Waterman Ink Never Fully Absorbs On Rhodia

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Hi, I recently decided to upgrade my paper with Rhodia, but so far I have had only terrible experience with it. I write with Waterman's Harmonious Green, but the ink seems to never fully absorb. It is safe to touch with e.g. paper towel or another page in just about 30 seconds, but even after a week or more all it takes is just to lightly touch the paper with little sweaty hand and the ink smears like it was fresh.

When I write on regular Xerox paper or a normal notepad from a supermarket, it is just perfectly fine and no problems there. So, I reckon it must be either me or the ink. Since I never had any problems with my sweat being overly aggressive (watch straps or plating on them last me for years) my bet is on the ink. I think it is just not compatible with Rhodia paper.

Can someone here perhaps tell me if you have encountered same problem with Waterman on better papers?

Also, if anyone can recommend me some other emerald-green-ish ink that is holding well on Rhodia it will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[gerigo]

I believe this happens when your ink gets concentrated, and some of the water has evaporated. Have you had the bottle of ink for a while, or has your pen been inked for a long time?

[minddance]

There 2 sides of Rhodia - and most papers - with noticeable difference in absorbency, i.e. the 2 sides are not quite the same.

 

Waterman Serenity Blue does not feel very penetrative with papers to me therefore it works well with absorbent papers for me.

 

I find Rhodia hard and smooth and does not have an affinity with inks and certain nibs. It can take alot of ink without feathering and reveals the shadings.

 

Things might be 'better' if you write on the opposite side of the paper.

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To gerigo: Not really. It has been only about one month since I bought this bottle, I refil my pen once or twice a week and even always shake the bottle gently before filling to mix anything that might have sedimented on the bottom.. I also tried different pens (EF Parker, F Jinhao and M Pelikan) with different wetness and nib quality but they all give me the same result. It is my only ink that I use all the time so I don't have any other to compare it to. I might just try our local stationery shop and get at least some basic "schoolboy" cartridges for experimenting.

Anyway, was that just a thought from you or do you actually use the Waterman or Rhodia without any issues?

Edited February 20, 2018 by MattDiamond

[minddance]

You might be happy with this: use a wetter pen, or smear the inner part of a toothpick dipped in Kodak Photoflo, just a very tiny bit. But the perceived look and, even, intensity of your ink might change. Shadings, if you enjoy them, might be reduced as a result.

 

I actually do not enjoy the look of many inks, not only Waterman Serenity Blue, on Rhodia with many of my pens.

 

For me, Waterman Serenity Blue and Purple seem to like absorbent papers that encourage flow and nib contact more than Rhodia.

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to minddance: Hey thanks a lot for that input. Althought I might risk being kicked out from this forum - for me paper was always a paper with both sides..well..paper :-) But I tried now and there is a little noticeable difference on each side, but on both still smears when touched with wetter hands. But this now forced me to make a trip to nearest supermarket (even when it's 9PM here) and try with what they had - a blue and green cartridges by Schneider. And still same problem. Even when writing with reversed nib in super thin and super scratchy way there is quite a lot of smear..

But I am now browsing some other forums and seems like I am not the only one who has this issue with Rhodia. Guess I will just have to find another brand. Which is shame as I really love the flip cover design on my dotpad. I've read now that some people turned over to Leuchtturm and are perfectly happy with them so gonna give it a try.

 

EDIT: to your second note - I use veeery wet Pelikan M400 Medium (which is really rather broad-ish then medium) so the amount of unabsorbed pigment is probably just too big for the Rhodia. But no big deal as I bought just two dotpads out of the curiosity for few bucks. I will still use them at home (where I discovered not to have these problems as I am a polar bear and heat the house very little so I don't sweat at all). Only in my office where I need to touch, cross-out, add note or highlight a quite lot in my written notes, the Rhodia is apparently not the best solution.

Edited February 20, 2018 by MattDiamond

[minddance]

I cannot see the reason why you would be - if ever - kicked out of this forum for describing a concern that you encountered. I happen to encounter inks that smear on Rhodia too, and Rhodia is not the only paper that smears the same inks for me and I am sure we are not alone. I guess this hobby is about mix-and-match and very much personal preferences and sometimes give-and-take situations. If something does not work for me, this could be the place to discuss and learn, and if things still do not improve, then I might have to tinker abit or look for combinations of ink/pen/paper to make myself happy

 

 

to minddance: Hey thanks a lot for that input. Althought I might risk being kicked out from this forum - for me paper was always a paper with both sides..well..paper :-) But I tried now and there is a little noticeable difference on each side, but on both still smears when touched with wetter hands. But this now forced me to make a trip to nearest supermarket (even when it's 9PM here) and try with what they had - a blue and green cartridges by Schneider. And still same problem. Even when writing with reversed nib in super thin and super scratchy way there is quite a lot of smear..

But I am now browsing some other forums and seems like I am not the only one who has this issue with Rhodia. Guess I will just have to find another brand. Which is shame as I really love the flip cover design on my dotpad. I've read now that some people turned over to Leuchtturm and are perfectly happy with them so gonna give it a try.

