Flex Vs Soft

[Inky.Fingers]

This topic have been a torn for many newbies..ie myself.

 

Soft nibs, the softer the nib, the better the bounce. For Asian, whom are familiar with a brush, the softness of nib gives some life to the writing. Else, we would just use a Biro.

There is no line variation with soft nibs. This is its charm.

 

Flex nib is not to demonstrate how one can crank out Copperplate or Spencerian. Calligrapher uses steel flex nib for that. For everyday user, it should be just like a regular pen with very subtle changes in the line width to make it more pleasurable to write and to be read. However, without the discipline for better penmanship, it is just a cool tool for a fool. Pride yourself with better penmanship and it makes owning the tool worthwhile.

[MercianScribe]

I'm not a pro calligrapher. I do some lettering for some design work with my wife, who is a pro designer, and some private projects, but I'm not a pro.

 

There is a multitude of different dip nibs, and a lot of variety of FP flex nibs too. I can get an extra hour or more of calligraphy practice at work writing with my FPs, that I wouldn't have normally got. It doesn't have to be full copperplate or Spencerian, and I'm not cranking anything out, but there are scores of drills you can do too, and then there's just taking care of your form, your rhythm, your flow, your pressure... Most people can't take dip pens to practice at work.

 

And then like you say, there's taking care of your regular penmanship.

 

And then, there's the joy of using a beautiful, carefully kept or restored historical writing instrument.

 

So if I'm getting what you're getting at, no, I don't see a need for judgment, and I certainly don't agree with 'cool tools for fools'.

[Inky.Fingers]

+1 I was a fool with lots of cool tool. I am guilty as charged. I am mending my flaws by doing as much drills as possible.

 

I figure for every pen that I bought (thats 500+) vintage and new, I should master at least 6 hands.

 

For as long as I strive to better my penmanship, I made excuses to buy new pen (mostly vintage now.)

 

I am still a fool that falls for new tools.

Edited May 2, 2018 by _InkyFingers

[AAAndrew]

In the earliest days of metallic dip pens, a distinction was made between flex and softness. The reference for those folks was writing with a feather quill. Natural feathers often have a certain amount of what you're calling softness, a flexing of the nib perpendicular to the line of the nib.

 

In this diagram I stole from somewhere on the web, force A will result in a flexing of the nibs, which spread out in a line perpendicular to the axis of the pen. Softness is a flexing further up the nib and its lack was often cited as a cause of hand fatigue in early pens.

 

 

 

In these early pens, which were often quite stiff and rigid, this was often achieved through means of rubber holders that flexed, or special pen holders with spring in the ends to simulate this softness. Or through extra slits, usually along the shoulder. This 1853 ad from the English pen maker Rhoads & Sons explains it fairly well as they claim to have solved this problem through a new alloy from which they made their pens.

 

 

 

In 1853, the same year Rhoads was claiming to solve this problem with his new amalgam pen, a New York stationer, inventor and pen maker, named Myer Phineas, patented a pen design intended to add spring to the nib itself by cutting out slits which could flex as pressure is applied to the nib.

 

 

 

This design ultimately resulted in a design of pen taken up by several pen companies (after the patent ran out). The most famous are the different sizes of the Esterbrook Double Spring pens. Like this 126.

 

 

 

By the end of the 19th-century, softness was no longer the rage, instead, with the advent of mono-line business penmanship (think Palmer as an example), and the popularity of carbon paper, the stiff pen became the primary design most were looking for. Pens grew stiffer, and customers now valued smoothness, "easy action" (i.e. easy to write with without too much flex or skill needed), and the ability to write the new, muscular business hands. Dip pens were beginning to compete with fountain pens which had greater smoothness and were generally stiffer than dip pens.

 

So, now we look for fountain pens with some softness to relieve hand fatigue, and making writing more enjoyable. Everything old is new again.

[Inky.Fingers]

Thank you Andrew for your magnanimous contribution of the historical aspects of flex and softness. What is old is new again, and most often what is broken can be mended.

 

Would you say that during the age of writing with a quill, a gentlemen meant something? They were disciplined (time and hard work) and hence have a greater view of life, an appreciation for life. The industrial time was sort of "only the strong thrives over the weak."

Now that the boomers are in their later age, they seem to gravitate back to the root of being a gentlemen. And the destruction already left behind, are we attempting to resurrect something old new again?

 

So many posts of new comers to FPN seeking to right their penmanship, and seeking a magic wand to fix things. Accumulation of instruments with nothing to show for.

