Demand For Flex Nibs: Do People Want Them?

[max dog]

  On 5/3/2018 at 10:02 PM, Corona688 said:

??

 

"These are the modern options." "Too bad there's no modern options". This endless cycle confuses me so much.

 

If that's a hunt 101 as NB says, that's the most difficult-to-use nib I have in my collection.

....To yours and Tony's post, didnt mean to confuse or contradict. Seeing that video made me realize more that people appreciate art, and flex script as a lost art is still appreciated today. Just wanted to point out if there were more, much more modern flex pens made available in the market today the demand for flex would flourish. There are some good modern options today, but could be much better if some of the major brands invested in it more. Looking at you Pilot, Pelikan, Montblanc, Lamy, TWSBI...etc

[Jamerelbe]

  On 4/30/2018 at 3:18 AM, tonybelding said:

 

The reason I started this thread was because there is an affordable and reliable modern flex fountain pen available off-the-shelf that is easy to use for a newbie—and it doesn't seem to be getting much buzz. That's the Karas Kustoms Ink with the Bock Titan nib that you can get right now from Goulet for $140. But I don't know who (aside from me) has got one; I don't see others reviewing it.

 

I have a few Bock titanium nibs (one EF, one F, one M) - and I agree, they're lovely writers with a fair degree of 'spring'. I'd hesitate to call them a flex nib, though - especially the EF, which (to my surprise) is stiffer than the other two.

 

The concern I've seen expressed re using Bock Titanium nibs for flex or semi-flex writing is that titanium (apparently) has less "spring-back" than gold or stainless steel - there's a much higher risk that you'll spring the tines permanently, and the metal is much harder to work with in order to straighten and realign.

 

All of the above may be errant nonsense - I haven't investigated it thoroughly myself, and have no desire to "push the envelope" with my own titanium nibs to find out. I'm happy to apply a little pressure to broaden the line - and yes, it's much more responsive than a Noodler's or FPR steel 'flex' nib - but I'd be really worried that anyone who tries to lay down a 2+mm line with one of these pens would find themselves looking at a very expensive failed experiment.

 

@Tony Belding, how far have you been game to push your titanium nibs? I confess I'm no expert - so I may just be repeating someone else's prejudice here...

[ReadyFireAim]

  On 5/4/2018 at 1:32 AM, Jamerelbe said:

...and yes, it's much more responsive than a Noodler's or FPR steel 'flex' nib -

Noodler's Creaper & KWZ Red #3

[ReadyFireAim]

  On 5/3/2018 at 10:02 PM, Corona688 said:

If that's a hunt 101 as NB says, that's the most difficult-to-use nib I have in my collection.

 

I'm pretty sure it is.

I paused the video and compared it to the ones I have that are close.

 

If you want to feel great about your Hunt 101, try a Leonardt Principal EF. (glass cutters)

I stopped using them because they either pick up fibers or spatter.

I've got a box of 12 that I'll give someone a good deal on.

Maybe they are oblique pen use only???

 

Anyway...The Hunt 101 is doable if I microwave Nemosine paper and sand it with .01 micron Mylar.

It is one S L O W pen but the hairlines are fantastic.

I force myself to use it once a week and switching to a Zebra-G is like using a ballpoint.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[AAAndrew]

Think the Hunt 101 is sharp, do ya? Here, hold my beer.

 

[gets out a 19th-century Gillott #1 Principality Extra-Fine]

 

This bugger'll stab you from a foot away. You write with it about an inch away from the paper. They're also about $30+ each, if you can find 'em. Somehow the fancy lads, i.e. Master Penmen, can use 'em, but they'er ought for us mortals.

 

A vintage Gillott 303 or Hunt 56 are about as sharp as I care to tackle.

 

O' course, there's sommat to say for an hairline you can actually see, so sharp-as-all ain't everything.

[Corona688]

Huh. Looking at the Principality and the 101, you could almost mistake them for the same nib. At least in silhouette, the resemblance is uncanny. Are they similar in size?