 

EDIT: to your second note - I use veeery wet Pelikan M400 Medium (which is really rather broad-ish then medium) so the amount of unabsorbed pigment is probably just too big for the Rhodia. But no big deal as I bought just two dotpads out of the curiosity for few bucks. I will still use them at home (where I discovered not to have these problems as I am a polar bear and heat the house very little so I don't sweat at all). Only in my office where I need to touch, cross-out, add note or highlight a quite lot in my written notes, the Rhodia is apparently not the best solution.

[Chrissy]

It sounds like your ink/pen/paper combination is plenty wet enough, and PhotoFlo would tend to make it seem wetter if anything.

 

If you have any sample vials, I suggest you add a small amount of your Waterman ink to a vial then add a drop or two of water. That will tend to make it write a little dryer. Or if you have a filled converter for one of your pens, then add just a drop of water to your converter, to see if that improves it or not.

 

I've never heard of a problem like this happening on Rhodia paper before. What do you clean out your pens with before you refill them?

[LizEF]

It seems odd to me that anyone would expect a non-waterproof ink to do anything but smear when in comes into contact with water or anything damp (fingers or whatever else).

 

Last year, for our 2017 52 inks project, I used Waterman Harmonious Green in a wet 1.1 stub on Rhodia dot paper for week #3 - which I didn't catch up to until 08 April 2017:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317490-week-3-15-jan-when-old-loves-rekindle-2017-weekly-ink-project/?p=3826139

 

I just dug it out of a drawer where I toss scribbles, and it doesn't budge with a dry hand. As I would expect, with a wet finger, it smears - 10+ months later. (Cuz it's not at all waterproof - I could probably hold it under the tap and wash it all away.)

 

It sounds to me like you either need to adopt a habit of keeping something between your hand and the paper (a 2-finger glove or a slip of paper, blotter, or plastic) or switch to a waterproof ink.

[minddance]

I see 2 problems here, now that Chrissy mentioned water.

 

OP mentioned he observed that ink does not seem to be absorbed by the paper. Knowing that Rhodia is not an absorbent paper, I suggested adding Kodak photoflo which is a surfactant. Surely it increases flow but at the same time enables ink to penetrate paper better (?), and the nature of the ink has certainly changed not just its flow rate. Flow rate is a manifestation of lower surface tension. The paper is properly 'wetted', deeper fibres are dyed, ink and paper becomes one.

 

I say this from my experience with Rhodia because many inks tend to stay on the surface of this rather non-absorbent paper.

 

Our friend Chrissy suggested adding water and I think I might be able to appreciate the reason: Adding water could reduce the concentration of dye on paper and probably reduce flow. (but at the same time prevent penetration into paper (?)). The amount of smear might be less intense compared to undiluted ink but would ink stay unabsorbed by paper?

 

OP also mentioned his positive experience with Xerox copier paper which I assume to be more absorbent than Rhodia. Therefore I suggested adding Kodak Photoflo.

 

Would it be correct to think that adding water to ink would provide results that would become 'more Rhodia' and Surfactants like Kodak photoflo would skew results towards that with absorbent paper?

 

But still I won't know what exactly caused the smearing. Could it be lack of absorbency or too high a dye load?

 

Hi, I recently decided to upgrade my paper with Rhodia, but so far I have had only terrible experience with it. I write with Waterman's Harmonious Green, but the ink seems to never fully absorb. It is safe to touch with e.g. paper towel or another page in just about 30 seconds, but even after a week or more all it takes is just to lightly touch the paper with little sweaty hand and the ink smears like it was fresh.

When I write on regular Xerox paper or a normal notepad from a supermarket, it is just perfectly fine and no problems there. So, I reckon it must be either me or the ink. Since I never had any problems with my sweat being overly aggressive (watch straps or plating on them last me for years) my bet is on the ink. I think it is just not compatible with Rhodia paper.

Can someone here perhaps tell me if you have encountered same problem with Waterman on better papers?

Also, if anyone can recommend me some other emerald-green-ish ink that is holding well on Rhodia it will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[minddance]

LizEF attributed the smearing due to the non-waterproofness and contact of possibly wet hands with the ink of paper. I have experienced what LizEF described and totally agree. However, OP mentioned Xerox Paper and this piqued my curiosity: with the same ink and pens and hands in contact, why would he have a problem-free experience, assuming it is as problem-free as he described.

 

It seems odd to me that anyone would expect a non-waterproof ink to do anything but smear when in comes into contact with water or anything damp (fingers or whatever else).

 

Last year, for our 2017 52 inks project, I used Waterman Harmonious Green in a wet 1.1 stub on Rhodia dot paper for week #3 - which I didn't catch up to until 08 April 2017:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/317490-week-3-15-jan-when-old-loves-rekindle-2017-weekly-ink-project/?p=3826139

 

I just dug it out of a drawer where I toss scribbles, and it doesn't budge with a dry hand. As I would expect, with a wet finger, it smears - 10+ months later. (Cuz it's not at all waterproof - I could probably hold it under the tap and wash it all away.)