 

Three years ago, as technically inclined, I assembled a gold dip pen nib on a MB fountain pen. Thus, showing off how large a swell I can make with such a pen. I was beaten by a older gentleman by the saying "I haven't seen one of those for a very long time." I hasten to show how the nib flexes, the swells on the paper but my writing was hideous. Afterward, I recollect how such a fool I was to wield a pen, not that pen, any pen, without the power to form the proper words nor construct the proper phrases.

 

Here I am again looking at my writing ... it is still atrocious but knowing I am mending it, makes a difference to me.

 

Yes. Palmer method, Spencerian Business hand was geared towards speed. And more importantly, these instruction are about the forming of letters, words with legibility primarily. Ornamental is secondary. It is not the instrument that works the magic. It is the hard work and discipline that shines. Having a flexible pen, making swells, shades might be a delight at first. It soon fades to mediocrity.

 

Perhaps, I am being to harsh on myself. My apologies about ranting about myself.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Before the late 1860's double sided carbon paper was used in business, one kept the original with the proof the letter was written on the back. The carbon copy was shipped.

 

There was a business script before Palmer, learned at home from a book, or at a 8-16 week Business Collage. The faster you learned the less you paid.

By 1870's HS (pay out your father's pocket for it) was no longer a sure thing to be a white collar clerk....standing at a slant desk 12 hours a day, 6 days a week...well paid too.

There were chains of Business Collages like McDonalds....all over the place.

Too bad women weren't allowed.

 

Telephone operation was the key to liberation of the woman slaves. 1876 telephone invented. 1880...70,000 of them, mostly for business. City Directories listed the business, with 'telephone' then you told the operator whom you wished to speak too.

You had to pay for the wire from the telephone pole to your office/house.

 

Men telephone operators were late for work, rude, and gossiped the business they overheard for drinks to spying business men at the saloon.

Women replaced men, because they wouldn't be caught dead in a saloon. They were on time and cheerful...making a living wage ....not having to stay at home of her parents or husband, like women store clerks who only made 50 cents a day....seamstresses made that too, but had to take work home. A young woman who came to the city looking to beat farm work...even small city....starved or .... worse.

 

Late 1860's, Train orders was 6 pages....5 carbons. The Captain of the Train...the Conductor who was paid $5.00 a day go the first copy, Eagle Eyes got the second, $4.00 his young assistant engineer, the fireman got the next...then two copies to the breakmen, who climbed on top of the train to set and release the breaks. The last and least readable copy went to the Station Agent/Manager.

 

Due to a telegrapher time mark, all stations had the proper time, and all train workers had good to better watches. Best watches for the station agent, conductor and Engineer. At every stop 'clocks' were checked by the station manager....to prevent accidents.

If a watch was off time, it was replaced on the spot, and the off time watch repaired at the train company's expense.

 

There was a lot of business...'tool's, from the 1870-80's that were still in use 100 years later.

https://www.officemuseum.com/

Edited May 2, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[strelnikoff]

This topic have been a torn for many newbies..ie myself.

 

Soft nibs, the softer the nib, the better the bounce. For Asian, whom are familiar with a brush, the softness of nib gives some life to the writing. Else, we would just use a Biro.

There is no line variation with soft nibs. This is its charm.

 

Flex nib is not to demonstrate how one can crank out Copperplate or Spencerian. Calligrapher uses steel flex nib for that. For everyday user, it should be just like a regular pen with very subtle changes in the line width to make it more pleasurable to write and to be read. However, without the discipline for better penmanship, it is just a cool tool for a fool. Pride yourself with better penmanship and it makes owning the tool worthwhile.

 

I agree with this post. 100%

 

Problem is - you will always find people advertising fountain pen nibs as "spencerian/copperplate" - while selling them to the audience. Indeed, one may pull off some nice lettering with some pens, but that pen will not be practical. And to truly go for expressive penmanship, dip pens are the tools... i.e. why risk $1,200 plus PINK nib on extremes (because someone sold you that pen with that idea) - while you can ruin - and learn - a proper technique with dip nibs, few dimes a pop.

[Inky.Fingers]

I was ignorant then I was in denial. Now I am still ignorant and I am still in denial. Pink Nib you say? Where? I want one! I am spending more time shopping instead of practicing. That's the way to true happiness....NOT! You know it is an addiction right?

[strelnikoff]

I was ignorant then I was in denial. Now I am still ignorant and I am still in denial. Pink Nib you say? Where? I want one! I am spending more time shopping instead of practicing. That's the way to true happiness....NOT! You know it is an addiction right?

