Can You Make A Feeder Out Of Metal?

[mitto]

I googled 'metal feeder' and found the answer:

 

[Pen Engineer]

All the links in the article itself have bitrotted, but now I see that the ones on the right still work.

 

It doesn't explain your objection though. Why would an accordion trap water when a series of vanes does not? you might be taking accordion too literally. I don't mean an expanding bag, just something folded over many times.

I love the way you think. may I add: Sheet metal! Pipes, rolled as a spiral and make the nib and feed out of one piece! The pipes or spiral could be utilised as overflow cavities. stainless steel sheeting is cheap as chips. The wizards of manufacturing technology have a lot in stock.

 

Fibre pens use similar technologies. I always wanted to make a feed made from drawn plastic fibres, a bundle of fibre pen tips, simply speaking... anyone wanting to join this project?

[Anderglan]

I love the way you think. may I add: Sheet metal! Pipes, rolled as a spiral and make the nib and feed out of one piece! The pipes or spiral could be utilised as overflow cavities. stainless steel sheeting is cheap as chips. The wizards of manufacturing technology have a lot in stock.

 

Fibre pens use similar technologies. I always wanted to make a feed made from drawn plastic fibres, a bundle of fibre pen tips, simply speaking... anyone wanting to join this project?

Just a couple of day ago, I've dismantled the innards of two rollerball refills; I've pulled the fibre-stuff out, and replaced it with... tada!.. half a sheet of dried-up baby wipe that I put in ink --- it's certainly not perfect, but it works, after a fashion

Edited March 8, 2020 by Anderglan

[como]

Apparently Armando Simoni Club made a pen with Omas celluloid called Il Gladiatore, which used an "anodized aluminium ink feeder". I don't see the reason other than the exotic look. It seems to write very wet. I prefer ebonite, both for the aesthetics and the better ink flow, though well designed modern plastic feeds seem to work quite well.

[Addertooth]

If you are dead set to try metal then consider Titanium. It is generally less reactive and wicks better than 304 stainless. If you glass-bead blast the surface where it contacts the nib, you should be able to create the amount of "wetting/wicking" you wish (calculating the channel may be tough). Keep in mind, some companies make their nibs out of titanium, so it has proven it's chops on tolerating inks. It is lighter than most other metals, and is on par with Aluminum in terms of weight, but comparable with steel for strength.

 

Why I wouldn't use Titanium: Harder to machine than commercial Hard Rubber which is available out of India in all kinds of designer colors. It is harder to machine than stainless/brass/copper/bronze, as it is very hard (Rockwell C-scale 54 to 56 in the common compositions).

 

But in the end... if I had to make a feed from scratch, I would get some hard rubber from India and call it good. Most likely, I would copy the Waterman "spoon" design and call it good.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Addertooth

[Pen Engineer]

Very good! indeed! New materials need a new approach to design.

 

Has anyone taken an old capacitor appart? It is made of a thin metal (conductive) foil with gell in between. I could imagine to roll up such foil (acid edged titanium, aluminium, stainless) with varying gaps. A small one (or several in a bundle) in the middle as the direct canal from the reservoir to the nib. Near the nib these centre have an opening to the spiralled sheet with a wider gap to serve as overflow chambers. As the outer shell one could roll the sheet densely, to serve as the section.

 

The mind is boggling! Instead of rolling it cylindrical, roll it conical, with a point. there's your nib!

 

In glass component manufacture, they make cylindrical pipes with intricate inner shapes to form a bundle of interconnected capillaries, like the monofibre pens in plastic. Then they are heated (in a controlled fashion) and pulled which makes them conical... with reducing capillary gaps, increasing capillary forces. They are used to put stuff in micro (monocell) organisms. The whole thing - a bit bigger, viola! There is your feed and nib. Bob's your uncle (and Mary your aunt!)!

 

Enough thinking for one day.

[doudouluo]

hi, i made a brass feed for my giant vintage pen just now.im happy  it works well so far.

this is video.