 

It sounds to me like you either need to adopt a habit of keeping something between your hand and the paper (a 2-finger glove or a slip of paper, blotter, or plastic) or switch to a waterproof ink.

[minddance]

My guess is in 2 things,

 

1. The preventive nture of the ink (prevents itself from being absorbed too quickly and thoroughly by papers)

2. The preventive nature of Rhodia, being a slow- or non-absorbent paper.

 

Ink dries and remains on the coated/treated surface of the paper and is prevented from fully penetrating the deeper parts of it.

 

If OP had not mentioned a 'perfectly fine' experience with Xerox paper and 'normal notepad', I am inclined to believe that it is simply a matter of the ink being non-waterproof and hands being hands, smear inks.

[Chrissy]

I think LizEF got it right. It's the dampness of the hands that is doing the smearing, and not the fact that the ink hasn't dried or been absorbed into the paper.

 

I write on A4 sized Tomoe River paper a lot. It's not absorbent. If I make the mistake of rubbing or touching it with a damp finger then the ink will smear because it's not waterproof or smear proof.

 

I tend to have a spare piece of paper that I always rest my hand on as I carry on writing write down the paper, otherwise I come to a patch of paper that almost seems slightly oily where my pen won't write properly because it has absorbed some oils or moisture from my skin. I think this is what the OP needs to prevent him from making the Rhodia paper less absorbent.

 

After writing, you won't be able to go back and rub the surface with anything that isn't completely dry.

[1234124124124ASDA]

Wow! First than you all for all the contribution here. You see I am absolute noob when it comes to inks but now starting to see all the chemistry behind it. I will definitely try at least watering the ink down a tiny bit as soon as I get home to my converter pen and sure try to get my hands on the Photoflo as well.

Meantime I also found a local store that sells Montblanc's Irish Green in cartridges so gonna grab also those in during the week and try if they do behaves differently or not.

[LizEF]

LizEF attributed the smearing due to the non-waterproofness and contact of possibly wet hands with the ink of paper. I have experienced what LizEF described and totally agree. However, OP mentioned Xerox Paper and this piqued my curiosity: with the same ink and pens and hands in contact, why would he have a problem-free experience, assuming it is as problem-free as he described.

 

First, of course the paper is going to have something to do with smearing - with Rhodia, the ink is on the surface, relatively easily moved by water; with crappy copy paper, the ink is absorbed into the fibers - moving it requires moving it around amongst those fibers rather than on top of them, and the water has a harder time getting to and moving the ink.

 

As a test, I have just put Waterman Harmonious Green onto 20lb crappy copy paper. In some places, heavy enough for it to feather and be quite dark. I shall now lick my finger and report what happens when I smear it on the paper... The ink smears, but not so easily as Rhodia (to be expected). Indeed, the white bits between the ink lines soak up my saliva pretty quickly so that it's rather hard to swipe across multiple lines. Now I'll go put it under the tap, since it's headed for the garbage anyway... The ink spread, feathered, and some of it washed away.

 

Meanwhile, the good news is that the fridge was between my computer and the sink, and there are Hershey's Kisses in the fridge (though fewer than a moment ago). I'm now going to conduct experiments of how well Hershey's Kisses dissolve in saliva...

Edited February 21, 2018 by LizEF

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So as suggested I tried to water down the ink a little bit in my converter and must say it holds/absorbs significantly better on the Rhodia now. Not perfect though, as some smearing still occurs with wet/sweaty hands. My main concern for this was because I need to use my paper mostly for notes in which I later add more comments, highlight etc. So I guess a different paper is way to go for me. I bought a Pigna Monocromo notepad this morning (which is also a 80g, same as Rhodia) and it is much better. Just tiny bit of feathering but ink fully absorbs and is safe to touch in seconds.

[LizEF]

I'd change the ink to one that explicitly says it's waterproof before using paper that feathers - iron gall, document, pigment, or whatever Noodler's does.

[minddance]

Hi, I recently decided to upgrade my paper with Rhodia, but so far I have had only terrible experience with it. I write with Waterman's Harmonious Green, but the ink seems to never fully absorb. It is safe to touch with e.g. paper towel or another page in just about 30 seconds, but even after a week or more all it takes is just to lightly touch the paper with little sweaty hand and the ink smears like it was fresh.

When I write on regular Xerox paper or a normal notepad from a supermarket, it is just perfectly fine and no problems there. So, I reckon it must be either me or the ink. Since I never had any problems with my sweat being overly aggressive (watch straps or plating on them last me for years) my bet is on the ink. I think it is just not compatible with Rhodia paper.

Can someone here perhaps tell me if you have encountered same problem with Waterman on better papers?

Also, if anyone can recommend me some other emerald-green-ish ink that is holding well on Rhodia it will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

If xerox papers and supermarket notepads work perfectly fine for you, then stick with what works And they are possibly cheaper than Rhodia. So why Rhodia?

 

Your own experience matters most to you and that is the only 'true' experience for yourself, not mine or anyone else's because ultimately, you are the one writing.

[Noihvo]

 

[Noihvo]