What Am I Missing About Expensive Pens?

[Bluey]

 

I don't think that's true. In fact, I think that the inverse is true. I will grant that there are some who behave that way, there are always name dropping idiots in any group. But I find pen people to be very bright, very articulate and often very wise people who know the true value of a pen, and the more experienced they are, the more they understand the value of a good nib and a good pen. It doesn't take long before they get it.

I think it is true, even if not apparent on the surface. Branding is a very powerful force. You also need to consider the fact that in the Western world people don't write with fountain pens anymore and the majority are bought as gifts, so brand perception is the only thing that most have to go by.

On the forum alone, I see brand perception being by far the most significant driver.

I also find that the more 'experienced'(more experience doesn't often mean wiser as this depends on the person's mindset) someone is, generally the more they become entrenched in their values.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bluey

[Uncial]

Posted by Bluey:

On the forum alone, I see brand perception being by far the most significant driver.

 

 

I think that is your perception due to your personal beef with Montblanc in particular. I don't believe you are right on that point though. I've seen, maybe a handful of posts here that might fall into this and not all about Montblanc. You could argue that your own repeated posts about Sailor and your repeated declaration of hatred of all things Montblanc is a mirror image of exactly the same thing. At least, it appears that way when read.

[Bluey]

Posted by Bluey:

On the forum alone, I see brand perception being by far the most significant driver.

 

 

I think that is your perception due to your personal beef with Montblanc in particular. I don't believe you are right on that point though. I've seen, maybe a handful of posts here that might fall into this and not all about Montblanc. You could argue that your own repeated posts about Sailor and your repeated declaration of hatred of all things Montblanc is a mirror image of exactly the same thing. At least, it appears that way when read.

In a way you've just helped to prove my point.

 

Also, your repeated declarations of my supposed "hatred" of Montblanc have long since become tiresome.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bluey

[larsenproject]

Isn't brand loyalty a normal thing, though? If you like the qualities of a certain brand, it makes sense to me you would recommend that brand.

[TSherbs]

 

Well that's a question you would have to put to the pen manufacturers themselves.

The other half of my post has disappeared into the ether somewhere... not once, but twice...this stupid site keeps reloading itself for some reason.

 

In regards to the OP's central question I find quite a lot of pens overpriced. I find a lot of 'cheapies' to be rubbish and a complete waste of money (although there are a few good ones out there, but in reality not many in the longer term) even though they may openly cost a euro. That includes an awful lot of pens. I went through a phase of picking up cheapies, buying Jinhao's, Baoer's, Kag's, Wing Sung's, etc, etc, and out of quite a number of pens I think I have kept about three. The rest were just junk. Brittle feeds, poor finishes, bad nibs, poor flow, broken caps - the list could go on. I look back on that period and wish I hadn't bothered at all and just gone with something that I knew was better quality and would last longer. I threw my money away and so in that sense all of those pens were expensive and overpriced.

 

The so-called medium range pens can be stupidly overpriced too. Sailor's standard line up of nibs are a bit dull to me. Well tuned generally, but nothing exciting. Some of their finishes are frankly sub standard and the plastic they use for the standard line up is awful - feels and looks cheap and unpleasant. I still like them overall as reliable and comfortable pens, but are they worth it? At the price that many western retailers sell them at, I think not. If you want something a bit special or different from Sailor you can get it, but you don't half pay for it.

 

Nakaya for me is overpriced and not worth it. I don't get on with their nibs and while I appreciate the artistry of their finishes, there are others that I think do it equally as well at a fraction of the cost and with far superior nibs without having the mystique of waiting for a year for it to arrive.

 

Pelikan M800's, although I love them and own many, are essentially overpriced. The nibs are dulled nails. If they had some of the interesting expressiveness of the M1000 nibs, then I would be happier.

 

At the end of the day it is all overpriced really. A small item for a niche market - by plain and simple economics, if you want it with quality it's going to have to be overpriced. But I still stand by what I said earlier on this thread and I think it's the only sensible approach: buy what you like and sell what you don't, keep the remainder and enjoy.

