Suggestions For Xxf / Narrow Stub Pens

[j.a.j.]

I would kindly appreciate any ideas on pens that would mach these criteria to help me avoid another expensive mistake..

• Has Japanese EF or ~0.6 stub available without regrind
• Cap is as airtight as possible, love my Indian ebonite pens but nibs drying out is a issue with narrow nibs
• Wide section, for example Lamy 2000 is too narrow
• Slightly bottom heavy or balanced, for example Pilot 912 feels too top heavy
• Section without large step, for example TWSBI 580 is not perfect for me
• Relatively hard nib with little feedback, Pilot VP is slightly too hard with slightly not enough feedback
• Large golden spot on nib, sold my two Sailors..

Some of the pens I have found working for me:

• Lamy Safari is ok if a bit small
• FC Ambition & Ondoro kind of ok
• Lamy Aion is my pen for quick meeting notes, maybe would be too heavy for XXF

 

Some ideas I have so far

• Omas 360 with XXF regrind?
• Franklin Christoph 20 with Masuyama needlepoint?
• MB 149 with plastic mechanism (too soft nib?) with XXF regrind
• Visconti Rembrandt with XXF / Stub regrind
• Sheaffer Legacy / PFM factory Stub / XXF regrind (a sacrilege, I know)
• Platinum President EF

Any additional ideas?

 

Do you think it's likely that if I find relatively large nibbed Pilot 912 too top heavy I'll likely find out that Platinum President, MB 149 and other large nibbed pens top heavy also? JoWo #6 on Indian ebonite pens feels very nicely balanced IMO.

[Inkling13]

Some ideas for you to consider:

 

The smaller the tipping, the smaller your sweet spot. An XXXF nib will want to write in a very specific way, compared to a BBBB round ball tipped nib.

 

The sharper your "corners" are on a tip, say an italic nib vs a stub, the more exacting your position is to land on that sweet spot. Think of it like this: your paper and pen surfaces need to contact at parallel to each other. Italic needs to match exactly, but a ball tipped pen has a wider range of angles that will land that same parallel interface, since your writing tip is a ball.

 

So, i encourage you to reconsider your selection, because an XXXF nib certainly does not meet your criteria for a wide sweet spot, and I am assuming that is why they were sold. Considering Sailor nibs, they were the cream of the crop that few if any other makers of nibs can master, so if you weren't happy, I'd consider going up in some sizes to a M or B.

[woleizihan]

Airtight cap + Japanese EF with some feedback. You cannot go wrong with the Platinum. One thing I would suggest is try a 3776 EF first because it's just about 1/3 price of a President.

Edited February 13, 2018 by woleizihan

[j.a.j.]

I'm okay with Pilot 912 PO's golden spot. Line wide is about 0.2 mm but you don't need to concentrate to keep the pen angled "just right". Sailor's small EF gold nib's (Sailor Pro Gear Slim / Pocket) wider nibs, about 0.3mm had much smaller golden. I know some people like Sailor's nib as they are very smooth when the flat foot aligns perfectly with the paper but that is not for me. (Didn't like Lamy 2000 EF for the same reason.) I prefer ball shaped foot.

 

I had Platinum 3776 UEF, nice nib but sold it because the section had too big a step.. Maybe just need to order the President with EF or UEF from the bay and see how it goes..

[jagwap]

I wanted something similar so I went for a Sailor pro gear II with an EF nib. This is equivalent to an EEF or XXf fine in european pens I believe.

 

Compared to my Rotring Rapidographs it is between 0.25 and 0.35 in line thickness, but much easier to write with, as it doesn't prefer a perpendicular angle and is much smoother.

 

There is a nicely balanced feedback for such a small nib, and little springiness.

 

The EF is not officially available on the pro gear II, but the nice people at the writingdesk swapped it out for me as the nibs are interchangable with other pro gear models.

 

I'm happy with this pen. Online pictures of the pro gear II looked less appealing to me than the original pro gear, but in person it can be seen as the upgrade that it is.

 

I think Sailor's music nib may also suit you, but I don't have much experience there. I also like a fine italic, which are uncommon, so I ground my own.

[j.a.j.]

Thank you for the suggestion of Sailor Music nib on Pro Gear II, it seems to be really good starting point for a custom ground stub!