世界唯一纯金属笔舌，好使！！！！_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

[doudouluo]

[dipper]

That is some excellent machining work @doudouluo.

 

The video below is a sneak preview of my design for a metal feed and nib combined into one part. The prototype shown is a dip pen. The next version of this nib/feed oddity might be a fountain pen?

 

[Pen Engineer]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:07 AM, Corona688 said:

It doesn't explain your objection though. Why would an accordion trap water when a series of vanes does not? you might be taking accordion too literally. I don't mean an expanding bag, just something folded over many times.

Yes, it would.  Great idea!

[Pen Engineer]

If one can machine (NC machine) an ebonite feed then, one can machine it out of (almost) any other material for the same cost.  Since there are only low mechanical strength demands on a feed, the variation of the type can be one suitable for easy machining.  After a bit of fiddling, you can make one out of bar stock under less than a minute.

 

Metals are much more hydrophilic than any plastic.  A chemical edging in an ultrasonic bath should improve it even more...  Any questions, ask.

[Pen Engineer]

3 hours ago, dipper said:

The video below is a sneak preview of my design for a metal feed and nib combined into one part.

My sincerest  admiration and congratulation. 

 

Ich nehme meinen Hut ab!  I take off my hat!

[doudouluo]

6 hours ago, dipper said:

That is some excellent machining work @doudouluo.

 

The video below is a sneak preview of my design for a metal feed and nib combined into one part. The prototype shown is a dip pen. The next version of this nib/feed oddity might be a fountain pen?

 

thank you. you did a great design.

[txomsy]

Have you tested its resistance to corrosion?

[dipper]

8 hours ago, txomsy said:

.... resistance to corrosion?

.... important!

 

The metal nib/feed combined unit (shown above) is Phosphor Bronze PB102, an alloy used in marine, aircraft, and chemical applications. No corrosion ... so far.

 

I have been designing, making and evolving related designs for a couple of years, and observing corrosion resistance is part of that process.

 

Selecting for corrosion resistance starts with metal alloy information on the wwweb. Usually tabulated as something vague like " excellent / good / moderate / poor ". Often included are lists of known uses and known problems - that can be more helpful. I have not found any such lists saying "excellent for fountain pen nibs".

 

In the copper based alloys (brasses and bronzes) many include lead in the alloy mix, to improve machinability. I have excluded all those alloys for health reasons. PB102 is a lead-free alloy.

 

Electrolytic corrosion (aka Galvanic corrosion) is something to bear in mind. A fountain pen with a metal nib made of one alloy, in contact with a metal feed made of a different alloy, constantly wetted by ink (electrolyte) .... may suffer from that problem, even if each metal has "good" corrosion resistance when alone. My pens are each single metal only, so galvanic corrosion is not an issue.

Except for one. A spring-steel dip pen, with bamboo feed/reservoir, and a stainless steel screw touching the nib.

The nib to feed gap is adjustable by a pivoting rocking motion, driven by the screw, restrained by a tight wrap of Kevlar cord. Pen has been in occasional use since May 2021, test cleaning and storage as described below, with no galvanic corrosion yet seen.

 

My corrosion resistance test is that pens are used in random rotation with fountain pen inks, or pigment/India inks, rinsed in plain water, drained onto a paper towel, and left to air dry. Then stored dry in jars and checked occasionally over the following months.

No oil protection used. (I have not used any iron-gall inks. Need to buy a known nasty one sometime to up the test severity.)

 

Results have been illuminating....

 

1 ) Many steels hate being wrapped in gummed (lick and stick) brown paper tape. Corrosion occurs in weeks. So I now label every pen with sawn grooves in binary code. For instance the six-inch-nail pen number P22 is grooved on its shaft as " .I.II. " representing binary 010110 = decimal 22.

 

2 ) Mild steel pens can remain 95% corrosion free for two years if dried after use and stored out of their wood or bamboo handles. Light red rust stains showing at shank ends, ink tip ends still OK! That is ideal for making design protoypes, proof of concept tests, etc, where ease of working the materials trumps long term durability.

