Flex Vs Non-Flex

[Bo Bo Olson]

I challenge you bet (with one exception). I bet most pens were made before 1970 (probably, before 1960) and most pens before 1960 which were not explicitly nominated "manifold" were at least "mushy", and a great percentage (IMHO) are at least stiffy semiflexes.

No, Eversharp made superflex nibs in the '30's, semi-flex in the '40s'. Early '50's Snorkels with semi-flex are rare. I think most nibs that were not manifold, were regular flex....then a normal issue. the P-75 is semi-nail.

 

The one exception is the Parker 51, which is famed as the most sold fountain pen ever, was a paradigmatic example of "nail nib" (whitout even a shadow of derogation here) and that probably can shift the statistic itself alone.

 

Heck! I just gifted my wife an early Parker 75, ciselle pattern, which comes from the mid-late sixties and, while I expected it to be nail, both by the epoch and the shape of the nib, it resulted quite flexible! OH!!! nope I wouldn't cvall it that, semi-nail will when mashed go 2 X a light down stroke.....but then again, I own only one.....a Sterling Silver Cicelé. For a metal pen light, and back when I was a 20 pen 'noobie' one of my three perfectly balanced pens...posted of course. Standard pens need to be posted not only to be long enough but for the grand balance they can have in the higher quality makes.

I had to send back a Thuya (brown and black)...they guy sent a nib on it...and wanted it back...teh price i paid was no nib cheap. It two was semi-nail. But I am not an expert on it.

What it's probably true is that most post-1970 pens are nails -but post-1970 pens are almost surely a minority on the whole of fountain pens ever produced.

I don't collect US pens, but Pelikan went over to semi-nails on the 400/600 in '98....nail on teh 800 that year. I'm pretty sure you can get regular flex Sheaffer pens from the 60-70's at least.

 

I don't think so. I already stated that, i.e. the Parker 51 sports a nail nib as much as anything, and I don't think there will be many people thinking badly of that pen (I certainly don't). I do think that "nail nib" can become derogatory when it's not expected / it's thougth it shouldn't be that way. For instance, I own a 50's Pelikan 400 with an excelent semi-flex nib (if only Pelikan had made a pen the size of its current M800 back then!!!). Folks still wrote all day back then....so for that the 800 is not light and nimble.

 

Then you compare it with Pelikan's current offer, the M400, which looks basically the same, and yes, the first thing that comes to my mind with regards to their nibs is "but... it's a nail!!!" and, yes, in this case I say it on the most derogatory manner....I rate them as semi-nails.............I do have a D nib...now that is indeed the nail's nail.

If one goes back to the days of the Esterbrook, well into the '60's they had manifold and regular flex and a hard semi-flex. Lots of different screw in nibs.

As far as I can remember my ...just checked my wife's Wearever...she likes turquoise...and don't use it at all. I'd call it a semi-nail from tine spread, but it has good tine bend...so is more a 'Springy' nib. Surprised me the tine spread was only 2X. I remember them as regular flex. I had 3 pre war and 3 post war ones, I gave to a guy in in England for some repair work.

I had 'checked' the nibs on my thumbnail of course....but didn't mark them down as in my mind as nails and put the pens away..... They were top of the line Wearever.... good second tier pens...just 'normal'....which was often regular flex back in the day.

Had they been nails they'd ended up under the bed keeping that Townsend company.

[jhataway]

Thanks to all for the good discussions. So, one thing I have learned is a full description for nibs going from nail (or rigid, manifold), semi-nail, regular flex, semi-flex, full flex, super flex, and wet noodle. This is one reason for the increasing popularity of fountain pens I think. Another reason is the large selection of inks available today. When I was young, you could get black, blue, or blue-black ink mainly by Sheaffer or Parker (my parents always used Sheaffer blue).

