Can You Make A Feeder Out Of Metal?

[MF_Pencil]

I am interested in finding out what exotic feeder materials are out there. I have seen the plastic and ebony versions, but I wonder if a feeder could be made of different materials and even metal?

 

Do the manufacturing process and cost mean that metal is not a good choice for a feeder? Does the surface finish of metal not work well for a feeder?

 

I would love to know anyone's ideas and thoughts about feeder materials.

 

Thanks!

[fabri00]

Metal is more difficult to be machined, and probably will react with the ink.

The metals used for nib are mostly gold and steel. Not that much more than that.

A feeder in gold is too expansive and heavy. In steel heavy and more difficult to be machined.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Cost too much. Isn't worth it because it won't buffer the ink well....buffer...hold the ink. Maintain an even flow of ink.

 

Ebonite a rubber was used on the slick fast flowing feeds back when there were many superflex nibs so the feed could feed the ink to a greedy nib. (Pre 1900-1940's) How the feed was fed, was important. Waterman invented a feed that worked....in an Eye Dropper, which has a problem even now of burping.

Then in the 'teens' I think, Parker came up with the Lucky S feed start...hidden in the pen, that fed the rest of the feed in a better way. Still slick feeds on the bottoms.

Go to Richard Binder's com, for a three full day education. He might well have a picture of the Lucky S, top, bottom and sides.

That was in a time when the ink channels on the top and the feeding mechanism controlled ink flow.

 

Ebonite became machine sawn; rills/combs were sliced into the hard rubber, that made it rough and held ink so very well. At first there were just combs on the side of the feed, that slowed ink flow better, then more of them, and then the bottom of the feed was machined. Equaling many more combs/rills and slowing the flow of the ink that harder less flexible nibs could be used, in they demanded less ink.

 

Depending on how wet or dry the ink was made by the manufacture the feed was made to match....in the '30's Pelikan had a longitudinal three comb feed. In the '50-65 era a four comb feed. Those were faster nibs than modern.

Later Pelikan also went over to pressed plastic.

 

@ 1940 Pressed plastic came in....and they had to put many more combs/rills on them to hold the ink back....buffering it. To those in FPN 'the know', ebonite is more favored.

But pressed plastic was ever so much cheaper to make than sawing at a hard rubber. So Ebonite outside of India where they have cheap labor, dropped out of being used on the whole.

The P-51 had a huge collector full of combs hidden inside the pen, in they were after a superfast drying ink......that didn't work.

But it was pressed plastic and there for cheap.....as soon as possible many went to cheap.

Same with US pen bodies....dull boring, compared to the '30's which had been more expensive.

 

Some time in the late '70's-80's??? Lamy; such as the late '80's Safari has a slick bottomed feed, that works close to Ebonite, because of acid treatment to roughen up the plastic, until it equaled Ebonite.

The engineer who did the work, has a very detailed blog with that in it, that he shared with us here.

Someone should if they are kind, link you to it. I learned more than a world's worth from reading his blog......it is full of knowledge and very enlightening.

 

There is no advantage to a metal feed, or it would have been done before....and even if cast, and roughened by the casting mold as one might wish.

It was never tried....to my limited knowledge. ...not even porous pot metal.

 

They have had glass nibs (no feed), that were not too expensive or there wouldn't have been a lot of them. They never really went over big, even though a number of medium or even big companies made them.

Pre-ball point, one had to hole the glass nibbed pen up like a pencil and there was no give to the nib....so wasn't enjoyable to write with. I was lucky to sell mine shortly after getting it.

I found it slow to write with.

[sirgilbert357]

I would think with modern CNC machines, it would be easier to cut ebonite feeds than ever before in the past. But most companies are already heavily invested in resin based feed materials...if it aint broke, dont fix it seems to capture their mentality currently.