 

[edit] They are really, really close. https://www.iampeth.com/lesson/getting-started/look-fine-flexible-nibs

Edited May 4, 2018 by Corona688

[sansenri]

  On 4/30/2018 at 3:18 AM, tonybelding said:

 

The reason I started this thread was because there is an affordable and reliable modern flex fountain pen available off-the-shelf that is easy to use for a newbie—and it doesn't seem to be getting much buzz. That's the Karas Kustoms Ink with the Bock Titan nib that you can get right now from Goulet for $140. But I don't know who (aside from me) has got one; I don't see others reviewing it.

You did mention the reason for starting your thread, however your thread title "Demand for flex nibs: do people want them?" is way broader, so I assumed there would be space to digress in that direction.

Anyway, I have only one titanium nib on a Stipula, and I assume it is made by Bock, so it is likely to be the same as the one on your Karas Kustoms (which I have never heard of before). Here in Europe shops like Goulet are out of reach, mainly because shipping costs + taxes from US to EU cost a fortune so, it is usually better to find local pen and ink sources, and the Karas shipped from US might cost me more than a Stipula with a titanium nib bought in a local store...

Still if I can judge by the nib on my Stipula I am not enthusiastic. I am not sure what it is, but I prefer a Stipula 14k nibs, even though there is usually not much flex to Stipula gold nibs, and even the Stipula steel nibs feel better as they are not rigid and have some fast spring to them.

Edited May 4, 2018 by sansenri

[sansenri]

  On 5/3/2018 at 11:30 PM, Strelnikoff said:

 

Now THAT is a beautiful pen!

 

I am ... I will buy Aurora 88 - regardless of the flex or no flex nib (I can exchange with my 88s Aniversarios) which has a cap like your pen and black barrel.

And you are right, I've seen those "older" nibs with longer tines, and tried few. But looking at my current 88s they were slightly less flexible. Well, who knows what is Aurora doing, if they are manufacturing new batches or using old ones, maybe they have really tweaked old alloy, maybe not. I know I love my pens, and some are semi-flex at best, some are fully flexible. I'm ok with that, I don't need full flexibility all the time.

you mean... this one? (note, it's a long tines too)

 

 

actually even in these, as you described yourself, flexibility differs, and the finer tips tend to be more flex (F is more flex than M).

You are probably right that Aurora tweaked the production slightly to get more flex out of the new nibs, but the reason they were able to offer these nibs is probably because they still had the manufacturing equipment, because these nibs were still available on Aurora pens not too long ago. If you compare them, the shape is identical to the new flex. The sad story tells that more and more often Aurora kept receiving complaints from clients springing the nibs and misaligning the tines, as a consequence of there being less and less people capable of using these nibs.

To contrast this they moved to the shorter tines models! Now they are riding the renewed interest in flex nibs!

 

 

[ReadyFireAim]

  On 5/4/2018 at 9:03 PM, Corona688 said:

Huh. Looking at the Principality and the 101, you could almost mistake them for the same nib.

Yes, It's very hard to tell the difference between the two and AAAndrew probably knows a dozen more that are very close.

I'm making an assumption that the lady in the video is using a modern nib and not some rare antique.

 

Here is my current lineup. (Except the Leonardt Principal EF which I will not use anymore)

 

Noodler's Creaper (grind between XF & XXF and I leave this one inked at all times)

Zebra-G

Leonardt-G (My favorite right now)

Hunt 101

Leonardt Principal EF

Brause Rose (My #2)

Edited May 4, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[Jamerelbe]

  On 5/4/2018 at 11:21 AM, Nail-Bender said:

IMG_0823.JPG

Noodler's Creaper & KWZ Red #3

 

Not disagreeing that the Noodler's (and FPR) nibs can produce impressive line variation - but the downward pressure required is much greater. Titanium is more "responsive" in the sense of requiring less downward pressure to spread the tines.

