average pen trading price is now less than 15 USD.

There were 2,500 to 2,600 fountain pen makers once in Japan.