Flex Vs Non-Flex

[Lamyrada]

I do love the nails, and I like to write flex - from time to time - but just a few sentences. I had a Namiki with a nib that was supposed to give me wonderful flex, which I sold back,I currently have a 912 with a slightly springy nib which can flex a bit,...p on the right paper, it works well. I don’t use it as much and is un-inked 99% of the time...im not just a flex person...you can write normally with the flex nib, of course you can! But why pay more if you are not going to use flex? All I can Hear is disappointment with modern flex nibs, unless they are “twicked” to perform.

I get line variation with stubs, CIs, Obliques, music nibs, springy modern nibs. I think there is a romantic notion about flex, the allure of writing like the old times, that is perfectly understandable... when there was time to write at length on subjects and think deep thoughts (This is the devils advocate in me talking). Of course, nothing wrong with flex. It’s beautiful, it’s special and intriguing. I am just one year into fountain pens after a long hiatus, so this fact alone will invalidate any of my opinions for long time users and experts on fountain pens here. And of course, I think there is a use for flex for people which can really get the most of it. I just say; I have dabbled, I have used most of the techniques I have read about it and I have found, finally, that my most beuatiful (my sole opinion) writing with line variation comes from CIs, and gold vintage nibs from a brand of which I have 5 pens with different types of nibs. No more searching for flex.

From time to time I get to be interested in a new nib because maybe A brand model is known to have very god nibs, usually vintage.. but because they are expected to be smooth, very smooth. . I am, as someone told me recently, in “search of the nib”, not the pen. If I can have both in one pen, like , the pen is also appealing in looks or reliability, durability, style, filling system I like, etc... or for some other reason how delightful that could be! —- In my search, I concluded that the best outcome for me, derives from the types of nibs mentioned, which I enjoy a lot. Great nibs for me? Pilots, Pelikans, Pelikans, Pilots, again, Pilots, Pelikans, and surprisingly, Wing Sungs and Masuyama nibs.... It may and should be different for many others and that’s how it is for me. The Pelikans from the 50s are for me, the most delightful old, better than new, Smooth nibs, and they keep going and going - as someone said, with no special care...

[max dog]

MB Oblique broads and Pilot soft nibs are pretty awesome too.

[Corona688]

For me, as a lefty overwriter, flex is pretty much an expletive. I've never been able to write with flex nibs and I've bought countless lovely vintage pens that I've had to sell on because I couldn't handle the flex they turned out to have. I don't know if it's a leftie issue, but I avoid them like the plague. Give me a nice wide nail any time!

 

Fellow lefty here! Yes, definitely a left-handed issue. Our writing angle is abusive of pencils, let alone fountain pens. Try drawing a horizontal line across a page -- I bet you drew right-to-left without even thinking, it's just so obviously sensible, but our letters were made by right-handers and follow the path of maximum resistance. Standard cursive caligraphy is a graph of all the moments a right-hander's pen is moving the right direction to safely put pressure on the point.

 

To use a flex point, we either need to write vertically, or use an oblique pen to move the point closer to the right-handed position, or adopt a wacky penholding style which isn't a mirror-image of a righthanded one.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Corona688

[tonybelding]

All I can Hear is disappointment with modern flex nibs, unless they are “twicked” to perform.

 

If I might ask, what did you think of my writing sample back on page 2 of this thread? Was that disappointing to you? Because I thought it was pretty good. And that's a current production, off-the-shelf nib employed with my normal everyday handwriting.

[ReadyFireAim]

All I can Hear is disappointment with modern flex nibs, unless they are “twicked” to perform.

I think Nathan had a really good idea when he did the Creaper nib but he just didn't take it far enough.

 

Someday, someone will come out with a stainless nib very similar to the Creaper that will change everything.

[senzen]

I have yet to try a flex nib, like with shimmery inks I'm too much of a contrarian to follow the herd, which doesn't preclude me from discovering them on my own. The second psychological aspect is the tribe:

 

"I don't see the difference between nails and ballpoint pens"

"I see no use for flex".

 

Really? As has been noted before by many others: a fountain pen glides, while a ballpoint pen is dragged, it's a big difference in how relaxed or how painful writing is, and how much as a medium it facilitates or hinders your thought process. This "us vs them" mentality seems to obstruct a more enlightened view.

 

That brings us to a third aspect, cultural differences: writing in Kanji seems different from western writing, particularly cursive, so yeah, you'd need a different tool, but it doesn't make one tool superior to the other. Expand your horizons; or just grow up.