 

My experience with Sailor's EF and F nibs has been that the golden spot is relatively small due tot the shape of the nib's foot.

[Torrilin]

Are you looking for a Japanese style xf ball nib or a 0.6mm stub or both? I first read your request as just wanting the stub, but upon rereading I’m not sure.

 

There aren’t many brands that offer a stock 0.6mm stub intentionally, and I haven’t used enough to have a good feel for the size. And I’m definitely not an expert in the nuances between a true stub, a cursive italic and a formal italic. But I write italic calligraphy and I consider italic nibs pretty essential for a useful pen. My understanding is that most stock “italic” nibs are a cursive italic or stub grind, and that the stock ones I like are more towards the cursive italic end.

 

It sounds to me like you’re asking for the precise opposite of what I want in an italic nib, and in that case a custom grind is likely your best bet. I’d strongly suggest a pen show and testing in person in that case, and if you have pens that are close bring them.

 

Also, it really helps for both xf ball nibs and italic nibs if you care about your technique. It doesn’t take much intentional practice to get a lot more flexibility out of your existing pens. If you try to treat a fountain pen like a ballpoint or roller ball, it won’t be fun.

[j.a.j.]

I'm looking for both EF ball nib and 0.6 stubs.

 

I have spent considerable amount of time to re-learn how to hold a pen and how to write. It has not completely transfered to my sketching. I find it difficult to keep my hand in consistent angle when doing quick sketches. Hence the need to have ball shaped EF..

 

I like to use italic nibs with dramatic line variation at home (wish there were 1.0 Pilot Parallel) but at the moment 90% of my writing is quick scribbles at work, and stubs are more practical for that.

[Torrilin]

Ok, then my next question is what ink and paper for the drawing?

 

I only have 2 nibs around a true Japanese xf width. One is a box stock Lamy Safari nib. The other is on a Pilot Penmanship. The Safari is relatively agreeable about ink. Not infinitely, but it is a fairly flexible nib in terms of what inks work (it really hated R&K Sepia and it’s sometimes balky about Lamy Blue Black, but most everything else has been nice). The Penmanship nib... isn’t. I’ve tried it on Iroshizuko and it was extremely rude. And the Penmanship body loathes my grip, or did. I wound up pulling and replacing the nib in a new position to get a grip that works. I’m a lefty and the stock arrangement I just couldn’t get to work without jabbing me. And the grip has really sharp edges. I’ve got it inked with Pilot Blue Black now and it might be working for drawing. The fix isn’t more than a week old so I don’t really know yet. But I don’t loathe it anymore so there’s that.

 

I haven’t tried the Platinum, Pilot or Sailor desk pens, but all of them have fine nibs judging from artists’ reviews and they’re cheap and durable. The grips tend to be round. I’m not sure whether the Pilot versions swap with other Pilot steel nibs. From reviews the Platinum has the most generous ink flow, but I haven’t seen any comparisons that are really thorough. (What I’d love to see is a both sizes of Preppy, all 3 desk pens, Penmanship and Kakuno xf, covering at least a couple different paper styles)

 

My default drawing pen is a TWSBI xf, tho it’s a regular German xf. Very good comparison to my Pilot fines, and still fine enough for detail work. Very nice ink capacity. I’d 100% recommend the JoWo xf nibs that TWSBI uses if you can deal with a fatter line. Maruman is making a basics spiral bound notebook that comes in blank and is quite cheap compared to their usual price, but just as nice paper as their better lines. I burned through my first one even faster than my first few Mnemosyne.

 

For basically all my good drawing pens, I find Platinum Carbon Black is the ink that fixes pens. Obviously don’t stick it in an irreplaceable pen on a whim, but for the usual cheap artist favorites it’s fine. Good flow, good dry time, not fussy about paper (you can get it to feather like crazy on absorbent enough paper but it takes some doing), gets on with many pens. There’s plenty of people here who are equally passionate about Kiwa-guro so I’d definitely recommend trying them both.

 

I think the Parallel nibs are too thick a design to work at 1.0mm (I have a 2.3mm and I’m not sure I could go narrower), but Pilot makes a steel 1.0mm italic that’s available stock on metros, Plumix, Prera and I think some others. Plumix and Penmanship use the same body, and I’ve hacked mine the same way and now I can see why all the hype for a $8 pen and nib. I don’t hate it, and I hate an awful lot of nibs for being bad at hairlines. I haven’t done enough with the hacked pen to know if I like it. Yet. I’m ok with it for quick scribbles.