 

I seem to recall seeing an Aurora with an ebonite feed recently though. Am I mistaken that there are a few pen makers out there still using them every now and then? Dont a couple of the Noodlers pens have an ebonite feed? Those are downright cheap too. I would think the industry has the ability to efficiently make pens with ebonite feeds these days, they just lack the will to do so.

[Ron Z]

There are multiple problems associated with metal and inks, corrosion being one of them. A lot goes into the design of a feed. Note that it was the feed that was the revolutionary break through for Waterman and Parker,

 

There is a series of interesting articles on the design of feeds written by a pen engineer starting here. They're worth reading.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The Ahab + feed, is Indian made, where labor is cheaper than machines.

Saw a clip, where they were making nibs on some sort of 1920's looking machines, one nib at a time....one nib slice by hand at a time.

 

 

CNC machinery is expensive and expensive to use in 'labor time'.......when one can press 20-30 plastic nibs out at least, as it takes to cut one nib.

 

And who's to know Ebonite's 'better' out side a hand full of pen nuts.

They ignored fountain pen users right after WW2, when plastic nibs in the States became the norm.

Pressed plastic pen bodies became ugly**.....when the colorful '30's pens were no longer made, in they cost way too much, when idiots chased P-51 and Touchdowns and Snorkels in some one said they were higher status.

**Esterbrook remained 'colorful'.

 

 

That link Ron was so nice to show......also has that if properly chemically treated to make it rough a plastic feed, can match Ebonite's ink holding capability. ....that took Lamy until the '80-90's? to do

The Engineer spent a long time getting that trick right.

So, I became more satisfied with the Lamy pens I have.

Either the feed was made to fit the ink, or the ink was reformulated to match the new rougher feed.

 

It might well be other German companies followed or were before Lamy with acid treated plastic feeds....but Lamy was able to save molding costs of getting all those thin combs pressed into the plastic, like MB or Pelikan.

Lamy is the only nib..I know that is so '20's slick on the bottom.

[ParkerDuofold]

Hi all,

 

IIRC, the original breather tube on the P51 was sterling silver; then they switched to another metal due to cost... then quickly changed to plastic because of corrosion problems.

 

 

- Anthony

[Mech-for-i]

technically and in term of engineering, yes on can made a feed out o a piece or pieces of metal but you could does no mean you should. And any sane engineering and engineer tasked to do a feed will not see metal as a functional viable and reasonable choice. There are simply too many hurdle to overcome, too many disadvantage to had when clearly there are better , and cheaper, easier to work with material out there that's better for the job, the one technology that I think can be employed in the near future is 3D printing. It might even be possible to print a single piece integral section / feed though I would wager it would be a hell to come time cleaning.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Mech-for-i

[Morphling27]

I would think with modern CNC machines, it would be easier to cut ebonite feeds than ever before in the past. But most companies are already heavily invested in resin based feed materials...if it aint broke, dont fix it seems to capture their mentality currently.

 

I seem to recall seeing an Aurora with an ebonite feed recently though. Am I mistaken that there are a few pen makers out there still using them every now and then? Dont a couple of the Noodlers pens have an ebonite feed? Those are downright cheap too. I would think the industry has the ability to efficiently make pens with ebonite feeds these days, they just lack the will to do so.

I think all the main Noodler's models use an ebonite feed. They also have ebonite for the entire pen in the Konrad and Neponset models. There may be other special one offs that do as well.

 

Aurora has had pens with an ebonite feed and some other brands have as well. Sometimes it's offered as a premium or special thing (despite being insanely cheap as evidenced by Noodler's).

 

Also, another reason feeds are made from more pliable materials is many pens you can remove the feed. Metal on plastic or ebonite would wear it, and even metal on metal would cause wear.

[Corona688]

I bet it can be done but it wouldn't be the same shape as a traditional feed. It'd be folded like an accordion, or perhaps bent/stacked like car manifold lattice.