 

So there seems to be huge cultural baggage, only exacerbated by the web, while the answer is simple: try it out and make up your own !!! mind, stop trying to feel superior and give the herd a rest.

[Bo Bo Olson]

One of the problems as I see it is the super vague term 'flex' pen....

Semi-flex has some flex....as it says....almost flex. It is not a real fancy writing pen, though if you press the nib it will write some, but not easily as a supereflex or even a maxi-semi-flex.

 

A semi-flex will give that old fashioned fountain pen flair, with out doing anything.....and I've never found it slower than a nail to write with.

Well, after one stops maxing the nib on every stroke from being Ham Fisted.....took me three months to make my Hand lighter. But that didn't slow down my chicken scratch.

 

Being Ham Fisted when coming from Nails is normal for most of us.

Those with very light Hands have to work at a semi-flex to get any line variation. .... so a happy medium is to be slightly Ham Fisted.

A good poster said, Stub and CI are 100% line variation. Semi-Flex is line variation 'On Demand'.

 

""""Sure, a 800 might not be a daily beater back then, as Montblanc 149 wasn't either (and even that I doubt, since 50's MB 146 -which was their "de luxe" daily beater, while shorter than a Pelikan 400///***/// (No...about as long as a 400NN though.)

is wider, more or less to the point of a modern day Pelikan 800) but, whatever the case, an 800 size with a nib the quality of those from the 400 would have been something to see.""""

 

"50-60's 146 is a medium large pen, like a P-51 or a modern 600.

Those made after 1970 are Large pens. I have both and the medium-long one has not only better balance but a semi-flex nib. The '70's-80 one I have....from dated the shape of the feed....from Max's feed listings of MB. It is also only a regular flex. (Not the later 'Springy" nice tine bend but only 2X tine spread of the modern MB.) I find the Large 146 to be a lighter and more nimble pen than the 800.

 

I have three '50's MB's one a nice semi-flex, the other my only half way between semi-flex and a maxi-semi-flex, I finally lucked into with my '50's 146. All but that rolled gold MB 742 of my 27 semi-flex and 16 maxi-semi-flex pens clump together....with no other semi-flex so easy, but not a maxi, nor a maxi so hard. So that 742 is as you wish a semi+ or a maxi-. ....still a nice nib, but it wasn't exactly the maxi I desired from MB in I had maxi's from other companies.

 

Yes, it is sad one can't put a semi-flex nib on an 800...or not screw in.

I had the pleasure of being able to play around with one of those nice springy W. Germany 800 nibs that are a bit springier than the later '90's regular flex and 90-now 200's. I also have a W.Germany 200. That W. Germany nib is very nice. I'd buy only an 800 with that nib.

It has a real nice 'bounce' to it's glide. :wallbash:I find my new 1005 easier to get around with than expected ............so have moved a W.Germany 800 a bit up the list.

 

A passed poster who was very knowledgeable, advised me to not chase the W. Germany nibs for my '90-97 400, in I was spoiled with the semi&maxi-semi-flex of the '50-65 era. She was right.

 

It did take me a while, but eventually I got to like regular flex nibs....they are better for shading, than the wetter semi-flex.

I like regular flex semi-vintage, 400, Celebry, 381 or 200's more than the fatter, blobbier double kugal/ball semi-nail, 400/600; they have a nice ride and a clean line.

.... As a semi-nail, the new 400/600 has to be butter smooth.....it's ride is not a comfortable IMO as slightly thinner regular flex. But I also like the 'good and smooth' feel of paper under the nib (not after toothy=pencil feel) ......but being lazy, never will 'waste' so much time trying for too smooth for slick paper of butter smooth, when I smooth drag of generations in the dark of a drawer away. (iridium rust)

I do of course have some butter smooth nibs.......but I don't go out of my way to find them.

I can see butter smooth on laid or linen effect paper, as where I'd see that as best....I forgot about PP paper, or 80g copy paper.

I do have nail and semi-nail nibs....just don't see any use for me, when I have others.

 

I do wish everyone had at least one semi-flex ....and not in narrower than hell either.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Honeybadgers]

I think Nathan had a really good idea when he did the Creaper nib but he just didn't take it far enough.

 

Someday, someone will come out with a stainless nib very similar to the Creaper that will change everything.

 

That someone will probably be whoever finds the machine that stamped out old japanese shiro nibs. They are everything anyone would ever want in a flexible steel nib

[Corona688]

I have yet to try a flex nib, like with shimmery inks I'm too much of a contrarian to follow the herd, which doesn't preclude me from discovering them on my own.