[jmnav]

I challenge you bet (with one exception). I bet most pens were made before 1970 (probably, before 1960) and most pens before 1960 which were not explicitly nominated "manifold" were at least "mushy", and a great percentage (IMHO) are at least stiffy semiflexes. The one exception is the Parker 51, which is famed as the most sold fountain pen ever, was a paradigmatic example of "nail nib" (whitout even a shadow of derogation here) and that probably can shift the statistic itself alone.

Oh, despite being very interesting, I forgot another clear exception on nibs designed to be nails (in a not derogatory manner) and very sucessful in what they did: the whole Sheaffer's line of triumph / in-laid nibs (Statesman, PFM...): Bo Bo Olson's quote made me remember about them.

Edited January 27, 2018 by jmnav

[senzen]

For me it's a question of don't knock it till you've tried it, I don't think any of my 22 pens have any flex or softness (so nail = good), but then what I love about fountain pen is that feeling of writing on a micro pillow of ink between the nib and the paper, which requires zero pressure. If a flex nib would still require zero pressure and make me write (slightly) even more deliberately that might be a good thing, since writing fast takes me back to indecipherable hieroglyphs. I would have zero time for railroading, so for instance Pilot's FA nibs are probably out for me.

[Bluey]

I would have zero time for railroading, so for instance Pilot's FA nibs are probably out for me.

 

I wouldn't worry about that. Even for doing some extreme flourishes they don't railroad, and for writing normally with plenty of flexy flair they never railroad. Same for super fast writing.

[jmnav]

(if only Pelikan had made a pen the size of its current M800 back then!!!). Folks still wrote all day back then....so for that the 800 is not light and nimble.

 

One would think you had a case... till one remembers that just at the same time Pelikan's biggest pen was the 400 (and top of line, gold luxuries apart), Montblanc had its 149, Soennecken its Praesident, etc. And a Parker 51 is also longer than the 400 -much longer for practical purposes, because of its hooded nib, and older than that you can find Parker Big Reds, big Dorics, Matador 998, Waterman's Hundred Year 'de Luxe', and, and, and....

 

Sure, a 800 might not be a daily beater back then, as Montblanc 149 wasn't either (and even that I doubt, since 50's MB 146 -which was their "de luxe" daily beater, while shorter than a Pelikan 400 is wider, more or less to the point of a modern day Pelikan 800) but, whatever the case, an 800 size with a nib the quality of those from the 400 would have been something to see.

Edited January 28, 2018 by jmnav

[Christopher Godfrey]

We have come a long way with this thread, which has, indeed, gone slightly off the rails, as jhataway points out (the OP) and, although Bo Bo is the one who has used the "nail" word until it has now become definitive (in that sense), he -- and everyone else -- has not given you any idea why "nail". Your flag shows what I take to the be the Swedish crowns (?), so you may not be familiar with the expression "hard as nails"? You might use it to describe a tough businessman, for example; someone who is very...inflexible!

 

I have to disagree with tonybelding (with respect) who thinks that vintage flex nibs are not robust! My vintage Pelikans from 1940s, my Watermans from 1920s/1930s are all perfectly robust in my opinion: I consider them all to be tough instruments and I use them regularly; but then flex is what I love about nibs.

[Bluey]

My vintage Pelikans from 1940s, my Watermans from 1920s/1930s are all perfectly robust in my opinion

 

At a local pen show I tried a vintage Pelikan from not much later than that, and in my hands in front of the seller, the tipping promptly crumbed in front of our eyes when I put pen to paper to flex. "That shouldn't have happened", said she. Except it did.

Not very robust at all.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Bluey

[Inkling13]

"""There is no such thing as an unmodified FA. Thats is the way they come with the shoulders cut out. Soft nibs are standard options from Pilot on the 74 (SF, SFM, SM) so they are not modified. Modification means taking something and changing the way they normally appear. None of these nibs are modified!"""

 

Yes they are!

At the factory a man or a machine grinds the half moons into the nib....there for modifying the nib, before it leaves the factory.