Your definition of "quality" likely differs from mine. I have found many pens of quality for less than $20. Some for less than $3. What you call "junk" is likely what constitutes my EDC for five years now. That's plenty of use and durability for me to call them "quality". Obviously, they are neither luxury nor fine goods. But my definition of quality is not much based in aesthetics, but rather practical use and reliability over time. I don't care much about craftsmanship except in how it effects functionality. And this can be found for pretty darn cheap if you want.

[Innosint]

 

LOL. I feel like we've been doing this pre fire ;P

 

Like that icon kitty 83

 

bone arrow head vs rock arrow head vs metal arrow head back in the good old old old day?

 

iirc MBs tested it, pretty much all serves the same funciton against animal at similar sharpness, but guess what, metal and rock ones were still made "just because."

 

We have been chasing after specialty made and material as long as language exist.

 

 

As for pricing, it's purely subject.

 

All I can say is the more I get into DIY or the process of "making" the more I am willing to shell out for custom hand made stuff.

 

For example, an Urushi pen, which lots of people deem over priced. can I make it my self? sure.

 

Can I get similar fiinsh quality? yeah, probably, based on my wood work and modeling experience.

 

How ever, just the parts alone, will cost me upwards of $350 on an ebonite pen + paint & tools without gold nib.

 

then there is the time cost, and the hassel to deal with the toxic material. I'd rattherjust pay the MSRP for it.

 

 

but for some, the extra cost is simply not worth it.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Innosint

[Uncial]

Posted by Tsherbs:

But my definition of quality is not much based in aesthetics, but rather practical use and reliability over time. I don't care much about craftsmanship except in how it effects functionality

 

I have a preference for a balance of both, which is not of course to say that my preferences are somehow better; they are just different. And the next person will come along with another set of priorities and wishes, and the next and the next. That's why the last point was made in my post. To answer a question like this you can really only answer it yourself. It's interesting to get other perspectives, but rarely will it match up entirely with what you want to enjoy and we are lucky and very fortunate to have such a wealth of choice.What is the OP missing in expensive pens? I really have no idea; only they can truly answer that for themselves. But as your own point proves, cheap or expensive, our preferences and senses perceive and look for different things, sometimes even in the same pen.

[Tweel]

This belief... that Japanese pens are modelling themselves on Montblanc is almost certainly [untrue]. If it were true... It would be akin to Ferrari trying to model themselves on some unknown tuk tuk brand.

 

Montblanc is an unknown brand?

[Bluey]

 

Montblanc is an unknown brand?

They were in Japan in the 1980s when the designs came about. MB are also still totally irrelevant to Japan as they do things their own way for their own language.

 

The point of the "unknown tuk tuk" brand is also not to say that MB is an unknown, but to show that they(ie Ferrari and some tuk tuk brand, MB and Japan) essentially have no connection with each other.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bluey

[dcwaites]

I think this thread is wandering off topic a bit. The question was about expensive pens vs cheaper pens. Not about MB vs the world.

If that was so, MB could sue Cuba for making cigars in the shape of a MB pen.

[mauckcg]

I think this thread is wandering off topic a bit. The question was about expensive pens vs cheaper pens. Not about MB vs the world.

If that was so, MB could sue Cuba for making cigars in the shape of a MB pen.

These types of threads are just feed the trolls threads.

[TSherbs]

I think this thread is wandering off topic a bit. The question was about expensive pens vs cheaper pens. Not about MB vs the world.

If that was so, MB could sue Cuba for making cigars in the shape of a MB pen.

It's been 10 pages. 😉

[TSherbs]

These types of threads are just feed the trolls threads.

Whoa.

[mauckcg]

Whoa.

Your surprised? How shocking...

[Innosint]

The thread basically gathering people of all culture, age, social status, then ask, "What is beauty."

[Lloyd]

The thread basically gathering people of all culture, age, social status, then ask, "What is beauty."

 

 

 

 

And the answer is everything and nothing.

[TSherbs]

And the answer is everything and nothing.

I side with "everything."

[hinky]

To be honest, I love threads like this. Sure, after a couple of pages, it veers off topic and crashes down the side of a hill, but the replies are often interesting and gives you insight into how other people think of (and enjoy) the hobby.

 

I think people (including me) tend to forget that in every hobby, the combinations of people's preferences are infinite and no one is right or wrong (maybe just a little too passionate to a fault though 😅). There will always be "fanboys" and "haters" and "trolls". To me, this is actually a good thing because if it weren't for them, there wouldn't be so many pen/ink/paper companies that strive to satisfy their varied wants/needs (more options for the rest of us 😉).