 

Also if you’re doing most of your shopping in English, keep in mind that Sailor and Platinum use quite different nib measure systems, and stuff for English speakers doesn’t necessarily get good labels. For the Japanese market they make some really fine and cheap steel school pens.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I think XXF is way too narrow to worry about stubs.

I have problems thinking about seeing a pattern in EF.

F is good for stubs, one can see the pattern well.

[j.a.j.]

Of all of the Pilot's pen's that use the small steel nib (Penmanship, 78g, Metropolitan etc.) my favourite is Penmanship. I fitted the EF nib from my Penmanship to a Prera and it is a really delightful pen (if a bit small). However the Prera's nib starts to clog after a couple of days regardless of which ink I throw at it. Tried at least Sailor's and Platinums black carbon inks, Waterman's and Iroshizuku.. Need to figure out what's the problem.

 

Pilot's desk pen uses the small steel nib so maybe I should get one. Also, I like a lot of 02 Preppys nib (but loathe the step) so maybe I should also get one Platinum desk pen..

 

I have not yet tried Maruman's notebooks, need to definitely check the spiral bound. Mostly use Leuchtturm notebooks (mediocre paper but light dots) and Rhodia / Whitelines pads.

 

TWSBI 580 accepts Pilot #5 nibs and I have one fitted with a F nib from Custom 74 on my 580. It's quite nice but the step in the section drives me mad.

 

The couple of custom ground stubs I have started out as either F or M. Not, dreaming of ever using < 0.5 stubs although I know some people like them quite a lot.

[AAAndrew]

As Bo Bo points, out, there comes a point where the increasingly smaller stub can no longer be a stub. Basically, if you think about what a stub is, the point has to be wider than it is thick. As the two dimensions come closer together, your ability to see the difference diminishes. Now, I've never used a specifically-dimensioned .6mm stub, but I have used some pretty fine stubs in dip pens. You still have the "sweet spot" issue with some of these even if you can barely see the difference between thick and thin lines.

 

For me, after a certain point, stub vs. ball makes no difference except in so far as the ball may be easier to write with.

 

Something to think about.

[Torrilin]

Yeah, I can see how the Penmanship nib clogging could get annoying. I figured I’d try it with the blue black to see if there was any ink I liked it with. It really is ridiculously fine, and I can definitely see how between batch variation and the tight tolerances it could be fussy about ink.

 

The Platinum version of the desk pen is explicitly designed for carbon black, and it is supposed to have a specially designed feed just for that one ink. So it’s definitely worth looking at if you like that ink. It’s gotten a lot of praise for being super boring and reliable.

 

I seem to recall seeing now that I think on it that Pilot has multiple desk pen model numbers.

 

I’ve got one 580 and one eco, and I love them both. So we’ve definitely got different taste in pen bodies. I’m not sure I’d try swapping the Penmanship nib onto my 580, I really like the stock nib and the pens are very very close in terms of nib. The eco and 580 that is. It’s really handy having two super identical nibs that are xf enough for me.

[j.a.j.]

I realise that the post topic might be a bit misleading. I am not looking after XXF stubs but XXF balls and ~0.6 stubs.

 

I see the question of stub width mostly as a function of letter height. Off course the line variation of a 0.6 stub is not as dramatic as that of >1mm stub. But if your small letters tend to be about 3mm high a >1mm stub is highly unpractical for quick scribbling.

 

Just ordered the Platinum desk pen. I figured that if it feels too back heavy I can always take a bit of from the top and have a sawed of fountain pen on my jacket. Hah.

 

I was perhaps a bit obscure, Pilot Custom 74's #5 nib is a gold nib that has different fitting than the small steel nib on Prera et al. Pilot makes for example #5 Soft Fine nibs so it's possible to use quite many interesting nibs on the 580 you like (after getting the #5 from Pilot fitted well enough to the 580 which takes a few tries).

[ink-syringe]

Sorry, I can't help you as you have way too many criteria. Every time I think of a pen it doesn't match one or two of the more than half dozen you outline.