 

My concern re the potential to damage these nibs is based on some comments by Richard Binder - my experience re the springiness and wetness of the material differs from his, so he may be wrong on this too, but here is the quote from his webpage:

 

"Titanium is serviceable, but it is not flexible; it’s like an 18K alloy that’s too hard. Titanium nibs give a good soft springy feel, but go a tiny fraction of a degree too far and you’ve sprung your nib. In the hands of a nib technician titanium is soft; it bends and stays there, so it’s more difficult to repair a damaged titanium nib than it is to repair a gold or steel one. And titanium doesn’t wick ink as well as gold or palladium; this can cause flow issues, especially with heavily saturated inks." (http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref/ttp/materials.htm)

[ReadyFireAim]

  On 5/5/2018 at 12:13 AM, Jamerelbe said:

 

Not disagreeing that the Noodler's (and FPR) nibs can produce impressive line variation - but the downward pressure required is much greater. Titanium is more "responsive" in the sense of requiring less downward pressure to spread the tines.

I write for as much as an hour a day with it and I'm fine.

Maybe if you wrote like people did one hundred years ago it would be an issue.

 

One hundred years ago they used dip pens.

They also "practiced" a lot more.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[Tom Heath]

Point to ponder.. In my opinion there isn't any such thing as the perfect nib..

 

Different strokes for different writing solutions really seems to fit here.

 

I like pens , I keep approx 50 of them with ink in them most times.

I love writing with each and every one of them and do rotate them.

 

I admire beautiful handwriting although my writing is not artistic I do admire those who have taken the time to develop that skill set.. I use to practice the art of Flourishing and still employ some of it.

 

Ever wonder why Esterbrook developed soo many pen nibs, because people had different jobs to do.

 

So keep investigating for your self advancement.

[strelnikoff]

  On 5/4/2018 at 1:32 AM, Jamerelbe said:

 

I have a few Bock titanium nibs (one EF, one F, one M) - and I agree, they're lovely writers with a fair degree of 'spring'. I'd hesitate to call them a flex nib, though - especially the EF, which (to my surprise) is stiffer than the other two.

 

The concern I've seen expressed re using Bock Titanium nibs for flex or semi-flex writing is that titanium (apparently) has less "spring-back" than gold or stainless steel - there's a much higher risk that you'll spring the tines permanently, and the metal is much harder to work with in order to straighten and realign.

 

All of the above may be errant nonsense - I haven't investigated it thoroughly myself, and have no desire to "push the envelope" with my own titanium nibs to find out. I'm happy to apply a little pressure to broaden the line - and yes, it's much more responsive than a Noodler's or FPR steel 'flex' nib - but I'd be really worried that anyone who tries to lay down a 2+mm line with one of these pens would find themselves looking at a very expensive failed experiment.

 

@Tony Belding, how far have you been game to push your titanium nibs? I confess I'm no expert - so I may just be repeating someone else's prejudice here...

 

There's something about titanium nibs, and a short comment which may or may not mean much to someone looking at them: almost all of the titanium nibs I've seen in pen store, those who were "tried" by potential buyers, had their tines bent. The material itself is beautiful though (at least to me) and goes well with darker pen designs.

[strelnikoff]

  On 5/4/2018 at 10:00 PM, sansenri said:

you mean... this one? (note, it's a long tines too)

 

 

actually even in these, as you described yourself, flexibility differs, and the finer tips tend to be more flex (F is more flex than M).

You are probably right that Aurora tweaked the production slightly to get more flex out of the new nibs, but the reason they were able to offer these nibs is probably because they still had the manufacturing equipment, because these nibs were still available on Aurora pens not too long ago. If you compare them, the shape is identical to the new flex. The sad story tells that more and more often Aurora kept receiving complaints from clients springing the nibs and misaligning the tines, as a consequence of there being less and less people capable of using these nibs.

To contrast this they moved to the shorter tines models! Now they are riding the renewed interest in flex nibs!

 

 

Have you seen new SCRIBO pens? One that has 14K gold flexible nib? They are slowly coming out to the market.

Made by ex-Omas employees, in Bologna

Website is still under construction though.

 

Pen review by Stephen Brown:

 

SCRIBO web site (still under construction): https://www.scritturabolognese.com/en/homepage-en/

 

If I were you, depending where you live - I'd go straight to their doors, knock and demand a pen ))

[sansenri]

thank you for the heads up I had not seen these yet.