Half a decade ago or so, that grinding of the nibs so half moons were in the Pilots was new. Folks like PB started doing the same thing to other nibs.

 

They are as modified as the Ahab Mod, except they were modified from stock nibs in the factory.

 

I don't have to go try one......I can see little half moons....which is a modification of normal nibs....be that ground or stamped; the basic nib has been modified. It ... has ..... little .... half ..... moons ....in ...it!

By modified, i suppose your definition is different, than say modification of a stock nib. FA nibs are indeed different, without the routine Pilot engravings, so you can say that they have not been "modified" even by your definition. It was never a stock Pilot nib that was later changed, they were made that way. The only nib to be nearly free of engravings.

[jmnav]

At a local pen show I tried a vintage Pelikan from not much later than that, and in my hands in front of the seller, the tipping promptly crumbed in front of our eyes when I put pen to paper to flex. "That shouldn't have happened", said she. Except it did.

Not very robust at all.

 

Well, I don't think this can be taken as demonstration.

 

The fact is the there's a lot of people using those pens on a daily basis (I own and use Montblancs, Watermans, Pelikans from the 30-50's without any special care) and I don't see them being any less robust than their modern day counterparts. Paraphrasing Yoda, "we'll see how these modern pens look like when they are also 60-70 year old".

[mana]

 

Well, I don't think this can be taken as demonstration.

 

The fact is the there's a lot of people using those pens on a daily basis (I own and use Montblancs, Watermans, Pelikans from the 30-50's without any special care) and I don't see them being any less robust than their modern day counterparts. Paraphrasing Yoda, "we'll see how these modern pens look like when they are also 60-70 year old".

Exactly. I have had about 30+ vintage Pelikans pass through my hands and I currently have about 17 or so post war pens including 10 x 100N, a 101N, 400, two 140, a 500NN and two 400NN. And some others, oh, 120s... I haven't had any problems with pens that have been cared for (as in, not neglected or abused). There were of course some that had their materials fail such as cork seals that had shrunk due to being allowed to dry out or celluloid barrels that had shrunk or had deteriorated to the point of crumbling from merely handling the pen (very much a problem with older celluloid pens especially if they have not been stored away from heat etc.).

 

Some of this can of course be attributed to the fact that the ones we have now have survived use and storage those 60-70 years. The ones that were to fail have most likely done so. Thus, a nib tipping that broke off when put to stress is somewhat of an outlier and not indicative of a categorical problem with pre- and post war to late 50s era Pelikans found in this day and age.

 

And comparing them to modern pens... well, I suspect that if I were to drop a modern "precious resin" pen and a 400NN from the 50s to a hardwood floor from the same height the results would be the same for both... not good for either. When it comes to everyday use they are very much as robust (or even more so) than some modern pens. Of course advances in materials sciences have come but if we are comparing pens made out of similar materials then the build quality of older Pelikans stands out due to the virtue of being top notch.

Edited January 31, 2018 by mana

[tonybelding]

I have to disagree with tonybelding (with respect) who thinks that vintage flex nibs are not robust! My vintage Pelikans from 1940s, my Watermans from 1920s/1930s are all perfectly robust in my opinion: I consider them all to be tough instruments and I use them regularly; but then flex is what I love about nibs.

 

I wasn't referring to the nibs so much as the pens themselves. If you go all the way back to the 20s and 30s, which was the heyday of full-flex nibs, then you're looking at feeds which are not as well-developed and reliable, you're looking at rubber sacs which are prone to fail, pistons that have hardened and shrunk, and plastics (including celluloid and hard rubber) which shrink and crack over 80+ years of time, to say nothing of wear and tear from actual use. Compare that with buying (for example) a brand-new-with-warranty Karas Kustoms Ink with a Bock Titan nib, and there's no question which is going to be more dependable.

[Honeybadgers]

By modified, i suppose your definition is different, than say modification of a stock nib. FA nibs are indeed different, without the routine Pilot engravings, so you can say that they have not been "modified" even by your definition. It was never a stock Pilot nib that was later changed, they were made that way. The only nib to be nearly free of engravings.