 

By and large they're unpopular for writing. Artists and calligraphers love them to the degree there's cheap, easily-available product lines going back a century or more, plus new takes on the idea imported from overseas.

 

So it may not be a culture of opposition so much as a culture clash. Writing for utilitarianism vs writing for art vs random lines on the page. Printing vs cursive.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Corona688

[inkstainedruth]

Most of my pens are firm to rigid. Even the vintage ones. But I don't use the term "nail" in a derogatory sense. Because, for instance, the Cross Solo I bought from the estate of a friend is a nail. But a very smooth writer. The only truly "super-flex" pen I have (using Bo Bo Olsen's extensive terminology) would be the prototype Desiderata Daedalus. And that pen? It had a Zebra G nib on it that tore into pretty much every paper I tried the pen on, even Rhodia (it worked on Clairefontaine, and that was about it...). I've since gotten to try some other Desiderata pens and I apparently just got a bum nib on mine, so some century or other I'll see about getting a replacement Zebra G nib. Or the other one suggested in the paperwork (forget if that was Hunt or Brause).

Of course, if I'm going to do fancy penmanship or calligraphy, the odds are good that I'm NOT going to be using a pointed pen hand -- I like uncial well enough, and I'm pretty good at it without a lot of practice to get back into the swing of things, the way I would be having to do with Gothic or Italic or (shudder) Rustic Roman....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Honeybadgers]

By and large they're unpopular for writing. Artists and calligraphers love them to the degree there's cheap, easily-available product lines going back a century or more, plus new takes on the idea imported from overseas.

 

So it may not be a culture of opposition so much as a culture clash. Writing for utilitarianism vs writing for art vs random lines on the page. Printing vs cursive.

 

 

I think Brian Goulet pointed it out pretty well, there has been a huge (relatively, they'll never approach how big they were when the fountain pen was literally how people put thoughts into words) upswing in retaking the concept of handwriting as not just a utilitarian form of transmitting information. Sure, my patient charts are fairly scribbled, because they have to be shredded at the end of the call. But when I am writing notes, I find that when I take the time to really draw my letters (and my main notes, outside of math, are done with a flex nib) I find that I just remember things better. There are a few people who don't know any better happily calling for the death of cursive and handwriting in general in education, but time and time again, studies show that when we take the time to write things down (and rewrite them) we learn staggeringly more effectively than if we simply read or typed the words. You're forming so many more neuronal connections when you write than when you type or tap.

 

And handwriting itself is coming back because it's such a deeply personal and unique thing. I've gotten so many people back into writing just showing them my own handwriting and giving them a platinum preppy. And I don't even think my script is great (it's a mishmash of modern cursive and spencerian)

[zslane]

I don't feel that fountain pens are the ideal vehicle for promoting a large-scale return to handwriting, at least not in terms of everyday writing. They are just too fussy for that. A good rollerball is much more convenient and puts down a nice wet inkline just like a fountain pen. I'm learning this as I find myself reaching for my rollerballs rather than my Safaris whenever I just want to write down some quick notes, or even a letter.

 

Where a fountain pen really shines is with more stylistic and artistic modes of writing (basically calligraphy), where taking your time is an affordable luxury. In those cases, stubs, italics, and flex nibs are going to yield far more expressive results. Consequently, I don't really see much utilitarian value in nails or even "soft" FPs.

 

Since most folks who display a willingness to do more handwriting are unlikely to dive into calligraphy (and won't care about ink color all that much), they would be better served, I feel, by being directed towards a really good rollerball pen than a fountain pen. For them, a fountain pen would most likely just end up being something that looks nice on their desk.

[pajaro]

I don't feel that fountain pens are the ideal vehicle for promoting a large-scale return to handwriting, at least not in terms of everyday writing. They are just too fussy for that. A good rollerball is much more convenient and puts down a nice wet inkline just like a fountain pen. I'm learning this as I find myself reaching for my rollerballs rather than my Safaris whenever I just want to write down some quick notes, or even a letter.

 

Where a fountain pen really shines is with more stylistic and artistic modes of writing (basically calligraphy), where taking your time is an affordable luxury. In those cases, stubs, italics, and flex nibs are going to yield far more expressive results. Consequently, I don't really see much utilitarian value in nails or even "soft" FPs.

 

Since most folks who display a willingness to do more handwriting are unlikely to dive into calligraphy (and won't care about ink color all that much), they would be better served, I feel, by being directed towards a really good rollerball pen than a fountain pen. For them, a fountain pen would most likely just end up being something that looks nice on their desk.