I am not that far from Bologna (Milano) but not on their doorstep either. But I might check with a shop I know in Bologna.

I am wondering where the nibs come from.

To confirm the heading of this thread, flex or semiflex are becoming desirable again to a number of people and manufacturers (and resellers) seem at last to be realizing (after a great deal of talk about who cares for gold nibs and steel is just as good) that there is demand for some grade of flex in nibs and the best way to get it is use 14k gold....

Likely we'll never see the full flex nibs of the past, but at least leave us with some of it also in modern nibs!

There is some talk of Stipula working on a flex nib too. I read about it here and there but have not seen anything yet.

It looks as though they recovered a full set of vintage nib making machinery from the 30's.

Jowo is also out with a flex nib with longer tines which does have some real flex (fpnibs has it).

 

[strelnikoff]

  On 5/11/2018 at 7:38 PM, sansenri said:

thank you for the heads up I had not seen these yet.

I am not that far from Bologna (Milano) but not on their doorstep either. But I might check with a shop I know in Bologna.

I am wondering where the nibs come from.

To confirm the heading of this thread, flex or semiflex are becoming desirable again to a number of people and manufacturers (and resellers) seem at last to be realizing (after a great deal of talk about who cares for gold nibs and steel is just as good) that there is demand for some grade of flex in nibs and the best way to get it is use 14k gold....

Likely we'll never see the full flex nibs of the past, but at least leave us with some of it also in modern nibs!

There is some talk of Stipula working on a flex nib too. I read about it here and there but have not seen anything yet.

It looks as though they recovered a full set of vintage nib making machinery from the 30's.

Jowo is also out with a flex nib with longer tines which does have some real flex (fpnibs has it).

 

 

Allegedly, SCRIBO is manufacturing nibs with machines they got from Omas buyout. As they could not get the name rights, they got the machines (so I've heard). And if you look at the nibs, you'll see they are very very similar to the Omas nibs (in shape).

If Stipula comes with such nib - if they're using those machines from 1930's - then hooray! More the better. Prices may drop in the future (maybe). Then a true competition can start between manufacturers.

 

As for the full flex - give it some time, as more people write with flexible nibs, eventually some full-flex nibs (a la PINK nib from Waterman's) will arrive. Small batch, limited edition - doesn't matter.

 

What is very encouraging is - manufacturers are not slapping flexy nibs to plastic feeds any more, or not that much. They use ebonite and that is good. Hopefully they'll adjust the design accordingly.

My problem with Aurora 88's with flex nibs is/was that - yes the feed is ebonite, but the design is exactly the same as in their rigid nibbed pens. And that means - ink channel was appropriate for rigid nib, which requires less flow (more control of the flow). So in my Aurora 88s - Aniversario, we have cut out some material from the channel, to make some "space" for ink.

When you look at the vintage feeds, those ink channels are huge.

And I've bought new Aurora Optima (with flexible nib) - it works better than first 88's Aniversario. Perhaps they have worked on the feed, because lot of people were complaining about railroading in 88's. But still - it seems a bit "dryish" (Optima), but way less railroading than my first 88s.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Strelnikoff

[strelnikoff]

  On 5/11/2018 at 7:38 PM, sansenri said:

thank you for the heads up I had not seen these yet.

I am not that far from Bologna (Milano) but not on their doorstep either. But I might check with a shop I know in Bologna.

I am wondering where the nibs come from.

 

 

I've contacted them and from what I understand, they are not in full sales process yet. Only few selected sellers had limited editions made exclusively for them. So that store in Bologna may not have them. It's nearly summer, you could just go for a road trip

And if you do find couple of pens with 14K flexible nibs by Scribo - I'll chip in to buy one

[sansenri]

this is the google translation of an article on a Florentine site about Stipula, of July 20th 2017

 

"A research also in the field of the nibs that put them (Stipula) on the trail of Globus, the famous company from Bologna of which track had been completely lost. It is in 2013 that Stipula undertook the recovery of the artisan plant with which the historic Globus produced nibs for fountain pens since 1945. Founded at the end of World War II by Cav. Mario Cecchini, Globus produced with 188 handmade molds gold and steel foils for most of the great international brands of the writing of the time.