 

But I am baffled by the assertion that the 912 is top heavy. What are you calling the top nib or end finial? Are you posting? I have a bunch of 912 and use them unposted and find they are ergonomic champs.

 

A Franky Christopher 20 fits your bill closest (though I have heard dry-out issues with that cap) that I can think of.

3776 comes close as well. Though might be too small.

 

Or get a Pelikan M600 from someone who can grind it down w/o sending it out (Dan Smith? Nibs.com?)

 

 

 

I would kindly appreciate any ideas on pens that would mach these criteria to help me avoid another expensive mistake..

• Slightly bottom heavy or balanced, for example Pilot 912 feels too top heavy

[j.a.j.]

I know I am a bit complicated, at least when it comes to pens.

 

I prefer pens which are either extremely light (read ebonite), really heavy or have their center of mass as low as possible. I somehow hate it when a pen feels like it's resting on my hand, it kind of needs to fall towards the paper, not my hand. If the pen feels like it rests on my hand it's more difficult to keep the nibs contact to the paper very light which strains my hand pretty fast.

 

(912 is far from the worst pens in that regard but using it is difficult for me also because can't grip the pen without the threads being under my fingers.)

 

I have been thinking a lot about Pelikan 600. Now that I think of it I do have a really nice nib from 140 I could fit into one. FC 20 is a very good suggestion, the price including a needlepoint grind is really reasonable, thank you!

[Bo Bo Olson]

A medium-small but long posting 140's nib is semi-flex.....but it will look dorky in a medium-large 600 or a standard sized 400.

Been there, rented the table they sold the T-shirts from.

 

Well in 99% would never really know...do it, the 1% that would...just tell the truth...the nib's semi-flex and smile..........

 

What happened to the 140?....a very good pen posted....as long as a standard posted 400....posting gives those pen their fine balance.....a 600 has better balance posted than not.

A German medium short pen was very IN in the '50-60's....I have a 100n, 140, Geha 760, Kawaco Dia, Osmia 64 and one or two others...............all have longer caps to post to standard posted length.

 

I did grow up back in B&W TV days, when a pen had to have very good balance to sell...in they were used all day long..........so I flog that dead horse about that too.

IMO out side the Snorkel...and perhaps the P-45 there are few Large pens with real good balance, and the Snorkel posted has great balance....it had to to supplant the well balanced the medium large P-51. The P-75 I find to have great balance , and is light for a metal pen.

 

If you are scared to post because it might just mar your pen....use Carnauba car wax. Since I waxed my pens, I've never had a mar. So use it first.

 

The truth was very few of my pens had mars, and they were finger polished (not cloth) out with something like Semi-Chrome in a minute or so. Yes, one buffs with a flannel cloth, but don't go rubbing at it with a dipped cloth under a pressing finger....all one needs is just a bare finger to polish the mar away.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Torrilin]

For Franklin-Christoph definitely think about seeing them at a pen show. Apparently the needlepoint is on the wide side of needlepoint. Not inherently bad, but since you’re after razor fine it might not suit. At a show you’ll be able to get more adjustments and try a variety of body/nib combos. They also seem to offer a lot of italic options.

 

They have offered a fude nib as a special offer at least once, and fudes are great fun. Lots of line variation, and a very different feel. And they’re very rewarding of a lighter touch on the pen. Great drawing nibs.

 

Haven’t tried their pens yet, but they definitely seem to be a very nib geeky kind of pen maker.

[j.a.j.]

For some reason the 140, even posted does not feel nice in my hand. However 100n fit's my hand nicely. Off course I could start to hunt for 100n's but I don't feel comfortable with carrying pre 60's vintage pen to my work. Too afraid I would break it. This leaves out many interesting fountain pens, Parker's oversized Duofold's and Vacumatics seem to be really nice. There are some very interesting younger vintage pens I'm considering, Sheaffer's PFM and Legacyfor example.

 

Thank you for the suggestion of using waxing on pens, probably should do that for some of my pens.

 

Too bad there are no pen shows, or even pen shops with extensive selection here in Northern Europe. Fortunately I can get some good advise here. A shame the needlepoint is not on the thinner site but I'm ok with asian F nibs.

 

Hero H718 that was recently reviewed seems interesting, would probably make a great pocket stub pen after a regrind.