What Am I Missing About Expensive Pens?

[Lloyd]

You realize that >99% of the world views your pens and inks as expensive for what they are - something to write on paper with, right?

[TSherbs]

 

 

Sit at your desk, Sir. And close your eyes. No peeking. I will now place between your fingers an expensive luxurious Montblanc *pen with a nib that has been expertly tailored to your exact requirements based on your recent consultation with Montblanc's expert nibmeisters of the highest class.

And if you imagine hard enough it will be the most smoothest experience in a pen that you will have as you feel that luxury oozing through your fingers. That smooth experience could only have come from Montblanc because of the money that you paid, so they say. Just remember that if it's expensive, then it must surely be good. All you have to do is imagine.

 

Now open your eyes, and notice how suddenly your high opinion of the pen crashes straight through the concrete floor.

 

 

 

 

 

*it's a Jinhao 5000 costing a couple of dollars

I would love some blind use tests. Maybe somehow putting a range of nibs into similar holders and writing with them. Disguising the nibs too, obviously. Take branding and status out of it to compare performance value. But as I said, I am a plebian dedicated to the charts of Consumer Reports comparisons. Edited March 16, 2018 by TSherbs

[TSherbs]

You realize that >99% of the world views your pens and inks as expensive for what they are - something to write on paper with, right?

Not just any paper, either.

[Drawing61]

99% of the world views art and craftsmanship as expensive and non-essential.

[zaddick]

 

 

Sit at your desk, Sir. And close your eyes. No peeking. I will now place between your fingers an expensive luxurious Montblanc *pen with a nib that has been expertly tailored to your exact requirements based on your recent consultation with Montblanc's expert nibmeisters of the highest class.

And if you imagine hard enough it will be the most smoothest experience in a pen that you will have as you feel that luxury oozing through your fingers. That smooth experience could only have come from Montblanc because of the money that you paid, so they say. Just remember that if it's expensive, then it must surely be good. All you have to do is imagine.

 

Now open your eyes, and notice how suddenly your high opinion of the pen crashes straight through the concrete floor.

 

 

 

 

 

*it's a Jinhao 5000 costing a couple of dollars

You make a lot of assumptions about me in your hypothetical that are off the mark. You don't know what I value in a nib and it is not always the same traits. I will say I darn sure can tell you the odds of an off the shelf pen costing a few dollars having a nib that I think is the ultate luxury approaches negative infinity.

 

Now, can you find a low cost steel nib, spend maybe $100 to have a nibsmith sit down with me for an hour and grind and reshape that cheap nib into something that writes the same as the bespoke nib I would order from MB? Maybe, but we still have to solve the feed issue. So we solve that for additional $. Put the nib and feed into an existing pen body I like so that is not affecting the comparison. Ok, now I close my eyes and you hand me the pen and I'd be happy. But you now no longer have a few dollar pen. And to me the value of that pen would exceed the cost because it was made for my needs. I could hand you rhe pen and you might think the value has now decreased below the original few dollar purchase price due to the modifications.

 

A person can find value > cost any any price point, even if you do not. I would actually hope they do as much as possible! I don't think ever in my time here have I made the claim more cost = more value.

 

And a final point, I think your hypothetical test would blow some folks away, and maybe open minds for people with limited experience.

[zaddick]

Sorry for the double post.

Edited March 16, 2018 by zaddick

[Bluey]

I would love some blind use tests. Maybe somehow putting a range of nibs into similar holders and writing with them. Disguising the nibs too, obviously. Take branding and status out of it to compare performance value. But as I said, I am a plebian dedicated to the charts of Consumer Reports comparisons.

So would I.

I would hazard a guess that 99% of the reasons for why 99% of the fountain pen buying public in the Western world buy by brand perception rather than being genuinely able to know quality, whatever that is.

That brand perception reinforces the person that they are and their values.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bluey

[Lloyd]

99% of the world views art and craftsmanship as expensive and non-essential.

It depends on the cost relative to their necessities. Everyone values a well made shelter and well made clothes. There's tribal art made and traded by moneyless people.

[inkstainedruth]

 

 

What makes you not want to envision scenes in Hardy's books? Is it related to some of the more controversial scenes in Tess, or Jude the Obscure? That's quite an angry emoji!

 

Haven't read those (although I saw the movie version of Tess with Nastassja Kinski, and found it somewhat less than absorbing...). Had to read The Return of the Native for my AP English class in high school and that was quite enough. I never got a feel for how the characters looked or dressed. I didn't get a feeling for the time frame of the story, i.e., was it set in contemporary (for the author) times, or earlier? And truthfully, except for a couple of really minor characters like the Reddleman, none of them were interesting enough for me to care what happened to them. And nothing in the plot made me *want* to care.... It wasn't that I didn't *want* to envision them -- it was that I *couldn't*, and it made for a very frustrating experience.