 

No one has to be "right" to enjoy something, and just because an opinion is in the minority also doesn't make it "wrong" (that's why there are soooo many pens/paper/inks/nibs in the market...preference is subjective). 😊

 

Anyway, we're 10 pages in. I guess I should get more popcorn 😅

 

P.s.

Sorry for the rant 😓

 

P.p.s.

Also, where's the OP? I hope we didn't scare him away 😅

[jmnav]

Hi, @zaddick:

 

It seems you are changing your question to suit your conclusion. I talk about value which is subjective. I gave examples. You must not agree, given the quoted post, and then talk about a different point. I could say no nib on Earth has a specific purpose that could not be replicated for a lower price point. So they all cost too much. Yet you have pens and I have pens so we value them more than the alternative opportunities to deploy our capitol.

I don't look to convince you. I feel you have the desire to be right, but maybe that's just my incorrect opinion.

 

Well, I think you both are talking about different things more than @Bluey changing his question. Yes, you are right in that value is a subjective perception and thus, yours alone. Yes, @Bluey is overloading their explanations with emotional terms (like calling Montblanc pens "junk"). But still, his point stands: even in classical capitalist theory (Adam Smith) there's a "honest" price to things that comes from healthy competition on a healthy market and, in the end, the root question Bluey is asking is "does this or that pen represents its healthy price?" Well, he answers himself when he says Montblanc pens are "junk", an emotional term that I translate to "no, I don't think Montblanc pricing is fair". Of course, I also take that this is not particularly aimed to Montblanc but to what Montblanc represents (which can be considered, on its own, a big success for them as it means the "Montblanc" brand exemplary represents their intent).

 

So, now, what could be considered a "fair" price? I would say that, from zaddick's point of view (a perfectly respectable one) is whatever price is paid as long as both parties don't feel forced to engage (that is: being forced to pay a fortune for a gallon of water in the middle of a natural disaster could perfectly be the "market price" for that good but it wouldn't be a "fair price"; but paying a fortune for a fountain pen out of your free will, just because you can and like the pen, would make for a "fair price" no matter what that price is).

 

On the other hand, bluey's point of view would be a more adamsmith-esque one: what's the marginal cost of this pen? what's the "ordinary profits of the money on the land"? what's the cost structure of the company to produce this pen? From his point of view (which I should say I quite share) if a company is earning a too high net profit on the pen (say, over 15%), or if their cost structure is not mainly focused on the pen itself (like, most of their costs coming from marketing and expensive boutiques, more than R&D and product costs), then the company might not be doing something "nasty" on itself but, definitively, it's a symptom that the company is operating on an unhealthy market and taking advantage of its unhealthiness. And, yes, if I need to tell, I do think fountain pen's market is more and more a luxury market and I do feel current luxury market trends, except for purely luxury goods (which pens, or watches, or lighters, etc. are not) makes for an unhealthy one.

 

But then, Bluey also mixes apples to oranges when he insists on his point of view about percieved value to be like the only valid one, which is something I can't share, even if my particular view on what makes value on a fountain pen is quite near to his. Yes, I also put more value on a pen's practical features than bling, no, I don't think all the value of a pen comes from a blind test: aesthetics and material quality also matter and is only fair that others value aesthetics over perfomance in a different way than I do, or even if someone other values what proper performance is, differently than I do.

[TSherbs]

Posted by Tsherbs:

But my definition of quality is not much based in aesthetics, but rather practical use and reliability over time. I don't care much about craftsmanship except in how it effects functionality

 

I have a preference for a balance of both, which is not of course to say that my preferences are somehow better; they are just different. And the next person will come along with another set of priorities and wishes, and the next and the next. That's why the last point was made in my post. To answer a question like this you can really only answer it yourself. It's interesting to get other perspectives, but rarely will it match up entirely with what you want to enjoy and we are lucky and very fortunate to have such a wealth of choice.What is the OP missing in expensive pens? I really have no idea; only they can truly answer that for themselves. But as your own point proves, cheap or expensive, our preferences and senses perceive and look for different things, sometimes even in the same pen.

Well put.