 

3 ) Mild steel galvanised nail pens remain 100% corrosion free if some of the zinc galvanizing is left in place at the back end of the piece. (Galvanic protection of the exposed bare steel surfaces by contact with zinc nearby.) Here is a six-inch-galvanised nail pen, tip worked as fins and feed slot, zinc coating still visible just behind the inked region. Over a year old now, and showing some india-ink deposits, but corrosion free.

 

4 ) Stainless Steel alloy 316 is 100% proof against everything I have thrown at it. A polished mirror finish in 2020 is still a polished mirror finish in 2022, despite cleaning only as described. Cheap, very tough and hard wearing, readily available..... but 316 is a swine to work! It blunts saws, clogs files, and destroys abrasive papers. 316 Stainless does behave well if cold forged, hammer and anvil blacksmith style, with heat annealing to undo work-hardening if needed. Are modern factory-made steel nibs cut and cold forged from 316 Stainless sheet? It would be logical choice.

 

5 ) Household brass-screws, general brass or copper alloy salvaged scrap, and PB102, all develop a colour-change patina within days, but then remain unchanged. I have not repolished any of those pen prototypes following initial polish when made. So, visually inferior to gold nibs but functionally equivalent (?!) and durability good so far. Long term report will be available in 60 years. (Or check brass decorative parts of existing vintage pens?)

 

 

[doudouluo]

5 hours ago, dipper said:

.... important!

 

The metal nib/feed combined unit (shown above) is Phosphor Bronze PB102, an alloy used in marine, aircraft, and chemical applications. No corrosion ... so far.

 

I have been designing, making and evolving related designs for a couple of years, and observing corrosion resistance is part of that process.

 

Selecting for corrosion resistance starts with metal alloy information on the wwweb. Usually tabulated as something vague like " excellent / good / moderate / poor ". Often included are lists of known uses and known problems - that can be more helpful. I have not found any such lists saying "excellent for fountain pen nibs".

 

In the copper based alloys (brasses and bronzes) many include lead in the alloy mix, to improve machinability. I have excluded all those alloys for health reasons. PB102 is a lead-free alloy.

 

Electrolytic corrosion (aka Galvanic corrosion) is something to bear in mind. A fountain pen with a metal nib made of one alloy, in contact with a metal feed made of a different alloy, constantly wetted by ink (electrolyte) .... may suffer from that problem, even if each metal has "good" corrosion resistance when alone. My pens are each single metal only, so galvanic corrosion is not an issue.

Except for one. A spring-steel dip pen, with bamboo feed/reservoir, and a stainless steel screw touching the nib.

The nib to feed gap is adjustable by a pivoting rocking motion, driven by the screw, restrained by a tight wrap of Kevlar cord. Pen has been in occasional use since May 2021, test cleaning and storage as described below, with no galvanic corrosion yet seen.

 

My corrosion resistance test is that pens are used in random rotation with fountain pen inks, or pigment/India inks, rinsed in plain water, drained onto a paper towel, and left to air dry. Then stored dry in jars and checked occasionally over the following months.

No oil protection used. (I have not used any iron-gall inks. Need to buy a known nasty one sometime to up the test severity.)

 

Results have been illuminating....

 

1 ) Many steels hate being wrapped in gummed (lick and stick) brown paper tape. Corrosion occurs in weeks. So I now label every pen with sawn grooves in binary code. For instance the six-inch-nail pen number P22 is grooved on its shaft as " .I.II. " representing binary 010110 = decimal 22.

 

2 ) Mild steel pens can remain 95% corrosion free for two years if dried after use and stored out of their wood or bamboo handles. Light red rust stains showing at shank ends, ink tip ends still OK! That is ideal for making design protoypes, proof of concept tests, etc, where ease of working the materials trumps long term durability.

 

3 ) Mild steel galvanised nail pens remain 100% corrosion free if some of the zinc galvanizing is left in place at the back end of the piece. (Galvanic protection of the exposed bare steel surfaces by contact with zinc nearby.) Here is a six-inch-galvanised nail pen, tip worked as fins and feed slot, zinc coating still visible just behind the inked region. Over a year old now, and showing some india-ink deposits, but corrosion free.