 

And naturally you haven't noticed "$1,200 plus" as in >1,200 USD information, your eyes only saw "PINK nib" ))

 

Before I tell you where I saw most recent PINK nib, maybe you should read about my concern here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/335883-watermans-pink-nib-length-differences/?p=4049125

 

If you're going to spend that money, make sure you're buying unaltered and good nib in a working pen. Search eBay, search online, there's always couple of PINK nibs here and there. Personally, I don't think I'll buy one any time soon. After getting few super-flex wet noodle nibs - I found them 95% of time useless for anything except expressive writing. And that in itself - dip pens do a way better job. I'm happier with a good semi-to-medium flexible nib, vintage or modern - because I use them all the time and that little flair in writing makes me happy.

 

[AAAndrew]

Oh, I had one more solution that was tried to make a pen with soft action I thought I'd share.

 

From 1859

 

[strelnikoff]

Oh, I had one more solution that was tried to make a pen with soft action I thought I'd share.

 

From 1859

 

 

That one didn't last long... right?

 

I always thought that a nib made of carbon fiber with some ceramic or tungsten tip (maybe even iridium) could be possible to ... manufacture

[AAAndrew]

They're on my list of things to look up, but I suspect they didn't last more than a year or two. Charles Goodyear actually patented a rubber pen holder, but this company licensed his patent, as far as I can tell, and made and sold the pens. I haven't found any direct connection between him and the company.

[inkstainedruth]

They're on my list of things to look up, but I suspect they didn't last more than a year or two. Charles Goodyear actually patented a rubber pen holder, but this company licensed his patent, as far as I can tell, and made and sold the pens. I haven't found any direct connection between him and the company.

 

That's very interesting. I have a letter opener with the Goodyear logo on the handle that I picked up a couple of years ago at an estate sale (I wasn't particular interested in the logo part -- I just wanted a letter opener which worked better than the crummy one I got at Staples -- cost twice as much as I ended up paying for the vintage-ish one, and the edge got dull very quickly).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Inky.Fingers]

Thinking about it often hurts my head.

 

You will get both flex and softness with a well made gold dip pen.

 

This seem to be the previledge of the rich. As you say they were made by jewelers. Who are the main makers of gold dip pen? How closely were they able to replicate a quill or a steel pen that does not rust?

[AAAndrew]

Gold pens are not my specialty, for that you'd have to ask David Nishamura, but I do run into a number of ads for them when searching for steel pens.

 

My impressions is that there were probably a hundred small makers, mainly jewelers, in cities across the country. There were also close to a dozen big makers, with some of them, going on to make fountain pens, since they already knew how to make the hard part. I only deal with a couple of them on my site. One, was a small jeweler in Detroit in the 1850's, Piquette. The other was Josiah Hayden, who was making steel pens at his factory in far Western Massachusetts in the 1840's. He eventually sold his steel pen business to others and turned to gold-pen making. These two represent the two main types of makers at the time.

 

Gold pens were quite popular with the wealthy. They cost a lot more than steel pens, as in one gold pen = 75 gross steel pens. They lasted longer, but were more fragile. One popular inkwell for gold pens had a rubber coating on the inside, because placing your gold pen into a hard glass, metal or ceramic ink well could knock the tipping off the point.

 

I've not tried a lot of gold pens, but with my limited experience, I've found them to come in a variety of actions. Some are soft, some are flexible, some are stiffer. The Piquette pen mentioned above is the best of my limited experience, and that includes examples from John Holland and Aiken Lambert, two of the biggest and most famous makers. Generally, gold does not have the "snap" of steel, i.e. it doesn't spring back into shape as quickly or with as much force. That said, you can have "lazy" steel pens, and you can have springy gold pens, but these are the exceptions.

 

As for how closely they were able to replicate a quill, I'd say their not very similar because of the tipping. Maybe they could get the right action, but the tipping makes it a very different writing experience. The same goes for the steel pen. The big difference is that tipping. It changes the writing experience, many think for the better as it makes it smoother, but it also makes a thicker line than you can get with steel. So, different, some better, some not.

[Corona688]

Problem is - you will always find people advertising fountain pen nibs as "spencerian/copperplate" - while selling them to the audience. Indeed, one may pull off some nice lettering with some pens, but that pen will not be practical. And to truly go for expressive penmanship, dip pens are the tools... i.e. why risk $1,200 plus PINK nib on extremes (because someone sold you that pen with that idea) - while you can ruin - and learn - a proper technique with dip nibs, few dimes a pop.

I don't think that's dishonest, just a concession to the current state of the market. Dip nibs are far more popular than flex pens, those seeking a more convenient/durable replacement will probably be looking in those terms.