It was even worse than having to read Anna Karenina -- at least the first half of the book I felt a *little* sorry for her husband, but eventually decided he was such a schlub that I didn't care any more.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[JakobS]

Haven't read those (although I saw the movie version of Tess with Nastassja Kinski, and found it somewhat less than absorbing...). Had to read The Return of the Native for my AP English class in high school and that was quite enough. I never got a feel for how the characters looked or dressed. I didn't get a feeling for the time frame of the story, i.e., was it set in contemporary (for the author) times, or earlier? And truthfully, except for a couple of really minor characters like the Reddleman, none of them were interesting enough for me to care what happened to them. And nothing in the plot made me *want* to care.... It wasn't that I didn't *want* to envision them -- it was that I *couldn't*, and it made for a very frustrating experience.

It was even worse than having to read Anna Karenina -- at least the first half of the book I felt a *little* sorry for her husband, but eventually decided he was such a schlub that I didn't care any more.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Ah, I can understand coming away from the Return of the Native with those feelings, it was certainly a story focused on three main characters, which funny enough many of his books are, but usually not to the exclusion that is seen in the Native. I also discovered Hardy in my AP English class in high school. I have always been interested in Victorian writers, and something connected with him, I ended up reading all 14 of his novels, and much of his poetry...

[max dog]

With high end pens, its the intangibles that justify it and it is totally personal if its worth the extra bucks. I love the way my Montblanc 146 OB writes and to me is worth every penny. Obviously its not for everyone. That is the way the appreciation of fountain pens work at all price points.

[Tseg]

At least we are not trying to equate cost of materials to cost of pen that some try to do on watch forums. Excluding a gold nib (which still is likely only a few dollars in gold, if that), 99% of pens likely have <$1 in raw materials cost.

 

Once one pays more than the cost of a free hotel pen the worth is in the eye of the beholder. My wife thinks all fountain pens (and non-quartz watches) are a waste on money... except for a Rolex with diamonds, curiously enough.

[ReadyFireAim]

I will say I darn sure can tell you the odds of an off the shelf pen costing a few dollars having a nib that I think is the ultate luxury approaches negative infinity.

A disposable FP is about 100 times smoother than the dull X-acto-nib I use daily.

 

One of your greased lightening nibs would probably be uncontrollable for me.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[Uncial]

So would I.

I would hazard a guess that 99% of the reasons for why 99% of the fountain pen buying public in the Western world buy by brand perception rather than being genuinely able to know quality, whatever that is.

That brand perception reinforces the person that they are and their values.

 

This is true of fountain pen manufacturers themselves too. There's a reason why Sailor, Platinum and Pilot model themselves on Montblanc. It's about buying into perceptions of kudos and notions about heritage. From the buyer point of view too there can be a blindness to what something actually is - often regardless of cost, yet often driven by a sense of 'rareness' or ideas that it might be hard to get. A number of Sailor nibs for instance are designed specifically for Japanese needs in terms of writing, but completely useless if your not Japanese and don't use their form of writing; yet many will still insist that these are wonderful nibs but are entirely unsuitable for a western writing style. Blind tests on these would indeed be fascinating. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy the Sailor's I own even when the nibs lower than 21K can be a little spotty on quality (and don't get me started about their medium nibs - just horrible - that stupid cut makes the nib a nightmare to use).

[Bluey]

 

This is true of fountain pen manufacturers themselves too. There's a reason why Sailor, Platinum and Pilot model themselves on Montblanc. It's about buying into perceptions of kudos and notions about heritage. From the buyer point of view too there can be a blindness to what something actually is - often regardless of cost, yet often driven by a sense of 'rareness' or ideas that it might be hard to get. A number of Sailor nibs for instance are designed specifically for Japanese needs in terms of writing, but completely useless if your not Japanese and don't use their form of writing; yet many will still insist that these are wonderful nibs but are entirely unsuitable for a western writing style. Blind tests on these would indeed be fascinating. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy the Sailor's I own even when the nibs lower than 21K can be a little spotty on quality (and don't get me started about their medium nibs - just horrible - that stupid cut makes the nib a nightmare to use).

The flaw there is that they're not aiming for the same market. In fact they're poles apart.

This belief or stereotypes that Japanese pens are modelling themselves on Montblanc is almost certainly derived solely by inane title tattle on fountain pen forums. If it were true, it would not be of any benefit to any of the Japanese brands whatsoever. It would be akin to Ferrari trying to model themselves on some unknown tuk tuk brand.