 

4 ) Stainless Steel alloy 316 is 100% proof against everything I have thrown at it. A polished mirror finish in 2020 is still a polished mirror finish in 2022, despite cleaning only as described. Cheap, very tough and hard wearing, readily available..... but 316 is a swine to work! It blunts saws, clogs files, and destroys abrasive papers. 316 Stainless does behave well if cold forged, hammer and anvil blacksmith style, with heat annealing to undo work-hardening if needed. Are modern factory-made steel nibs cut and cold forged from 316 Stainless sheet? It would be logical choice.

 

5 ) Household brass-screws, general brass or copper alloy salvaged scrap, and PB102, all develop a colour-change patina within days, but then remain unchanged. I have not repolished any of those pen prototypes following initial polish when made. So, visually inferior to gold nibs but functionally equivalent (?!) and durability good so far. Long term report will be available in 60 years. (Or check brass decorative parts of existing vintage pens?)

 

 

👍

The purpose of making brass feed is to test the Electrolytic corrosion. Theoretically, different metals will form galvanic cells, but I don't see relevant data on the degree of corrosion. So I decided to try it myself. I will follow this post and report the corrosion.

[txomsy]

Most interesting. Thanks for the report. From what you say, one might even make the whole pen of a resistant metal alloy and then it would even be eyedropper-able, though higher heat conductivity might pose a problem, I think there are now metal or metal-looking materials with bad head conductivity. One might even consider doing a two+ layer design with compatible alloys.

 

On a side note, maybe we are looking at the problem from the wrong side. If the goal is to have a new pen fully made of metal, then we can just do away with existing designs.

 

One might think of a feeding system designed like spiral pipes, for instance, and nibs might be redesigned to adapt to the new feed design, with a fixing system that does not rely on friction (say a bayonet), and even different ink formulations adapted to the new materials. Actually one might even do away with nibs: what we need is an ink delivery system that can be machined in different shapes (EF, F, etc, italic, music, etc...) and properties (flex, nail, semi...) where preserving the looks of classical FP nibs might be a nostalgic bonus.

 

In other words, something like what BIC design must have been in its time (a total rethink of writing instruments), but with a different material (metal instead of plastic), mechanical properties, writing points and goals.

[doudouluo]

New version of metal feed.

Brass improved version

Titanium alloy  version :diameter 8.6 mm , 9 mm,  10.6 mm 

Self made pen equipped with titanium alloy feed,  diameterf 9mm

so far, these tongues can work, and there is no problem with the corrosion resistance of titanium alloy through visual inspection.

 

 

 

[Detman101]

49 minutes ago, doudouluo said:

New version of metal feed.

Brass improved version

Titanium alloy  version :diameter 8.6 mm , 9 mm,  10.6 mm 

Self made pen equipped with titanium alloy feed,  diameterf 9mm

so far, these tongues can work, and there is no problem with the corrosion resistance of titanium alloy through visual inspection.

 

 

 

Amazing!
After experiencing issues with Ebonite Feed stability in the high heat of the middle east, I switched back to plastic feeds.
I feel a metal feed would be the ultimate solution to long-term/permanent stability.

Great work sir! Looking forward to seeing your progress and eventually buying one of your creations.
 

[doudouluo]

1 hour ago, Detman101 said:

Amazing!
After experiencing issues with Ebonite Feed stability in the high heat of the middle east, I switched back to plastic feeds.
I feel a metal feed would be the ultimate solution to long-term/permanent stability.

Great work sir! Looking forward to seeing your progress and eventually buying one of your creations.
 

Thank you very much for your encouragement.

I agree with you that the metal feed maybe the ultimate solution.I just started, and I still have a lot to learn. There are also many technical problems to solved & verifide, and I will try my best to solve all the problem and make a real one .

I will continue to update the  progress, and I will post here, or open a new post.

Thanks again & best wishes.