 

I have some rollerballs, and a few decent ones, Montblanc 163R, Parker Sonnet, Sheaffer Targa, and most of the refills I have tried don't last too long, and they feel more like a ballpoint. I use them, but I prefer ballpoints of the same makes and models.

[Drawing61]

Interesting exchange. Reminds me of a family Thanksgiving dinner with the stalwart Nails and the passionate Flexes going after it and getting red in the face. After the meal, full of good food and good will we recognize we're all part of the same family. We all love fountain pens.

[Honeybadgers]

I don't feel that fountain pens are the ideal vehicle for promoting a large-scale return to handwriting, at least not in terms of everyday writing. They are just too fussy for that. A good rollerball is much more convenient and puts down a nice wet inkline just like a fountain pen. I'm learning this as I find myself reaching for my rollerballs rather than my Safaris whenever I just want to write down some quick notes, or even a letter.

 

Where a fountain pen really shines is with more stylistic and artistic modes of writing (basically calligraphy), where taking your time is an affordable luxury. In those cases, stubs, italics, and flex nibs are going to yield far more expressive results. Consequently, I don't really see much utilitarian value in nails or even "soft" FPs.

 

Since most folks who display a willingness to do more handwriting are unlikely to dive into calligraphy (and won't care about ink color all that much), they would be better served, I feel, by being directed towards a really good rollerball pen than a fountain pen. For them, a fountain pen would most likely just end up being something that looks nice on their desk.

 

I can't stand the feel of a rollerball. I don't think they are as universally loved as some think, as preferences are as personal as the handwriting itself, and many, many people (myself included) prefer tactile feedback, and I can't stand the uncanny smoothness of a rollerball.

 

I also think you're looking at it from an early 2000's/1990's perspective. People don't just give each other writing tools anymore as flippantly, when we were still hot in the midst of the digital revolution, where the trend was towards speed, convenience, and modern technology. Things have gone straight backwards for an increasing number of folks. Like I said, the personalization of the writing tool is as important to many people as the writing itself. Of course, we're still far in the niche market for pens over about $50, but I have given a lot of platinum preppies to classmates only to find them either still using said preppy (those cartridges last for-effing-ever in a F nib) or having upgraded to something like a safari by the next school year.

 

Also, I don't even recommend the safari to people anymore. The quality control and overall fit/finish on them is pretty sub-par when compared to china's offerings these days. I give people a preppy and still recommend a pilot metro as a next step (I wish the prera was priced less stupidly, that would be such a good pen in the $20-25 range, which is what it costs outside the US)

 

If you think a rollerball feels best in the hand and on the page, by all means, keep using them. They come with some cool inks and are ludicrously smooth. But I am seeing more and more people my age (20's-30's) that have picked up a fountain pen for the first time and are really learning what makes them so special. Even here in the world of paramedics, there are at least five people at my company, not including myself, who daily carry a fountain pen on duty.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Honeybadgers

[Honeybadgers]

Interesting exchange. Reminds me of a family Thanksgiving dinner with the stalwart Nails and the passionate Flexes going after it and getting red in the face. After the meal, full of good food and good will we recognize we're all part of the same family. We all love fountain pens.

 

 

Except for that weird uncle who writes with his upside down. That guy is wrong.

[jmnav]

I don't feel that fountain pens are the ideal vehicle for promoting a large-scale return to handwriting, at least not in terms of everyday writing. They are just too fussy for that. A good rollerball is much more convenient and puts down a nice wet inkline just like a fountain pen.

 

I suppose it depends on your experience. I started using fountain pens more or less by the time first rollers appeared (about early to mid 80's). Back then, I found rollers almost as good as fountain pens in terms of writing experience (back then I only had experience using hard nibs: even today I don't find rollers to stand a chance against a good semi-flex nib)... but much more expensive in running costs, so I settled on pens... and this has been the case to date. It might be the case that if I were doing that choice today, I'd go for rollers, as they are now much cheaper than then, but since I never felt fountain pens to be any less convenient than rollers, I've never felt any pressure to reassess my decision.

 

Now, about this issue:

1- I went for fountain pens precisely because I was forced to write too fast in school (it was because a specific teacher) and I found fountain pens so much convenient than ballpens for that, so I just can't get my head around those saying that fountain pens are not for quick writing.