[Uncial]

The flaw there is that they're not aiming for the same market. In fact they're poles apart.

This belief or stereotypes that Japanese pens are modelling themselves on Montblanc is almost certainly derived solely by inane title tattle on fountain pen forums. If it were true, it would not be of any benefit to any of the Japanese brands whatsoever. It would be akin to Ferrari trying to model themselves on some unknown tuk tuk brand.

 

Well that's a question you would have to put to the pen manufacturers themselves.

The other half of my post has disappeared into the ether somewhere... not once, but twice...this stupid site keeps reloading itself for some reason.

 

In regards to the OP's central question I find quite a lot of pens overpriced. I find a lot of 'cheapies' to be rubbish and a complete waste of money (although there are a few good ones out there, but in reality not many in the longer term) even though they may openly cost a euro. That includes an awful lot of pens. I went through a phase of picking up cheapies, buying Jinhao's, Baoer's, Kag's, Wing Sung's, etc, etc, and out of quite a number of pens I think I have kept about three. The rest were just junk. Brittle feeds, poor finishes, bad nibs, poor flow, broken caps - the list could go on. I look back on that period and wish I hadn't bothered at all and just gone with something that I knew was better quality and would last longer. I threw my money away and so in that sense all of those pens were expensive and overpriced.

 

The so-called medium range pens can be stupidly overpriced too. Sailor's standard line up of nibs are a bit dull to me. Well tuned generally, but nothing exciting. Some of their finishes are frankly sub standard and the plastic they use for the standard line up is awful - feels and looks cheap and unpleasant. I still like them overall as reliable and comfortable pens, but are they worth it? At the price that many western retailers sell them at, I think not. If you want something a bit special or different from Sailor you can get it, but you don't half pay for it.

 

Nakaya for me is overpriced and not worth it. I don't get on with their nibs and while I appreciate the artistry of their finishes, there are others that I think do it equally as well at a fraction of the cost and with far superior nibs without having the mystique of waiting for a year for it to arrive.

 

Pelikan M800's, although I love them and own many, are essentially overpriced. The nibs are dulled nails. If they had some of the interesting expressiveness of the M1000 nibs, then I would be happier.

 

At the end of the day it is all overpriced really. A small item for a niche market - by plain and simple economics, if you want it with quality it's going to have to be overpriced. But I still stand by what I said earlier on this thread and I think it's the only sensible approach: buy what you like and sell what you don't, keep the remainder and enjoy.

[Ron Z]

So would I.

I would hazard a guess that 99% of the reasons for why 99% of the fountain pen buying public in the Western world buy by brand perception rather than being genuinely able to know quality, whatever that is.

That brand perception reinforces the person that they are and their values.

 

I don't think that's true. In fact, I think that the inverse is true. I will grant that there are some who behave that way, there are always name dropping idiots in any group. But I find pen people to be very bright, very articulate and often very wise people who know the true value of a pen, and the more experienced they are, the more they understand the value of a good nib and a good pen. It doesn't take long before they get it.

[torstar]

At least we are not trying to equate cost of materials to cost of pen that some try to do on watch forums. Excluding a gold nib (which still is likely only a few dollars in gold, if that), 99% of pens likely have <$1 in raw materials cost.

 

Once one pays more than the cost of a free hotel pen the worth is in the eye of the beholder. My wife thinks all fountain pens (and non-quartz watches) are a waste on money... except for a Rolex with diamonds, curiously enough.

 

yes, with the invention of fire people have been able to take raw materials and shape them into objects that sell for a lot more than the raw materials....

[larsenproject]

I think I've never had a problem with the platinum preppy pens or any of my other 20 dollar or less pens. Some are more finicky or scratchy than others, but I am not opposed to taking a pen apart and sanding down the tip a little to make it work to my preference. I usually end up suggesting the preppy pens to my students for a micron alternative because they take platinum carbon cartridges and that is a rare waterproof fp ink.

 

I only have one very expensive pen: a vintage 1920s waterman that I bough for $100 off ebay. It is very tiny and draws lovely (and wet) and the nib has just enough give to offer an attractive variation in the line weight. But it was definitely a splurge for myself, as I could achieve the same line quality with a Konrad flex for much cheaper.

Edited March 16, 2018 by larsenproject

[larsenproject]

 

yes, with the invention of fire people have been able to take raw materials and shape them into objects that sell for a lot more than the raw materials....

 

LOL. I feel like we've been doing this pre fire ;P

 

Like that icon kitty 83