[sirgilbert357]

I bet it can be done but it wouldn't be the same shape as a traditional feed. It'd be folded like an accordion, or perhaps bent/stacked like car manifold lattice.

Running with that idea, why not just make it an internal one kind of like a modern P51. It could be made out of titanium (hey they make nibs out of that material, so I would assume it would last). You could make it a hooded nib or just make the nib & feed a sort of inlaid set up where there are no fins and the feed is enclosed. I dont know, nothing new here, and no real reason to make them out of metal over resin based materials, but thats all I could come up with.

Edited April 3, 2018 by sirgilbert357

[sirgilbert357]

And if ink doesnt eat Teflon, you could have the part of the feed that faces the nib coated in Teflon to make it feed really well. Again, overkill and it would take crazy amounts of R&D to make it work, but it could be done I bet.

 

I think it would be kind of cool to have a pen made entirely out of metals, no plastic at all.

Edited April 3, 2018 by sirgilbert357

[Ron Z]

Has anyone bothered to read the articles in the link, or even follow the link to articles about feed design?

 

Teflon repels water, and would prevent the ink from flowing. An accordion shape would trap the water. You couldn't possibly set a metal feed properly against the nib because it takes a heck of a lot of heat to soften metal, and you'd melt the section and maybe the nib, in the process . ...and 3D printed material is porous.

 

There are reasons why hard rubber was universally used to make feeds in the early days beyond availability and was used for the next 70 years or more, and why it is often used today, and why they have to treat or coat some plastics used for feeds. There's an awful lot of physics that goes into the design of a feed.

[ParkerDuofold]

Hi SG,

 

I don't think you'd want to go with Teflon... because it's a non-stick surface; you'd never be able to get the capillary action you need for an effective feed material.

 

Be well.

 

 

- Anthony

[ParkerDuofold]

Just to follow-up...

 

...I see Ron beat me to the punch, but yeah... ebonite makes for the best feed material, IMHO,... altough plastic is usually used because it's cheaper and easy to mold.

 

 

- A.C.

[FarmBoy]

I googled 'metal feeder' and found the answer:

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

"""Aurora has had pens with an ebonite feed and some other brands have as well. Sometimes it's offered as a premium or special thing (despite being insanely cheap as evidenced by Noodler's).""

It is insanely cheap in India, where a 'living' wage won't buy a hamburger a day. Even if they don't eat hamburgers because cows are holy.

 

Warehouse costs E/$ 100 a day for a meter or yard cube of space. You do have to store old tools, and for how many years before you use them again.....or make new tools.

You do have to pay skilled tool makers to keep your tools sharp. You have to pay a skilled man to operate gramp's old machine.

They went to pressed plastic to save costs..........so if Aurora has to dig out the old tools, and drag Gramp in from his bocci game to teach his grandson how to do the work. There is cost that needs to be covered. Italy is not India.

Perhaps they should just outsource to India.

But made in Italy except for the feed won't sell in Italy.

[Maurizio]

It’s sad that there are almost no pens made anymore with ebonite feeds (leaving the Noodler’s aside as a special case) and a shame the pens which do have them are outrageously overpriced like Aurora. And I think the Namiki Emperor has one along with its stratospheric price.

 

How diificult or expensive would it be for a mainstream pen company to procure batches of relatively inexpensive ebonite feeds from India for their modern German, Japanese American or other nib units?

[Corona688]

Has anyone bothered to read the articles in the link, or even follow the link to articles about feed design?

All the links in the article itself have bitrotted, but now I see that the ones on the right still work.

 

It doesn't explain your objection though. Why would an accordion trap water when a series of vanes does not? you might be taking accordion too literally. I don't mean an expanding bag, just something folded over many times.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Corona688

[benbot517]

The company Flexible Nib Factory is producing ebonite feeds for various different pens, from a Jowo number 6 nib and feed setup to Pilot's custom 743 with FA nib. Their feeds are also being used on Wancher's Dream Pen.