 

 

I agree. That's like saying a nib that is hand tuned before even seeing a pen (which all of pilot's gold nibs are) is modified.

 

Sometimes the semantics drive me nuts.

 

Here. have some flexy boredom with a zebra G nib in a noodlers konrad.

 

[ac12]

A nail is just another reference to a non-flex nib.

There is nothing wrong with that.

I use nail nibs all the time.

 

If I want flex, I pull out the dip pen and an oblique holder, and do it right.

[Lamyrada]

This is my experience.

I've had several vintage flex nibs, which I think are the only real flex pens/nibs based on what I have read on comments about modern flex. Curiosity took me to shed a few dollars to acquire them, even though I had started with a cheap $20 modern flex pen that many people get to write with in a very flexy mode and I couldn't. SO I moved on to the vintage flex ... My disappointment is great, because IMHO:

 

1- One has to be an expert to write with them

2- One has to spend a lot of time and tons of patience to learn how to use them

3- Then what? Are you going to write an occasional letter with a flex mode handwriting?

IMO: not practical on a day to day basis

 

NAILS, OMG !

They are practical, you can write the whole day with them, no issues... you have a variety of nibs that can fit on that category, you can draw with them, you can... do whatever with them. You don't have to learn much or invest much of your time learning anything special, they just work on a natural way. Maybe not if you never held one and wrote at least with one of them in the past - meaning; you are very young and can only use "roller balls"- If that is the case, stick to the roller balls.

 

 

I have two Waterman's with 2 great flex nibs; one is a fine nib to M flex, the other broad to M (but I cannot get what the seller sample demo showed ! ) --- I had fun with them and are now in a case, forgotten. I can take them out once in a while and always get to the conclusion: NOT FOR ME. Sometime in the future you may see them here, on the classifieds section. I hope.

[Lamyrada]

This is my experience.

I've had several vintage flex nibs, which I think are the only real flex pens/nibs based on what I have read on comments about modern flex. Curiosity took me to shed a few dollars to acquire them, even though I had started with a cheap $20 modern flex pen that many people get to write with in a very flexy mode and I couldn't. SO I moved on to the vintage flex ... My disappointment is great, because IMHO:

 

1- One has to be an expert to write with them

2- One has to spend a lot of time and tons of patience to learn how to use them

3- Then what? Are you going to write an occasional letter with a flex mode handwriting?

IMO: not practical on a day to day basis

 

NAILS, OMG !

They are practical, you can write the whole day with them, no issues... you have a variety of nibs that can fit on that category, you can draw with them, you can... do whatever with them. You don't have to learn much or invest much of your time learning anything special, they just work on a natural way. Maybe not if you never held one and wrote at least with one of them in the past - meaning; you are very young and can only use "roller balls"- If that is the case, stick to the roller balls.

 

 

I have two Waterman's with 2 great flex nibs; one is a fine nib to M flex, the other broad to M (but I cannot get what the seller sample demo showed ! ) --- I had fun with them and are now in a case, forgotten. I can take them out once in a while and always get to the conclusion: NOT FOR ME. Sometime in the future you may see them here, on the classifieds section. I hope.

Oh, Yes, and I tried dip nibs. I had some fine and very nice writing flex nibs that one has to replace from time to time depending on use.... I don't need the mess nor I have anything worth showing, or reading that I should or could write with a dip nib. So, they were out also.

 

Derogatory? It seems it is spoken like that sometimes, its like what is worth is the nib that is difficult to master and with which some people with artistic skills and inclination can master to produce works of art. Not everyone is that capable!

[ReadyFireAim]

IMO: not practical on a day to day basis

 

Speed comes with practice.

Line variation also comes without conscious effort.

 

If you do an hour per day for a year, you will likely have it.