In addition to this, it was involved in supplying the world of specialized stationers and service centers throughout Italy with a vast catalog of adaptable nibs, by size and characteristics, to most of the reservoir pens of the time.

At the end of the 60s the Globus nibs ceased to be produced and Cav. Mario Cecchini put all his equipment in a cellar in the center of Bologna, where they were found by his sons only in 2012, a few years after his death. The restoration work, of great technical complexity, has committed Stipula for several years but then it finally resulted in a series of traditional and revolutionary concepts for the performance of writing that guarantee: the Sti-Flex 1945 is made with a Globus DNA , based on the criteria of metal rolling and lamination, which today are completely forgotten.

Thanks to the combination of thickness, cutting and refinement of the tip, the Sti-Flex 1945 nib can be considered a flexible nib of the late '30s and as such can fit fully into an ancient tradition of exaltation of the expressiveness of the fountain pen tip on paper.

The soul of the ancient nib is also found on the ideographic Ultrafine 1940, made of 14 KT gold with post-war material, but inspired by a protocol of the late '30s. The protocol dictated the characteristics of the nibs mounted on the fountain pens that the diplomatic representations of the Kingdom of Italy offered as gifts to the Asian counterparts and in particular to the representatives of the Japanese Empire, then allied in Italy. The nib, in fact, due to its fineness and the special shape of the tip, was considered particularly suitable for writing oriental ideograms."

[sansenri]

this is how Pineider is playing the game (the pen is La Grande Bellezza), since Dante del Vecchio is collaborating with them as advisor
(still I find these cut out nibs less convincing - the tines look interestingly long though)

 

 

by the way "la Grande Bellezza" is a film about Rome

Edited May 11, 2018 by sansenri

[strelnikoff]

  On 5/11/2018 at 9:10 PM, sansenri said:

this is the google translation of an article on a Florentine site about Stipula, of July 20th 2017

 

"A research also in the field of the nibs that put them (Stipula) on the trail of Globus, the famous company from Bologna of which track had been completely lost. It is in 2013 that Stipula undertook the recovery of the artisan plant with which the historic Globus produced nibs for fountain pens since 1945. Founded at the end of World War II by Cav. Mario Cecchini, Globus produced with 188 handmade molds gold and steel foils for most of the great international brands of the writing of the time.

 

In addition to this, it was involved in supplying the world of specialized stationers and service centers throughout Italy with a vast catalog of adaptable nibs, by size and characteristics, to most of the reservoir pens of the time.

 

At the end of the 60s the Globus nibs ceased to be produced and Cav. Mario Cecchini put all his equipment in a cellar in the center of Bologna, where they were found by his sons only in 2012, a few years after his death. The restoration work, of great technical complexity, has committed Stipula for several years but then it finally resulted in a series of traditional and revolutionary concepts for the performance of writing that guarantee: the Sti-Flex 1945 is made with a Globus DNA , based on the criteria of metal rolling and lamination, which today are completely forgotten.

 

Thanks to the combination of thickness, cutting and refinement of the tip, the Sti-Flex 1945 nib can be considered a flexible nib of the late '30s and as such can fit fully into an ancient tradition of exaltation of the expressiveness of the fountain pen tip on paper.

 

The soul of the ancient nib is also found on the ideographic Ultrafine 1940, made of 14 KT gold with post-war material, but inspired by a protocol of the late '30s. The protocol dictated the characteristics of the nibs mounted on the fountain pens that the diplomatic representations of the Kingdom of Italy offered as gifts to the Asian counterparts and in particular to the representatives of the Japanese Empire, then allied in Italy. The nib, in fact, due to its fineness and the special shape of the tip, was considered particularly suitable for writing oriental ideograms."

 

This is beyond exciting!!! Reading this... wow !!! I'm really looking forward... amazing story

Thank you for translation !!!