2- In my experience, flexible nibs allow for slow, calligraph-like writing, but they don't demand writing that way. Therefore, I also don't buy the argument that flexible nibs are too demanding, so not tuned for quick notes. In fact, I don't use flexible (well, not full wet noodles, but semi-flexes as much flexible as possible) nibs for its calligraphic abilities but because I enjoy the feedback they offer on just "normal" cursive. In general terms, my hand writing looks almost the same when I use a, say, Parker 51 than when using a semiflex from the 30's - 50's, it's just I find using the latters much more gratifying.

Edited June 29, 2018 by jmnav

[sansenri]

 

 

I think Brian Goulet pointed it out pretty well, there has been a huge (relatively, they'll never approach how big they were when the fountain pen was literally how people put thoughts into words) upswing in retaking the concept of handwriting as not just a utilitarian form of transmitting information. Sure, my patient charts are fairly scribbled, because they have to be shredded at the end of the call. But when I am writing notes, I find that when I take the time to really draw my letters (and my main notes, outside of math, are done with a flex nib) I find that I just remember things better. There are a few people who don't know any better happily calling for the death of cursive and handwriting in general in education, but time and time again, studies show that when we take the time to write things down (and rewrite them) we learn staggeringly more effectively than if we simply read or typed the words. You're forming so many more neuronal connections when you write than when you type or tap.

 

And handwriting itself is coming back because it's such a deeply personal and unique thing. I've gotten so many people back into writing just showing them my own handwriting and giving them a platinum preppy. And I don't even think my script is great (it's a mishmash of modern cursive and spencerian)

 

 

I agree very much on this.

In whichever way you do the writing, handwriting is an exceptional way of remembering and learning.

I often handwrite schemes of things that I need to understand, remember, explain to others.

I can see my handwritten scheme in my mind, I cannot do the same thing so easily on a PC produced slide.

I am very much convinced that when you write your attention focuses repeatedly on what you write, not just the meaning, but the image of it in your mind. Looking at your own written notes is dramatically different from looking at your own notes printed on paper from a PC, recognition, and remembering the reasons behind what is written is so much faster.

 

In addition, I am a fountain pen user since childhood, writing notes with a fountain pen is natural for me (I can understand it might not be for others) and adds pleasure to the task.

[Honeybadgers]

 

 

I agree very much on this.

In whichever way you do the writing, handwriting is an exceptional way of remembering and learning.

I often handwrite schemes of things that I need to understand, remember, explain to others.

I can see my handwritten scheme in my mind, I cannot do the same thing so easily on a PC produced slide.

I am very much convinced that when you write your attention focuses repeatedly on what you write, not just the meaning, but the image of it in your mind. Looking at your own written notes is dramatically different from looking at your own notes printed on paper from a PC, recognition, and remembering the reasons behind what is written is so much faster.

 

In addition, I am a fountain pen user since childhood, writing notes with a fountain pen is natural for me (I can understand it might not be for others) and adds pleasure to the task.

 

It's a well understood aspect of neuroscience. You form associative connections relating to subject matter when you write it down. You are trying to remember it, and the process of writing it forms associated neural connections. It's the same reason that you should try to replicate the circumstances you learned the information while taking a test (if you only do homework or sit in class while chewing a particular flavor of gum, chewing that gum during the exam will improve your score)

 

It's also why it depresses me that we are phasing out cursive (or any sort of handwriting classes in general) in schools. Kids that learn to write well, learn better when they write. Their hand/eye coordination improves, too.

 

Now the problem is explaining that to our educational system that is fixated on the latest and greatest technology, adding more students for fewer teachers, and blind fixation on kids passing standardized tests. We need to refocus our educational system (in the US at least) on learning and critical thinking, not memorization. Part of teaching someone HOW to learn is giving them the tools and understanding of those tools necessary for the system to work.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Honeybadgers

[Bo Bo Olson]

Zslane,

A long time ago, when Rollerballs first came in, they were better than the then ball points, being easier to write with. (one didn't have to plow the south 40 with out the mule of then ball points) I will admit I only had two roller balls....and that ages ago.

 

Now though, IMO, the gel and hybred ink cartridges in a ball point are much better than a roller ball. They are 'softer' to write with....than both the old roller ball and much easier than the classic ball point. The gel and hybred can also be held behind the big index knuckle. Which you could not do with the then ball points and roller balls.

 

But a fountain pen properly held, behind the big index knuckle, glides best, on it's small puddle of ink. And as nice to write with as a gel or hybred ball point is, any half way good....and it don't take much to be half way good, fountain pen is easier to write with.