Start with an easy nib like the Creaper (bottom)

Move on to the Zebra-G & then the Leonardt Principal.

 

Last stop is the Brouse Rose and when you can write with it at regular speed, the flex will just happen.

And one last thing...

Forget about gold nibs.

They're about useless. (IMO)

Edited February 4, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[Lamyrada]

Speed comes with practice.

Line variation also comes without conscious effort.

 

If you do an hour per day for a year, you will likely have it.i

Start with an easy nib like the Creaper (bottom)

Move on to the Zebra-G & then the Leonardt Principal.

 

Last stop is the Brouse Rose and when you can write with it at regular speed, the flex will just happen.

IMG_0722.JPG

And one last thing...

Forget about gold nibs.

They're about useless. (IMO)

 

I used a Brouse Rose, super exquisite nib. But as I said. Not my cup of tea. I still think that is not for everyone. I have never practiced anything for a month!imagine a year!

 

I admire those that achieve the goal of mastering flex! I enjoy the videos and the writing, but that’s all, folks. Requires great skill.

[max dog]

My disappointment is great, because IMHO:

 

1- One has to be an expert to write with them

2- One has to spend a lot of time and tons of patience to learn how to use them

3- Then what? Are you going to write an occasional letter with a flex mode handwriting?

IMO: not practical on a day to day basis

 

I have two Waterman's with 2 great flex nibs; one is a fine nib to M flex, the other broad to M (but I cannot get what the seller sample demo showed ! ) --- I had fun with them and are now in a case, forgotten. I can take them out once in a while and always get to the conclusion: NOT FOR ME. Sometime in the future you may see them here, on the classifieds section. I hope.

Writing flex does not require you to be an expert at all as I found out.

I found Steven Browns video extremely helpful in learning how to write flex.

Go to the 12 minutes point of the video and just practice flexing on the down strokes. That is all it takes, getting use to pressing on the down strokes only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6qUXPEfPA

 

I had my Pilot Falcon for a few years, but never really made use of it's capabilities until I got a dip pen (try a Speedball dip pen with a #101 Imperial or #103 Mapping nib) and practiced Steven Browns technique for about an hour. Once I got the feel of flexing with a dip pen, getting line variation in my Pilot Falcon, and later my Waterman's 52V and FA nibs were easy. If anything, the dip flex nib showed me what a true flex nib can do, and what the limitations are with fountain pen flex nibs like the Falcon, FA, and vintage 52 nibs.

 

Btw, if you get a dip pen remember to burn away the factoey oils on the nib with a candle or toothpaste, otherwise you will never get any ink to flow onto the paper.

Edited February 5, 2018 by max dog

[tonybelding]

This is my experience.

I've had several vintage flex nibs, which I think are the only real flex pens/nibs based on what I have read on comments about modern flex. Curiosity took me to shed a few dollars to acquire them, even though I had started with a cheap $20 modern flex pen that many people get to write with in a very flexy mode and I couldn't. SO I moved on to the vintage flex ... My disappointment is great, because IMHO:

 

1- One has to be an expert to write with them

2- One has to spend a lot of time and tons of patience to learn how to use them

3- Then what? Are you going to write an occasional letter with a flex mode handwriting?

IMO: not practical on a day to day basis

 

Your experience is quite different from mine.

 

My new Bock Titan nib is a pretty fair match for my vintage Walh-Eversharp. It's not the most flexible nib I've seen on a fountain pen, but it's in the same ballpark with a lot of vintage nibs.

 

You do not have to be an expert to write with them, nor do you need any practice and patience. Just write normally! That's what they were designed for! (If you are pressing down and making super-wide downstrokes and trying to do copperplate-style effects, then you are doing it wrong. You may not hear it, but your nib is screaming in agony as it dies.)

 

I wouldn't carry one around in my pocket, since they tend to write wet, which means they aren't good on random cheap paper and the ink can take a bit longer to dry. As a desk pen at home where I have my own paper, they're just as practical as anything.